Polyphony has lost the plot.

[GTWelsh]

Someone above made a comment about them not enabling tuning. Let me just say, this is a test series at the moment, and they may enable it in later stages (races become weekly very soon, check the calendar) or maybe even in the next series. People talk about what happened yesterday like it's set in stone that way forever.

 

[TCG]

Does anyone else get the feeling that PD are not even convinced or even sure of their own product?

 

[eran0004]

Point 3: Again, eSport emulating real life racing is their stated goal.

This is the first time I've heard of such a goal for GT Sport. Where did you see that?

 

[Foxis]

You're sounding like you want it tailoring to your specific needs/expectations and youcomplain about PDs unclear strategy, but I cannot seem to grasp the point you are trying to make. You are all over the place. You're going round in circles (to me at least).

Not at all. My point, again, is that PD should make up their minds about how the features/content will work and then stick to it. If I do not like it I will quit, if I like it I will stick around. Simple as that.

But (and for the umpteenth time), right now they are changing everything around very rapidly. Hardly a day goes by without a change. That signals that they do not know what they are doing, and likely are not even patient enough to wait for a larger data set before committing to changes. They appear desperate.

 

[Foxis]

This is the first time I've heard of such a goal for GT Sport. Where did you see that?

It has been implied in numerous articles/interviews over the years. Did you get another impression?

Does anyone else get the feeling that PD are not even convinced or even sure of their own product?

My point exactly. But you managed to express it far more efficiently than me apparently.

 

[eran0004]

It has been implied in numerous articles/interviews over the years. Did you get another impression?

Do you have an example? Because I can't remember reading anything like that.

 

[JockeP22]

- Weekly, then biweekly, then daily races. Tuning, then no tuning, then fixed, then garage.
- Daily laps: few, then longer, then fewer again.
- Championships, nations cup: First garage cars, then..one make? First quite a few laps (10+) then what...5?
- Excellent qualifying system for the championships....but SEVEN minutes for the quali session...?

There was also a third championship in the game called the Polyphony Championship which was removed without a trace before the first round and no mention of why.

 

[Stotty]

First off: Thank you for (probably) the first post in the thread that actually discusses the topic! I mean it - thanks!

As for point 1 & 2: No, we do not have their data. But you and I seem to agree that they are reacting to player behaviour. So, if participation goes down they will adjust "stuff" to attempt to get it to go back up. This has two problems:
1) The participation may be due to other factors beyond their control.
2) It leaves the actual development of the game in the hands of reaction to metrics, rather than a vision. Which is my entire point. PD does not know what they want beyond a game that sells. The eSport attempt is mostly just marketing.

Point 3: Again, eSport emulating real life racing is their stated goal. I - and probably many others - interpreted that as meaning just that. I fail to find one RL racing championship where lengths and car types are mixed throughout the season. Granted, this may just be a test, and some of us may have misinterpreted PDs goal for this "sport", so I will just leave that up in the air.

Point 4: It should be the length PD decides is suitable, based on the sport they emulate and concessions made for the fact that it is not RL. But they should not be changing it around based on people whining on forums or deciding not to partake.

So, again: PD should make their minds up regarding what they actually want the sport to look like, then just let that be it. Now they're just falling over themselves trying to experiment their way to the magic formula that will ensure that *everyone* will like the Sport mode. It just will not happen.

I work for a Global corporation. We sell >$70bn of everyday household products every year. I've worked for the company for nearly 30 years, so I believe I understand our macro strategy very well, and I personally have a vast experience of new product development and launches acquired over my 30 years service... some have been super successful, some have failed.

We always start with a vision when we bring something new to market. This vision is always based on the shopper. We use masses of shopper data when developing our new products. And yet, even with all of this, we often miss the mark.

Recognising this early, and adjusting strategy is vital in ensuring a product wins in the market place.

 

[Foxis]

Do you have an example? Because I can't remember reading anything like that.

