Polyphony has lost the plot.

[Johnnypenso]

Wow, this is all very petty.

You can report posts for merely being petty? It's subjective and probably miss-use of the feature. I'd be reporting almost everything in here these days.


No problem with the OP my friend It was the posts in here, about things like "is it still a sim if it has fantasy cars". People get all hung up on the term "sim", just play the game .

It's probably best if you don't impute your own emotions onto other posters. Most of us are quite capable of having back and forth discussion without being hung up on something. Worry less about other posters and focus on your own contributions. Or maybe take your own advice and just play the game.

 

[eran0004]

Since this "online racing" is part of the same "driving simulation" it should simulate real life races too.

No, because the system that is simulated is the dynamics of the car. A race weekend is another system, which is why driving simulation is not the same as racing simulation.

[quote It actually have Q sessions,races in tracks/race cars,penalties,Cups so it does simulate "real life races".[/quote]

Some aspects of it, yes. But the question is if it's a stated goal to emulate real life races, and it's not.

E-sports says nothing about realism you are correct.On the other hand "simulation" is about realism.
It "simulate" real life -as best as possible- or try to do that.

"Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time.The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics, behaviors and fuctions of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time."

Yes, a certain system. The car is one system, the race event is another system.

 

[EmArA]

Do we really need to clog up the forum with yet another whining thread that's pretty much the same as every other whining thread?

There's a place for posts like this...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-gt-sport-epic-whining-and-crying-thread.346264/

+1
Usually an admin would merge or even close a thread if there is a similar one. Let’s see how long this will take...

 

[JulesDennis]

Yes, a certain system. The car is one system, the race event is another system.

Ok mate.I agree.With that logic no "sim" is doing that because there is no game (sim) that actually emulate real life races as they are done irl.I mean you dont practice one day,then Q the next and race the day after or Q in the morning and race in the afternoon -example-.
So iRacing or F1 or GTS (for that matter) are not racing sims but only "driving around a track sims".
So pretty much,every company that uses the "motorsports simulation" -or similar- tag in their product are not actually doing that,they dont aim for that and they are not "racing" or "motorsport simulators".

 

[eran0004]

Ok mate.I agree.With that logic no "sim" is doing that because there is no game (sim) that actually emulate real life races as they are done irl.I mean you dont practice one day,then Q the next and race the day after or Q in the morning and race in the afternoon -example-.
So iRacing or F1 or GTS (for that matter) are not racing sims but only "driving around a track sims".
So pretty much,every company that uses the "motorsports simulation" -or similar- tag in their product are not actually doing that,they dont aim for that and they are not "racing" or "motorsport simulators".

You don't have to replicate every single aspect of a system to be able to call it a simulation. One aspect is enough. You can make an airline simulation that only simulates the boarding of passengers and then skip to different airports without actually doing any flying what so ever. That is a perfectly valid simulation.

iRacing, F1 and GTS are all racing simulations. The difference between them is their scope in terms of what aspects they are simulating and to what level of detail.

What we're discussing here, to bring you back on topic, is whether or not it is a stated goal of Gran Turismo Sport to emulate real life racing, i.e. making the actual race events highly similar to the real life events. That includes cars, race length, damage, fuel consumption and tyre wear, pit stop mechanics, weather and time, rules and flags, penalties and probably some other things as well.

The fact that the tag line is "The Real Driving Simulator" - which it has been since 1997 - doesn't say anything about that. Partly because strictly speaking it only mentions the actual driving aspects of the game, and partly because no previous game in the series has been about emulating real life racing to a high degree, so we can say with certainty that the use of this tag line is not an indicator of such a goal.

 

[JulesDennis]

iRacing, F1 and GTS are all racing simulations. The difference between them is their scope in terms of what aspects they are simulating and to what level of detail.

With that said,I rest my case.If all these titles are racing simulations then they must aim to emulate real life racing,since its what simulators do:imitate "the operation of a real-world process or system over time".
I already said,how succesfull those simulations are is another topic.

 

[eran0004]

With that said,I rest my case.If all these titles are racing simulations then they must aim to emulate real life racing,since its what simulators do:imitate "the operation of a real-world process or system over time".
I already said,how succesfull those simulations are is another topic.

Some aspects of a selected system, yes.

