Poll to change track limits system

[Dicra]

Learn to drive between the lines perhaps ? You blame the devs because you or anyone else can't drive between the said parameters? Yeah it's SMS's fault. Right !

We have two possible explanations for this post:
A) You can't read.
B) You can read and think I'm wrong, but you are completely unable to form anything resembling an argument.

Take your pick. ^^

 

[killerjimbag]

We have two possible explanations for this post:
A) You can't read.
B) You can read and think I'm wrong, but you are completely unable to form anything resembling an argument.

Take your pick. ^^

How the hell did I get an S license? I'm wrong. I race every night in online lobbies, with penalties on. So explain to me how I can do it and you can't. I race with the same guys every night. Damage, penalties on and we manage to do it. So perhaps its your end! I'm at work right now. You can gladly join me in a room tonight at approximately 11:30 PM EST
My psn is in my profile

 

[Dicra]

How the hell did I get an S license? I'm wrong. I race every night in online lobbies, with penalties on. So explain to me how I can do it and you can't. I race with the same guys every night. Damage, penalties on and we manage to do it. So perhaps its your end! I'm at work right now. You can gladly join me in a room tonight at approximately 11:30 PM EST
My psn is in my profile

What the hell?
I write a post where I outline how the cutting system is inconsistent, unfair, overly harsh and unrealistic.
You reply with: "Stay within the white lines" in a very condescending way.
I tell you that this wasn't what I was on about and imply that you should either reread my post or reconsider the way you argue.
You reply with: "Race me, dammit!"

See, this is not how that works. You don't get to evade every single point I made with generic statements and then feel like you've won an argument because you're pulling ridiculous challenges out of your a** that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
All you've proven until now is the fact that you are unable to form a coherent argument. I challenge you to try and argue on a rational, non-petulant level. That'd actually prove your point, which your challenge doesn't in any way.

The only thing you managed to counter somewhat is that the corner system being bad is diminishing the racing experience significantly - but that's personal preference, therefore you can't really argue about it, especially not the way you have done it.

Also, this challenge you just set up is blatantly unfair, because I have no chance to prepare, no chance to set any rules while you define every relevant parameter. I can win that kind of challenges, too, y'know.

But I fear, judging by your behaviour up 'till now, that you will be unable to understand this post as well.

 

[killerjimbag]

What the hell?
I write a post where I outline how the cutting system is inconsistent, unfair, overly harsh and unrealistic.
You reply with: "Stay within the white lines" in a very condescending way.
I tell you that this wasn't what I was on about and imply that you should either reread my post or reconsider the way you argue.
You reply with: "Race me, dammit!"

See, this is not how that works. You don't get to evade every single point I made with generic statements and then feel like you've won an argument because you're pulling ridiculous challenges out of your a** that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
All you've proven until now is the fact that you are unable to form a coherent argument. I challenge you to try and argue on a rational, non-petulant level. That'd actually prove your point, which your challenge doesn't in any way.

Also, this challenge you just set up is blatantly unfair, because I have no chance to prepare, no chance to set any rules while you define every relevant parameter. I can win that kind of challenges, too, y'know.

But I fear, judging by your behaviour up 'till now, that you will be unable to understand this post as well.

I'm not asking you to race me.Were did I say that? So if you stay between the lines you will not get a penalty correct. I, as well as the people I race with seem to be able to race without hardly getting penalties. How is it possible? People have clearly explained to you. They said it was fine. Explained how to get less of a penalty
Then you went off telling him it's not fine. Your entiteled to your opinion. Don't expect everyone to like it.

 

[Dicra]

I'm not asking you to race me. I , as well as the people I race with seem to be able to race without hardly getting penalties. How is it possible? People have clearly explained to you. They said it was fine. Explained how to get less of a penalty
Then you went off telling him it's not fine. Your entiteled to your opinion. Don't expect everyone to like it.

No, I don't expect everyone to like it. I expect people that try to argue against it to be capable of actually arguing, instead of whatever the hell you're doing right now.

What you've been doing is telling me how to work around the flawed cutting system. That's also what the post I quoted did. The cutting system is flawed, so you have to stay between the white lines all the time, which you don't have to in any real life series (just look at F1 or GT3 hotlaps). The cutting system is penalising you too harshly, so you have to slow down next to the track in order to lessen the effect.

That's not arguing against the fact that the cutting system is flawed. That's telling me how to live with it and still get some resemblance of enjoyment from the game, but you shouldn't need to do that.