Pease note that I am not claiming someone stated that verbatim.
But since PD first started flirting with online, they have implied that is what they are going for. I can't find the interviews which formed my impression, but search a bit and you will find quotes like this one:
"We are excited to partner for this official FIA world championship because gaming deserves that. It's a true sport, it deserves to be treated like a true motorsport and we want to be at the forefront of that.”

He keeps on referencing real motorsport over and over, and for his game then to basically throw most constants in real motorsport out the window is quite puzzling. To me at least.

 

[Foxis]

I work for a Global corporation. We sell >$70bn of everyday household products every year. I've worked for the company for nearly 30 years, so I believe I understand our macro strategy very well, and I personally have a vast experience of new product development and launches acquired over my 30 years service... some have been super successful, some have failed.

We always start with a vision when we bring something new to market. This vision is always based on the shopper. We use masses of shopper data when developing our new products. And yet, even with all of this, we often miss the mark.

Recognising this early, and adjusting strategy is vital in ensuring a product wins in the market place.

I would argue that game development is very different. Short lead times to changes can be a blessing, but also a curse. If you are too reactive to community/player demands or data, you will end up with a very unfocused product. There are numerous examples of this. Some developers have even posted so called "post mortums" where they identified reacting to player demands as one of the larger mistakes (see Rust for example).

I am not saying they should not react. But they have to communicate intent.

To use your company as a continued analogy: If you changed your consumer products around too rapidly, I am sure that in itself would lead to failure as you would have confused customers. A confused customer is very seldom a good thing in my experience (even though I only have 20 years in my career ;-) ).

 

[TCG]

I would just like to know what PD have been doing since GTS was announced. It seems a little late to still be fiddling with THE CORE GAME. Either stand by your product and it’s vision or realise the product has no vision and delay it’s release.

GTS has damaged the GT brand. It’s not ruined, but for a powerhouse title there is just no sense of confidence in its own product, and for a brand like GT that hurts, a lot.

 

[Stotty]

I would argue that game development is very different. Short lead times to changes can be a blessing, but also a curse. If you are too reactive to community/player demands or data, you will end up with a very unfocused product. There are numerous examples of this. Some developers have even posted so called "post mortums" where they identified reacting to player demands as one of the larger mistakes (see Rust for example).

I am not saying they should not react. But they have to communicate intent.

To use your company as a continued analogy: If you changed your consumer products around too rapidly, I am sure that in itself would lead to failure as you would have confused customers. A confused customer is very seldom a good thing in my experience (even though I only have 20 years in my career ;-) ).

'NEW' is the life blood of keeping the consumer interested in most categories (attention spans get shorter every year).

I still don't see any issues with the minor tweaks PD have made to the game over the 1st few weeks. It's not like they've completely changed the architecture!

 

[Phoenixsui]

Yep, you prove my point. Everything is changing. All the time. They are just experimenting wildly.

Well for me it was normal to adjust laps for long and short tracks. If they would put 15 laps on the 24h track we would race for to long.
I think they know where to go and most of your arguments in the first post are not even a big problem.
Things like qualy length is maybe something everyone would do different. I managed to be1st and last in 6 Races.
It makes it even more satisfying for me to have a good result after a short time.
Wait 1 month and see what happens.

 

[TCG]

'NEW' is the life blood of keeping the consumer interested in most categories (attention spans get shorter every year).

I still don't see any issues with the minor tweaks PD have made to the game over the 1st few weeks. It's not like they've completely changed the architecture!

I wouldn’t call them “minor tweaks”... literally changing how you play the game more than once isn’t a minor tweak.

 

[RotorHed]

Do you have an example? Because I can't remember reading anything like that.

This from the Gran-turismo.com website?

Sport Mode
Designing the next 100 years of Motorsports

The Sport mode is the future of online racing, proposed by the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) and Gran Turismo. The ‘Advanced Matchmaking System’ matches players with the same level of skill and sportsmanship together, and the BoP (Balance of Performance) will equalize the performance of the race machines, creating a fair and exciting motorsport in an online environment.