But we're not debating whether or not GT Sport is a simulator, we're debating whether or not it's a stated goal of GT Sport to emulate real life racing. With that comes different criteria than the criteria for merely calling it a simulation:

1. It actually needs to be a stated goal. They must have said somewhere that this is what they aim for with GT Sport.
2. The simulation needs to replicate some real life racing event to a certain degree.

Regarding the second criteria, this is what we're talking about:

"Point 3: Again, eSport emulating real life racing is their stated goal. I - and probably many others - interpreted that as meaning just that. I fail to find one RL racing championship where lengths and car types are mixed throughout the season. Granted, this may just be a test, and some of us may have misinterpreted PDs goal for this "sport", so I will just leave that up in the air."​

According to this, GT Sport is not emulating real life racing, because in real life racing championships car types and race lengths are not mixed throughout the season. So while GT Sport certainly is a simulator, it doesn't - according to the above - emulate real life racing.

Regarding the first criteria, there needs to be a statement saying that they aimed to do the second criteria.

The tagline doesn't say that they stated a goal to do this. The fact that it's simulating some aspects of racing doesn't say that they stated a goal to do this. The fact that it's a simulator doesn't say that they stated a goal to do this. The fact that it's online racing doesn't day that they stated a goal to do this. The fact that FIA is involved doesn't say that they stated a goal to do this.

There is no statement of such a goal. It was speculated when the FIA collaboration was announced, but that's all there ever was to it.

 

[kjeldsen]

Spring Cleaning

 

[JulesDennis]

Some aspects of a selected system, yes.

But we're not debating whether or not GT Sport is a simulator, we're debating whether or not it's a stated goal of GT Sport to emulate real life racing. With that comes different criteria than the criteria for merely calling it a simulation:

1. It actually needs to be a stated goal. They must have said somewhere that this is what they aim for with GT Sport.
2. The simulation needs to replicate some real life racing event to a certain degree.

So GTS is a simulation,"a racing simulator" (your words) but one that does not have "a stated goal of to emulate real life racing".
Its either one or the other,cannot be both.Either its a racing simulator or its not.
1.It is a stated goal since its a .... "racing simulator" (again your words).
2.Again it does replicate real life racing to a certain degree:
We have qualifications,races,points according to finish possitions (examples).

According to this, GT Sport is not emulating real life racing, because in real life racing championships car types and race lengths are not mixed throughout the season.

But if

"You don't have to replicate every single aspect of a system to be able to call it a simulation. One aspect is enough"

(your words again) then there is no need to emulate every single aspect of the system,just some parts of that system.GTS does that.

 

[Foxis]

So GTS is a simulation,"a racing simulator" (your words) but one that does not have "a stated goal of to emulate real life racing".
Its either one or the other,cannot be both.Either its a racing simulator or its not.
1.It is a stated goal since its a .... "racing simulator" (again your words).
2.Again it does replicate real life racing to a certain degree:
We have qualifications,races,points according to finish possitions (examples).

But if

(your words again) then there is no need to emulate every single aspect of the system,just some parts of that system.GTS does that.

Since this is my thread I take the liberty to barge in and add my 2 cents:

- I never originally complained about the lack of RL racing emulation per se, that discussion is just a thread detour.
My point was that PD needs to decide what they want to do, stick to it, and most importantly: communicate it. My single point was that they're currently all over the place and not talking.

2. I agree with @eran0004 that GTS can be a racing simulator while still not emulating real racing. Simulating racing (to me) means recreating a racing environment (track, cars, pits, rules, etc.) realistically. Which they have. But to emulate RL racing they need to step further (fixed cars during a season, tuning, preferably wear and damage, etc.). This they currently do not do, and I was frustrated that they seemed to indicate they would but are then just changing their minds all the time.

I have since proven myself wrong in that emulating RL racing is actually something they have stated they do NOT want to do. GTS seems more positioned as a champion for driving and racing in general. Which again is an admirable ambition in an age where more and more teens and young adults frankly do not care much about cars at all.

My personal opinion is that it is a bit of a wasted opportunity as GTS could have been / can be an almost perfect racing simulator for a wide audience with a few tweaks and a firm vision.

But that is just...like...my opinion, man.
(Bonus points to anyone who spots the reference )

 

[JulesDennis]

@Foxis
Simulation:
"Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time".
So its an efford to "emulate" (aka imitate) real life by definition.