Of course, staying within the white line all the times results in not getting a penalty - but most of these penalties you shouldn't even get in the first place, because they are unrealistically harsh and more often than not, wholly unjustified as there was no advantage. Of course, slowing down next to the track helps a bit, but if I do that, I actually have a disadvantage - and STILL get a penalty added on top of it, which is stupid. These are actual FLAWS in the penalty system that need to be ironed out or, at least, lessened, because at the moment, it's painfully obvious that the cutting system doesn't have anything to do with real racing.

THAT is my point. Argue against that, if you really think it's wrong (which, I assure you, is impossible, because I'm objectively right - the cutting system IS unrealistic and unfair. The only thing you can argue about is, as I already said in my first post (!), how much you are disturbed by the cutting system. Some, like you, aren't at all, and some, like me, are.).

EDIT: And yes, you can of course practice so you get to grips with the system and only get some rare penalties. However, wouldn't it be far better if you didn't have to do that, didn't have to limit your driving style, and could instead enjoy a somewhat realistic and fair system?

 

[jake2013guy]

No it's not "fine", and don't let the devs think for one SECOND that it's anywhere near "fine". This is not a matter of opinion - the penalty system is objectively awful, it's just a matter of opinion how much this disturbs you.

The penalty system as it's right now penalises you harshly even if you've already lost time, is inconsistent, forces you to give positions back even when that doesn't make any sense, the time penalties are all over the place (sometimes you get five seconds, sometimes SIXTEEN out of nowhere), it's far harsher than anything we ever saw in real life (which is an issue because SMS want to deliver a sim, not some fantasy game AND because they're expecting more from their gamers than anyone would dare to expect from real race drivers), it prevents you from looking for the limit because one slowdown penalty can RUIN a race, prevents you from leaving space to other cars for the same reason, in short: It prevents you from racing.

It's as far from fine as anyone could possibly imagine, this is an incredible mess that diminishes the experience of the game significantly should you dare to turn it on.

The cutting system as it is now is EASILY the worst thing about Project CARS 2 (and I have raced the AI, so that's not a statement to be taken lightly, because the AI is a catastrophe as well).

The worst thing about it is that I actually enjoy Project CARS 2. For me it's about the best package I could have wished for - but the cutting system is on DRUGS, simple as that.

And no, just because you can do some bull**** to make the bull**** a slight bit less bull****ty, it doesn't get any better.

EDIT: Also, the fact that being rewarded for slowing down earlier is a thing completely undermines having a cutting system where the player can decide when to slow down. It's just not thought through at all.

Wow. I clearly hit a nerve by stating my opinion 9 days ago.

We have two possible explanations for this post:
A) You can't read.
B) You can read and think I'm wrong, but you are completely unable to form anything resembling an argument.

Take your pick. ^^

I have one possible explanation for this post.

A) You don't understand what an opinion is.

 

[Dicra]

Wow. I clearly hit a nerve by stating my opinion 9 days ago.

Why, yes, of course. Because I felt that opinion to be wholly unexplicable when I read it (which was today), and also thought that you were heavily overusing understatement.

I have one possible explanation for this post.

A) You don't understand what an opinion is.

Really? Nothing in this post points to me not understanding the concept of subjectivity. This statement is not even funny, it's just playing dumb while trying to be funny. But - and that is something very few people on the internet seem to grasp - saying "it's an opinion" doesn't mean what you spill out can't be attacked - or is worth anything at all, really.

 

[killerjimbag]

No, I don't expect everyone to like it. I expect people that try to argue against it to be capable of actually arguing, instead of whatever the hell you're doing right now.

What you've been doing is telling me how to work around the flawed cutting system. That's also what the post I quoted did. The cutting system is flawed, so you have to stay between the white lines all the time, which you don't have to in any real life series (just look at F1 or GT3 hotlaps). The cutting system is penalising you too harshly, so you have to slow down next to the track in order to lessen the effect.

That's not arguing against the fact that the cutting system is flawed. That's telling me how to live with it and still get some resemblance of enjoyment from the game, but you shouldn't need to do that.

Of course, staying within the white line all the times results in not getting a penalty - but most of these penalties you shouldn't even get in the first place, because they are unrealistically harsh and more often than not, wholly unjustified as there was no advantage. Of course, slowing down next to the track helps a bit, but if I do that, I actually have a disadvantage - and STILL get a penalty added on top of it, which is stupid. These are actual FLAWS in the penalty system that need to be ironed out or, at least, lessened, because at the moment, it's painfully obvious that the cutting system doesn't have anything to do with real racing.