 

[Foxis]

'NEW' is the life blood of keeping the consumer interested in most categories (attention spans get shorter every year).

I still don't see any issues with the minor tweaks PD have made to the game over the 1st few weeks. It's not like they've completely changed the architecture!

To continue the analogies: This is not to be compared with a company introducing a NEW ice-cream a couple of times a month. (I would like that). This is more like your favourite ice-cream tasting differently every time you purchase it. Without someone even explaining how it will taste or why they changed it.

 

[Stotty]

To continue the analogies: This is not to be compared with a company introducing a NEW ice-cream a couple of times a month. (I would like that). This is more like your favourite ice-cream tasting differently every time you purchase it. Without someone even explaining how it will taste or why they changed it.

I haven't played GT6 in well over a year. I didn't play the closed beta. I hardly bothered to follow all the lead up to the launch in the GTS forum.

Yet I still knew what game I was getting when I ordered GTS.

Anyone paying even a modicum of attention knew they weren't getting a re-hash/update of GT6.

Jesus H Christ, this is just like 'Who moved my cheese'

 

[PzR Slim]

I would just like to know what PD have been doing since GTS was announced. It seems a little late to still be fiddling with THE CORE GAME. Either stand by your product and it’s vision or realise the product has no vision and delay it’s release.

GTS has damaged the GT brand. It’s not ruined, but for a powerhouse title there is just no sense of confidence in its own product, and for a brand like GT that hurts, a lot.

I agree with this. I can't believe anybody at PD stood back after the game went gold and said, 'Yep we hit that one out of the park.'

 

[Johnnypenso]

What I see here and in many other threads is the inevitable result of PD treating people like mushrooms. You know, kept in the dark and fed 🤬. Okay don't take that literally I don't want any hate mail, but I think what we are seeing has a lot to do with the lack of open lines of communication between PD and it's players. iRacing has come up a lot in this thread so I'll use them as an example. They don't tweak things in iRacing without communicating with the fans. If they are changing something they'll make an announcement with lots of details and reasons why, which problems it addresses, where they are going with it, long term goals etc. Other developers in this genre and other genres do the same with varying degrees of success and, shall we say, geniality. There is no one to ask questions of and no answers forthcoming. The rallying cry is always the same on one side, "Stop whinging, stop being entitled, enjoy the game for what it is, trust PD they are working on it, I enjoy it so shut up", or some variation of the same thing.

In 2017 people have been trained and lead to want and expect communication. Heck, the POTUS communicates directly with his fanbase of 150,000,000 directly every day! (Okay bad example, no hate mail yada yada yada). It's 2017 not 2010 and the patterns have been established. Communication rules the world. Wonderful tools like Twitter and Facebook and the internet in general allow developers the opportunity to communicate directly with the fanbase easily and almost without cost and people have become accustomed to this so much it's gone from a rarity to the norm in just a few years. They have things they want to know and demand answers. Is the DR/SR system going to remain the same or is it going to be tweaked? If so, how and to what end? Why are the daily races moving from weekly to daily? Will it stay the same? Why aren't they mixing them up? Where is the DLC? Why does the FFB keep changing and why can't I calibrate my pedals? Why can't we use our own decals in the livery editor? Why do we need an undocumented changes thread in 2017 why can't you just list all the changes for us? Why is there no app to tie the game into my mobile device and keep me connected to the game? Go through the boards here and there are dozens and dozens of questions on the minds of fans of the franchise. Fans want to know what is happening with their game and where it is going. Whether they "deserve" it or not isn't really the issue. It's quickly becoming the de facto standard to be in constant communication with the fanbase and PD is behind the times in this aspect of gaming.