 

[Foxis]

@Foxis
Simulation:
"Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time".
So its an efford to "emulate" (aka imitate) real life by definition.

Please keep it civil. No need to quote dictionary entries.

Read my post again. This thread has discussed two separate things:
- Whether GTS is a racing simulator
- Whether GTS simulates RL racing (which was defined by me in an earlier post as simulating such things as a set car per championship, tuning, etc.)

@eran0004 and I both argue that it can certainly simulate racing (i.e. a single race) successfully while not simulating RL racing (as defined by me earlier).

But this is just semantics and quite pointless to discuss further. I quoted Kaz stated intent for GTS, and that is all we need to know really.

 

[eran0004]

@JulesDennis You forget that specific criteria were stipulated:

"Point 3: Again, eSport emulating real life racing is their stated goal. I - and probably many others - interpreted that as meaning just that. I fail to find one RL racing championship where lengths and car types are mixed throughout the season. Granted, this may just be a test, and some of us may have misinterpreted PDs goal for this "sport", so I will just leave that up in the air."
​

That is the level of realism that was asked for, so it's not enough to merely simulate some aspects of real racing.

 

[slowflux]

GTS would be much better if they allowed more time for people to practice before entering a race. The daily racing thing is just stupid and takes away a lot of satisfaction from lots of people I am sure. I think its the worst thing they could have done. If it wants to be a sim allow practice qualifying and race .... it aint rocket science. Now having said that the game is what it is .... and I dont suppose any opinions posted on an internet forum will have the slightest influence ... so we just have to go with it ... or not as the case may be.

 

[JulesDennis]

@Foxis @eran0004
My only point is that a simulation is an efford to emulate real life (one way or another).How well that is done and to what extend is another subject.
If a program is called "racing simulation" its an efford to imitate real life racing.That does not make it good or accurate.

 

[lancia delta hf]

I don't think drawing conclusions as early as now is right. I actually like the fact PD is trying different formulas for the championships/races. Driveclub has taught us that a non-finished game can become wonderful with support from the developpers (both on the technical and gameplay sides). I hope PD is planning to do the same for GTS, actually it's what they said they would do.

So patience my friend.

The game's been out, what, not yet 3 weeks?

Have they got it 100% right at launch? Probably not. Could they be expected to get it right 100% 1st time? Unlikely. Will they need to adjust some things to account for this? Of course.

Play it for what it is, enjoy the good parts, let it develop.

Surely one can and should expect a AAA first party title that was released four years into the PS4s life cycle which only has one platform to deal with to be fully complete and ready on launch day? Particularly one in which essence is online gaming? How long must one wait? As long as the course maker in GT6?

With PDI's History and now this ( the game does not look focused at all to me), how can anyone demand that patience? PDI may come good, in two, three years, who knows? Maybe they will just move on to the next game leaving GTS incomplete and 200 cars instead of the claimed 500 and pretend they never said anything, like absent vision cars in GT6.

They're not trying to force anyone to do anything, buying and playing the game is completely optional..

Correct. Though they would have sold many on name alone to people who have played the series since day one but do not keep up with details. Switch and bait type thing.

As it happens the "audience" must exist because from what I can make out it has sold fairly well.

And not entirely correct. Just look at how many disgruntled buyers there are on amazon. This game was sold by Kaz as being mostly offline, the sales figures do not represent the audience for this new direction.

I will attempt to illustrate my point further using a poor attempt at humor.

PD: Huzzaa. Behold GTS!
Me: So, a new Gran Turismo?
PD: Well, sort of. It's GT *SPORT*. It will become an eSport.

Me: So it's not a game?
PD: Yes, it's a game. But it's a real driving simulation eSport game. Sanctioned by FIA.

Me: It will emulate real GT racing?
PD: Yes. Because Kaz likes GT Racing and is a race driver (well, almost. ssshhh!).

Me: So, practice, setups, qualifying races, rules, custom cars etc?
PD: Yes. Or...wait. Tuning is too hard, so we skipped that. And qualifying is maybe too complex and long for Joe gamer, so we'll do a few minutes before a race. And custom cars seemed like a good idea, but now it's just provided cars or one make races. Because otherwise it could be a bit unfair and people just have really short attention spans.

Me: But people will be forced to compete realistically?
PD: Yes. Or...actually, we will show them 2 videos and hope they actually watch them and understand. And want to be fair. And understand that you can't always win. Or something. Attention spans, you know.