THAT is my point. Argue against that, if you really think it's wrong (which, I assure you, is impossible, because I'm objectively right - the cutting system IS unrealistic and unfair. The only thing you can argue about is, as I already said in my first post (!), how much you are disturbed by the cutting system. Some, like you, aren't at all, and some, like me, are.).

EDIT: And yes, you can of course practice so you get to grips with the system and only get some rare penalties. However, wouldn't it be far better if you didn't have to do that, didn't have to limit your driving style, and could instead enjoy a somewhat realistic and fair system?

Ok I get it. You seem to think you cannot drive off the track. Clearly your playing a different game than me. I don't know if it's your driving style,peripheral you use or whatever. If you stay "within" the parameters of the penalty system it's fine. If not turn them off and go horticultural driving.

 

[Dicra]

Ok I get it. You seem to think you cannot drive off the track. Clearly your playing a different game than me. I don't know if it's your driving style,peripheral you use or whatever. If you stay "within" the parameters of the penalty system it's fine. If not turn them off and go horticultural driving.

I'll continue horticultural driving, thanks. ^^ (Though that assumption is unjustified, it did make me chuckle.)
However, you're right, my phrasing was inaccurate, as you can sometimes get away with leaving the track without getting a penalty. I still uphold that the cutting system is A) very inconsistent in how much leeway it gives you and B) generally too harsh in most corners, especially with the amount of time you have to slow down for the slightest infraction and C) far too harsh when it comes to simple driver errors that already cost time.

 

[killerjimbag]

I'll continue horticultural driving, thanks. ^^ (Though that assumption is unjustified, it did make me chuckle.)
However, you're right, my phrasing was inaccurate, as you can sometimes get away with leaving the track without getting a penalty. I still uphold that the cutting system is A) very inconsistent in how much leeway it gives you and B) generally too harsh in most corners and C) far too harsh when it comes to simple driver errors that already cost time.

Thanks. Learn were you can go off and can't. Cutting is actually what you shouldn't do and there for the penalty is correct.Yes it mostly comes down to our errors not the Dev's

 

[EddyHawk]

The only issue is when a car spin or crash in the middle of the track and you get forced to pass him going off track and you get the penalty of "return to position", this makes no sense!!, but other than that, I like the track limits and I've never had problems with that, when you get a slowdown you dont need to brake, just stop pressing the accelerator, and when you are close to a curve you can use the curve to brake and comply the penalty.

 

[LennyB]

At the time of writing this it looks like over two thirds of people want a change to the system, so far.

I think it's important to check the total number of votes however they are cast, 50 votes total? OK.

 

[killerjimbag]

I think it's important to check the total number of votes however they are cast, 50 votes total? OK.

Yes thank You! People who don't own the game. Really get's "Under my skin".

 

[Hilazza]

In some cases i don't mind the track limits. In other cases its downright annoying and stupid.

The most annyoing bit is when you go off and lose time. Then when you come back on you are told to slow down.
For what? Thats complete BS.

 

[mattikake]

Even ESports calibre drivers have voiced problems with the track limits and track limits penalties.



You only need to get 1 penalty for it to ruin a close race, especially considering in real life you get warnings for repeated cuts at the same point (implying deliberation) before any action is taken. You have to admit, his misdemeanour was minor, cost him time anyway, but due to the penalty, it was race over. All he could do is hope the other guy made the same mistake. Given the obvious calibre, there was no chance. All the track limits succeeded in doing was killing the race.

It's too much to spend a race trying not to get a track cutting penalty that you do not actually race the guy in front but end up racing against the game's mechanics. It might as well be time trials.

 

[MABlosfeld]

Pcars is a racing game with the proposal to be SIMULATOR, you can play without rules and penalties, just for fun. Long time ago I lost the feeling of trust.

edit: The only game I take seriously is real life, digital games I just play, with respect of course.

 

[killerjimbag]

Even ESports calibre drivers have voiced problems with the track limits and track limits penalties.



You only need to get 1 penalty for it to ruin a close race, especially considering in real life you get warnings for repeated cuts at the same point (implying deliberation) before any action is taken. You have to admit, his misdemeanour was minor, cost him time anyway, but due to the penalty, it was race over. All he could do is hope the other guy made the same mistake. Given the obvious calibre, there was no chance. All the track limits succeeded in doing was killing the race.