10 years ago no one expected answers. Some people are still content to take what they get, adapt, learn to like it, like it already, it's just a game, etc. and that's fine - for them. But you have another vocal portion of the fanbase that expects answers like they might get from other franchises, other developers in other genres. They want to know where the game is going, what PD is working on, what is coming next etc. PD treats them like mushrooms at their own risk. Personally I don't think it's an effective strategy in a market where 50% of your lifetime sales will likely occur in the first few weeks after launch.

 

[SleezyBigSlim]

GT Sport has the best foundation of any racing game. With one keystroke PD is able to excite the masses just by giving us what we want in a daily race. In not happy about no tuning in the recent races, but I still played this game four hours last night. When they allow both tuning and garage cars you gave to pry the controller from my hands. Game is crack. I was going to buy Need for Speed today, but it won't get played, didn't expect to like GT Sport this much. Every since I played GT5 Prologue I've wanted this kinda racing in Gran Turismo and they've delivered.

 

[Foxis]

Anyone paying even a modicum of attention knew they weren't getting a re-hash/update of GT6.

Jesus H Christ, this is just like 'Who moved my cheese'

Missing the point AGAIN!
This is not about not knowing what GTS was about, yada yada.

This is about the fact that PD is constantly changing the product after release. (Yes, we are talking about the Sport mode).

You never know what to expect when launching it. So it's like you bought a box of strawberry ice-cream only to find out that during the night, the ice-cream company snuck in and changed the flavour. And as soon as you have adapted to the new flavour...guess what - they change it again.

Capiche?

 

[eran0004]

Pease note that I am not claiming someone stated that verbatim.
But since PD first started flirting with online, they have implied that is what they are going for. I can't find the interviews which formed my impression, but search a bit and you will find quotes like this one:
"We are excited to partner for this official FIA world championship because gaming deserves that. It's a true sport, it deserves to be treated like a true motorsport and we want to be at the forefront of that.”

He keeps on referencing real motorsport over and over, and for his game then to basically throw most constants in real motorsport out the window is quite puzzling. To me at least.

That quote says that gaming deserves to be treated like a true sport. It doesn't say that the game aims to emulate real life racing.

This from the Gran-turismo.com website?

Sport Mode
Designing the next 100 years of Motorsports

The Sport mode is the future of online racing, proposed by the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) and Gran Turismo. The ‘Advanced Matchmaking System’ matches players with the same level of skill and sportsmanship together, and the BoP (Balance of Performance) will equalize the performance of the race machines, creating a fair and exciting motorsport in an online environment.

That says fair and exciting racing - not real life racing.

 

[JulesDennis]

That quote says that gaming deserves to be treated like a true sport. It doesn't say that the game aims to emulate real life racing.



That says fair and exciting racing - not real life racing.

Let me add to those what the title of the game is:
Gran Turismo Sport: The Real Driving Simulator.
Its not "real life racing" but according its title,it is a RL simulator.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That quote says that gaming deserves to be treated like a true sport. It doesn't say that the game aims to emulate real life racing.

Let's see.
It's the real driving simulator.
It's directly tied in with the FIA, the governing body for real motorsport.
The ultimate winner gets to go to the FIA awards dinner to pick up a trophy.
You can get a real life racing license via the game.
Previous competitions within the franchise have led to sim racers becoming real racing drivers.
Real racing drivers, like the current 4 time world champion, Lewis Hamilton, are used to promote the game.

But it doesn't aim to emulate real life racing. Makes sense.

 

[RotorHed]

That quote says that gaming deserves to be treated like a true sport. It doesn't say that the game aims to emulate real life racing.



That says fair and exciting racing - not real life racing.

You’re playing a simulation - it’s impossible for that to be real life. I’m not sure what point you’re making there - it is obvious from that quote that PDs goal was to introduce more realism to their series.

They’re not going to say it in the words you choose though.

 

[eran0004]

Let me add to those what the title of the game is:
Gran Turismo Sport: The Real Driving Simulator.
Its not "real life racing" but according its title,it is a RL simulator.

They used that tagline since 1997. Why would you assume that the continued use of a tagline introduced two decades ago would be an indicator of change?