Me: But there will be rules? You do want this to become a sport, right?
PD: Of course. It's the new eSport. Sanctioned by FIA!

Me: So you will have a balanced system to enforce good driving and have some form of moderation / banning of griefers?
PD: Ehrm...well. We have a Sportsmanship rating, but we will not ban anyone.

Me: Why?
PD: They might get angry. FIA does not like when people get angry. And they would not recommend the game...*cough*..sport to their friends.

Me: So let me get this right. It is a game, that wants to be a real driving simulator and a new eSport, that sort of has rules no one will enforce, that attempts to emulate racing, but actually does not. Is that about right?
PD: Well...er...sort of. Kaz likes cake but wants to eat it.


I said it was a poor attempt, but there you have it. I really do think they come across as totally confused regarding what they are attempting to accomplish. As a game it might be fine, but if they are trying to get this to become a competitive eSport that will garner attention and recognition they seriously need to get their act together.

A fair summarization, and spot on about the cake. It was completely unnecessary for Kaz to respond to cynicism with no career mode with "online is only 15%".

 

[Stotty]

Surely one can and should expect a AAA first party title that was released four years into the PS4s life cycle which only has one platform to deal with to be fully complete and ready on launch day? Particularly one in which essence is online gaming? How long must one wait? As long as the course maker in GT6?

My comments were primarily in relation to BOP and on-line ranking/matching system... which they need the players to play the game to fine tune.

 

[lancia delta hf]

My comments were primarily in relation to BOP and on-line ranking/matching system... which they need the players to play the game to fine tune.

Ok, but sure that's what the Beta and demo should have been used for? With such a change to the series and expecting long to fans to buy into it, it should have been sound and solid on day one. There is no career mode or huge car collecting to do to keep people entertained while they sort out sport mode.

 

[PzR Slim]

nvm

 

[JayRS200]

After completing 53% of the game and around 10,000 miles driven between the betas and the main game, I'm fed up with it.

At the momemt it's not a good game. Too many bugs big and small.

I'll give it another go once I've started then completed Wolfystein, and also giving PC2 a go which can't be much worse than GTS surely.

 

[Deadheadbill]

Correct. Though they would have sold many on name alone to people who have played the series since day one but do not keep up with details. Switch and bait type thing.
And not entirely correct. Just look at how many disgruntled buyers there are on amazon. This game was sold by Kaz as being mostly offline, the sales figures do not represent the audience for this new direction.
.

On Amazon:
GT Sport sits at 2.5 stars
Forza 7 sits at 3 stars
Project Cars 2 sits at 3 stars

It seems Amazon buyers are disgruntled at all 3 offerings.

 

[JayRS200]

On Amazon:
GT Sport sits at 2.5 stars
Forza 7 sits at 3 stars
Project Cars 2 sits at 3 stars

It seems Amazon buyers are disgruntled at all 3 offerings.

Personally I wouldn't go by amazon reviews especially on games like this. Too many unfair upvotes and downvotes and 1 star because the game was delivered late by amazon, broken box and things like that.

I think nostalgia comes into play with reviewers too.

I like the question in some review sections would you recommend this to a friend. Sadly I did to some of my online friends because I noticed improvements during the betas. I would not recommend the game now.

 

[iGeaux_Psycho]

On Amazon:
GT Sport sits at 2.5 stars
Forza 7 sits at 3 stars
Project Cars 2 sits at 3 stars

It seems Amazon buyers are disgruntled at all 3 offerings.

I’ve noticed that many reviews on online stores such as amazon and Walmart etc. are placed before the game even comes out often leaving the reviews up to people’s personal bias of the series... I rarely find user reviews as something to trust unfortunately

 

[dabz343]

The OP has legitimate thoughts, especially on PD's communication as they try to find the optimal equation of how GTS is enjoyed. Critical to get right fast if you ask me, given their strategic shift to reinvent themselves from past GT titles.

They have a closing window of opportunity to establish interest in what seems like a credible concept, except that fans of organized racing with proper depth into racecraft/settings/etc are currently left wanting more. Daily race shuffle is fine at the moment for some, as the lack of a traditional career mode means that chasing the DR/SR gets prioritized (hint - this is your new career mode).