It's too much to spend a race trying not to get a track cutting penalty that you do not actually race the guy in front but end up racing against the game's mechanics. It might as well be time trials.

Yeah it was so bad he can't wait for the next race. Did you notice he didn't go off track again!

 

[MABlosfeld]

the track limit system should be the same as the video (go to 4:30 sec)



When you exceed the limit of tracks, the penalty is automatically applied because you will waste time trying to control the car in order to return the race without damage.
All corners can implement jumps, some places with escape area, the gravel holds the car slowing down preventing a crash, in this case the gravel serves to save and not prevent you back to the track and the penalty is applied automatically, Perfect.

look what happens when you cross the line:

 

[The_American]

and what should have been the solution for Tilke-tracks like COTA? Add gravel, walls, barriers and jumps where they do not exist in reality?

 

[Morgoth_666]

and what should have been the solution for Tilke-tracks like COTA? Add gravel, walls, barriers and jumps where they do not exist in reality?

That's what a lot of games do *cough*PD*cough*.

And the answer is no, please don't do that.




I have heard some troubling things particularly in regards to passing crashed cars or when losing significant time yet still being penalized(would be an even worse problem if it were to result in a drive-through). Making sure to avoid penalties does not change the quality of the penalties themselves of course. But I don't have enough experience to have an opinion yet, the little bit I've played I did not get any penalties I didn't deserve. That will change soon I'm sure.

 

[MABlosfeld]

and what should have been the solution for Tilke-tracks like COTA? Add gravel, walls, barriers and jumps where they do not exist in reality?

implement only in places that exist in reality, other locations could be implemented a bit of loss of grip and control, this way the penalty is applied the moment you slow down to keep your car in competition.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Even ESports calibre drivers have voiced problems with the track limits and track limits penalties.



You only need to get 1 penalty for it to ruin a close race, especially considering in real life you get warnings for repeated cuts at the same point (implying deliberation) before any action is taken. You have to admit, his misdemeanour was minor, cost him time anyway, but due to the penalty, it was race over. All he could do is hope the other guy made the same mistake. Given the obvious calibre, there was no chance. All the track limits succeeded in doing was killing the race.

It's too much to spend a race trying not to get a track cutting penalty that you do not actually race the guy in front but end up racing against the game's mechanics. It might as well be time trials.

So what is your solution to this "problem"?

As @killerjimbag alluded to, I think you are being misleading when you use this video as an example of Esports calibre drivers having "problems with track limits". Jardier literally says he's very happy with his position, can't wait for the next race. He says he's a bit nervous about a couple of places at Hockenheim that have a high risk reward tradeoff but so what? That's racing. It wouldn't be any different if the same situation existed with a slippery or rough curb on the outside of a fast corner, or a sausage curb on the inside that torpedoed your suspension. The closer you can get to the limit without going over, the more successful you are going to be. It's the same for everyone and the track limits are well known. If you go over the limit and take a penalty you're simply going too fast or aren't consistent enough.

 

[killerjimbag]

So what is your solution to this "problem"?

As @killerjimbag alluded to, I think you are being misleading when you use this video as an example of Esports calibre drivers having "problems with track limits". Jardier literally says he's very happy with his position, can't wait for the next race. He says he's a bit nervous about a couple of places at Hockenheim that have a high risk reward tradeoff but so what? That's racing. It wouldn't be any different if the same situation existed with a slippery or rough curb on the outside of a fast corner, or a sausage curb on the inside that torpedoed your suspension. The closer you can get to the limit without going over, the more successful you are going to be. It's the same for everyone and the track limits are well known. If you go over the limit and take a penalty you're simply going too fast or aren't consistent enough.

Or perhaps not skilled enough to stay on the track!

 

[fernandito]

In the beginning i kinda despised the new harsh penalty limits, or perhaps more than the limits, the nature of the penalties themselves.

However, you eventually find out that the moment you go wide and set all your wheels outside the track limits, all you have to do in order to avoid the damned slow down message is to lift the throttle until you enter the track again, and if you feel the system might still warn you then just downshift one gear, and the slowdown message will not appear.

Another story is that there are some particular sections were the system might very well be too harsh with the limits, such as one point at Bathurst in particular.