You’re playing a simulation - it’s impossible for that to be real life. I’m not sure what point you’re making there - it is obvious from that quote that PDs goal was to introduce more realism to their series.

They’re not going to say it in the words you choose though.

I don't know what quote you're reading, but the one you posted earlier says that they match players of equal skill and balance the performance of the cars. Where exactly do you see anything regarding more realism?

The other quote (the one you didn't post) says that they want to raise the status of gaming - there's not a single word there either about realism.

 

[JulesDennis]

They used that tagline since 1997. Why would you assume that the continued use of a tagline introduced two decades ago would be an indicator of change?

Did I say anything about "change"?
You wrote " .... It doesn't say that the game aims to emulate real life racing."
My answer was that the title alone is a clear indicator about that.

 

[eran0004]

Did I say anything about "change"?
You wrote " .... It doesn't say that the game aims to emulate real life racing."
My answer was that the title alone is a clear indicator about that.

It isn't thought, because:

1. None of the previous games have had that aim, even though they had the same tagline.
2. The tagline says "Real Driving" - not "Real Racing".

 

[Foxis]

Regarding whether Kaz/PD has explicitly stated that they want to emulate real racing or not:

We can bicker about this and go dig up supporting evidence for both sides all night, but no matter the outcome this will still hold true:

1. That we even have two points of view regarding the intentions for GTS is in itself proof of my original point: PD has no vision, or if they do they are unable to communicate it. Had they communicated clearly, we would not be having this discussion.

2. @eran0004 , you and others are arguing that GTS is *not* intended to emulate RL racing.
Ok, I can respect the opinion but frankly looking at the product I would argue that everything points to PD going out of their way to give the appearance of wanting to emulate real racing. Most ingredients of real racing is in there, even driver contracts for factory teams(!). Kaz is an self-described petrol head and has taken part in RL races.
Do you think it is credible to claim that the intent is not to emulate RL racing? No offence, but I think that is just a poor defence of the current lacklustre implementation of motorsport by PD,

I wouldn't honestly love to understand what they are trying to accomplish.
They have two test seasons (after one of the seasons mysteriously vanished, without a word). One is extremely rigid (sponsored cars w. no tuning, and you cannot even add a sticker to them). The other is a haphazard mess off different events, mixing cars and track types willy nilly.

Is this representative of the things to come? We have no idea. Because they are not communicating, at all.

I would wager this:
The absolute majority of all GTS customers would like to see a few (3-4, not more) different championships which have some resemblance to the series that exist in RL. They would likely want to drive the same (or similar) cars for the duration of each championship. Besides those, daily (or whatever they become) races with frequent slots.

Which is why I find it absolutely confusing that PD keeps mixing things up without a single word about why. There is absolutely no logic to anything they are doing.
Final proof: The nations cup cars are changing throughout the championship, yet we are stuck with the same car for the daily race (n200/300?). Why oh why?

Anyway, I think everyone knows where I stand now, so I'll just shut up and hope PD wakes up sooner rather than later.

 

[JulesDennis]

It isn't thought, because:

1. None of the previous games have had that aim, even though they had the same tagline.
2. The tagline says "Real Driving" - not "Real Racing".

Really mate?
Your argument is that previous games did not have that aim,even though that is what they said they did?
And that the title says Real Driving Simulator and not Real Racing Simulator?
So,they promote a product as a Real Driving Simulator.Yes or no?
It is a simulator or not?PD claims it is.Its in the title.(I never said they actually do that btw).

"Its not a Racing but driving".Yet PD (already posted) :
"The Sport mode is the future of online racing, proposed by the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) and Gran Turismo. The ‘Advanced Matchmaking System’ matches players with the same level of skill and sportsmanship together, and the BoP (Balance of Performance) will equalize the performance of the race machines, creating a fair and exciting motorsport in an online environment."

So they claim to simulate driving and racing in this product.1+1=2 simple as that.