I already got used to the penalty limits and can race without trouble, and actually fear the changes in this area that are forthcoming in the next patch. Did you enter too fast in one corner and put the car outside the track for a moment?, just follow the recommendation in the second paragraph and you're 99% guaranteed the slowdown warning to not pop up at all, with a couple of exceptions at the aforementioned track in the paragraph above and another particular harsh track limit at any other random track.

 

[MABlosfeld]

The system that controls the lane limit is perfect, what I think is that how the penalty is applied could be improved. I think it could be better implemented the "out of bounds of the track".

 

[Sloppy Shades]

Could someone throw the ball back onto the pitch please? I came here to watch the footie not kickboxing!

 

[mattikake]

So what is your solution to this "problem"?

I gave some opening ideas in the OP. I was hoping some others might have some ideas too.

More intelligence and more leniency, like real life. The overall impression I get is SMS have the default view that everyone cheats and no-one makes mistakes. IME the reverse is true. If SMS want to get rid of public lobby cheaters there's no need to have track limits anywhere near as tight because the cheaters cut the track completely - cut entire corners. Honest racers don't. So what they have succeeded in doing is punishing the many honest racers in order to get the few cheaters.

If they want to get the cheaters then the track limits can be more off the track - monitoring entire corner cutting by moving the off track limits zones more off the track, instead of half a car over the white line. You see this done in many other types of racing games where they aim to keep the racing close.

Ultimately PC2 is trying to be a "simulation" and while it does that in a lot of areas, it doesn't when it comes to the track limits and the track limits penalties. e.g. I couldn't attack the track at Silverstone in PC2 as I can in real life because I wouldn't be allowed to use as much kerb. That's not simulating real life, it's also no natural.

btw read some of the comments in that Esport vid. A large proportion are moaning about track limits.

As @killerjimbag alluded to, I think you are being misleading when you use this video as an example of Esports calibre drivers having "problems with track limits".

I don't think so. At 12:00 in he "cheats" and spends the next 3 - 5 minutes complaining about it in between driving, calling it "a major flaw which everybody hates", "was it neccesary?", "that was terrible", "too strict", "I already made a mistake", "all my videos are about slowdowns". It killed the race. He already lost a second or so from the mistake after the mechanics sucked him onto the dirt. It's the same view most people have.

In fact that could be a way of implementing a better penalty system - sucking you off the track more to cost you a bit of extra time, but then not to hit you with a further a penalty

Another extreme e.g. is the instant DSQ for speeding in the pitlane. No motorsport has such a penalty. It's not simulating real life. The instant DSQ is a harsh penalty that implies deliberate cheating as the default view or "any old penalty will do... [to meet the release date]".

IRL you are given a few chances if cutting a corner, before a warning and then before a penalty. It's not instant as in PC2. It's not simulating real life.

Another e.g. of the feeling I get of "disdain for the players" is that it's not documented how the track limits penalties work - such as lifting immediately and/or a downshift. Handy to know! It would be more handy to know in advance that's how it works. The fact that you're not told anything implies they do not care what you were doing at the moment a penalty is imposed, only that you should get one because any misdemeanour is 100% cheating regardless if you were trying to or not.

People make mistakes - players to real drivers - intelligence is applied to determine if it was a mistake or cheating. So the track limits system, IMO, is too strict, too absolute, not intelligent enough and... does not simulate real life as well as it could. And it can. It's a computer system and you can get it to do anything you like as long as you have 1) data and 2) put in the effort. They have the data. All they need is the effort.

Again, arguable evidence of a rushed product. But it's being patched repeatedly so there's no harm in airing that in the hope that PC2 can become more complete and a much fairer and enjoyable racing simulation experience.

edit: and as an update it looks like 71% in the poll want change.

 

[Mr Tree]

People make mistakes - players to real drivers - intelligence is applied to determine if it was a mistake or cheating. So the track limits system, IMO, is too strict, too absolute, not intelligent enough and... does not simulate real life as well as it could. And it can. It's a computer system and you can get it to do anything you like as long as you have 1) data and 2) put in the effort. They have the data. All they need is the effort.

You missed one main part as a requirement, computingpower, also financial rescourses, and many more realworld factors...

As currently on ps4 the system is strained as much as it allready is where do you suggest to get the computingpower to have a log that saves your mistakes and the bigger issue I think, to check that database of your mistakes that race everytime you make a mistake?

In short that intire paragraph was a strawmanfallacy and your conclusions following out of it dhoyld therefor be re-examined (not saying you're wrong on the rushed part, this is just a very bad reason to believe so)

 

[DesertPenguin]

edit: and as an update it looks like 71% in the poll want change.

K

 

[Johnnypenso]

I gave some opening ideas in the OP. I was hoping some others might have some ideas too.

More intelligence and more leniency, like real life. The overall impression I get is SMS have the default view that everyone cheats and no-one makes mistakes. IME the reverse is true. If SMS want to get rid of public lobby cheaters there's no need to have track limits anywhere near as tight because the cheaters cut the track completely - cut entire corners. Honest racers don't. So what they have succeeded in doing is punishing the many honest racers in order to get the few cheaters..
If they want to get the cheaters then the track limits can be more off the track - monitoring entire corner cutting by moving the off track limits zones more off the track, instead of half a car over the white line. You see this done in many other types of racing games where they aim to keep the racing close.

While I'd agree that the system could be better, much better, your argument loses value to me when you make it personal, which is what you're doing when you assign a speculative motivation to SMS as a reason for the track limits being what they are. Talk about the track limits and how they could be better while at the same time not disparaging the company that made the game.

Ultimately PC2 is trying to be a "simulation" and while it does that in a lot of areas, it doesn't when it comes to the track limits and the track limits penalties. e.g. I couldn't attack the track at Silverstone in PC2 as I can in real life because I wouldn't be allowed to use as much kerb. That's not simulating real life, it's also no natural.

btw read some of the comments in that Esport vid. A large proportion are moaning about track limits.

You'd also be more convincing if you didn't make up facts hoping no one will verify them. To me a "large proportion" would be approaching 50%. If I counted correctly I see 5 comments/replies about the track limits out of 38. That's 13%, hardly a "large proportion". If I take out your negative comments it's only 3/38 which is 8%

I don't think so. At 12:00 in he "cheats" and spends the next 3 - 5 minutes complaining about it in between driving, calling it "a major flaw which everybody hates", "was it neccesary?", "that was terrible", "too strict", "I already made a mistake", "all my videos are about slowdowns". It killed the race. He already lost a second or so from the mistake after the mechanics sucked him onto the dirt. It's the same view most people have.

I agree it could be better. A penalty isn't necessary there at all.

Another extreme e.g. is the instant DSQ for speeding in the pitlane. No motorsport has such a penalty. It's not simulating real life. The instant DSQ is a harsh penalty that implies deliberate cheating as the default view or "any old penalty will do... [to meet the release date]".

I agree you shouldn't be DQ'd for speeding in the pitlane. But you reveal your thinly veiled agenda with the latter part of this quote and again you lose me, and I presume many others. You don't know why things are the way they are and speculating about it just makes you look like a troll.

Another e.g. of the feeling I get of "disdain for the players" is that it's not documented how the track limits penalties work - such as lifting immediately and/or a downshift. Handy to know! It would be more handy to know in advance that's how it works. The fact that you're not told anything implies they do not care what you were doing at the moment a penalty is imposed, only that you should get one because any misdemeanour is 100% cheating regardless if you were trying to or not.

Disdain for players is a ludicrous assumption. Again, you reveal your agenda and it clouds the rest of your point.

People make mistakes - players to real drivers - intelligence is applied to determine if it was a mistake or cheating. So the track limits system, IMO, is too strict, too absolute, not intelligent enough and... does not simulate real life as well as it could. And it can. It's a computer system and you can get it to do anything you like as long as you have 1) data and 2) put in the effort. They have the data. All they need is the effort.

There is no AI in the world that can determine intent which is what's necessary if you want to establish mistake or cheating. You can measure laptimes and see if an advantage is gained but you can't determine a person's intent. This is why you can't have exceptions to the rule, except perhaps at the discretion of the race organizer. If you allow some penalty situations to go unpunished, even with perfect track limits, inevitably people will use that exception to their advantage, like cutting chicanes on the last lap.

Again, arguable evidence of a rushed product. But it's being patched repeatedly so there's no harm in airing that in the hope that PC2 can become more complete and a much fairer and enjoyable racing simulation experience.

Again you reveal your personal agenda. All games are patched repeatedly and the fact that this one is, is not evidence of it being "rushed", whatever that means.

edit: and as an update it looks like 71% in the poll want change.

You have two no's and two yes's and one of the no's is in effect a yes. One of the no questions is identical to the yes question. The third question isn't a standalone answer because it could be combined with either 2 or 4. One of the worst worded polls I've ever seen on GTP.