But what happens after majority of people have run 100+ daily races and their DR/SR has leveled? By then, if the depth and richness of this concept is not realized and most importantly, being embraced by the fans, then this title will suffer...Hope PD is thinking 3 turns ahead.

Above all the known issues about the game, the one that strikes me as the most in need of change is how PD is operating and connecting with it's fans. A word of advise. If you are transforming your fans to a new experience, an experience with merit and promise of enjoyment, then your role as a developer is to show up, face your fans and engage them in a cohesive manner to usher confidence.

PD perhaps has a blind spot in their business model. They seem to be more focused on grinding out the remaining features/items on a excel sheet than observing and comprehending how the content that is already there is being enjoyed.

PD needs to focus on building a community and this means they have to restructure how they organize and operate. Perhaps they did not think through on how to operationalize a global community, what that really takes from a guidance/leadership perspective. After all, if a quality community is not seeded, established and thriving then this experiment could end very quickly.

 

[Foxis]

Today was the day when I gave up.
And rather than starting a new whine-thread about it, I thought I would use my own thread and follow-up on my original post.

This is not really about me either. It's a look at how PD has and will continue to alienate a part of their fanbase due to sheer lack of communication and / or incompetence.

In my OP I accused PD of lacking focus. Of wanting to have the cake and eating it. I complained that the stated vision for GTS is very far beyond what they had delivered.

One common reply was "give it time" or "it is too early to draw conclusions". It has now been two months. Nothing has happened that offers any sign of hope for the future of GTS as a serious racing sport platform. Rather to the contrary, with their announcement of GT League to pander to the offline-crowd.

I have to say "I told you so".

But what they are doing is fine. They are certainly free to take whatever decisions make sense to them. But it will have an effect.

The effect is that people like me will probably simply stop playing. Sure, it turns out I am probably not the target demographic. But I am quite sure there are quite a few like me, possibly more hardcore, that had high hopes for GTS and are now jumping ship as well, or will do so. That is a problem for PD as the more passionate crowd tends to be the most vocal. So this becomes a lost opportunity for PD, that may be hard to fix later on.

So, as saddened as I am by all of this, I will not spend more time on it. I might return to GTS in a few months and see if it has improved dramatically. But I seriously doubt it.

(And in case someone wants to know what finally did it in for me: The lack of a fix for the BoP problems, and the constant switching of gr3/gr4 race lengths where I can seldom get a nice, competitive race of any decent length.)

 

[Huzar]

lack of communication and / or incompetence.

Yes lack of communication is an issue, but nothing stops them from scouring forums posts blogs youtube videos for them to get a sense of the fanbase wishes and wants. They don't need to directly communicate.

The issue how i see it is rather cut and dry.
3 major problems.

- Mis-management
- Incompetence
- Kaz

 

[ShiftingGears]

The biggest issue for me is that the PS4 has been on the market for four years and this is the first game PD have put out on the console. People would give them a lot more leeway for any shortcomings had this game been released in 2014, because the final product does not reflect four years worth of development with the resources PD has available to them.

If you take away the flashy FIA affiliation and the Vision GT cars, you have their centrepiece sport mode comprising of only two categories of vehicles, and only a handful of tracks on which to use them, and no offline mode.

 

[Antfit15]

Yes, another negative thread. You have been warned.

I will start with something positive though: I am still enjoying the game, and the racing.

But...
...it is becoming increasingly clear that the team at Polyphony Digital is either incompetent or out of touch with what is happening in the game.

My basis for this claim is the fact that there is no rhyme or reason to the changes they are implementing. They seem very reactive and seem to be changing things on a whim. My (albeit limited) data:

- Weekly, then biweekly, then daily races. Tuning, then no tuning, then fixed, then garage.
- Daily laps: few, then longer, then fewer again.
- Championships, nations cup: First garage cars, then..one make? First quite a few laps (10+) then what...5?
- Excellent qualifying system for the championships....but SEVEN minutes for the quali session...?

I could go on with such things like the focus on eSports but blatant ignorant sportmanship videos and starting everyone off in SR B, and...and... But I won't.

The thing is that most people observing this will rightly conclude that PD is experimenting right now, which people may think is fine. But I actually do not think it is fine. It is a symptom of PD having a goal (eSport) but lacking any plan regarding how to get there. Or if they had one, they have concluded it was broken and are desperately trying to fix it.

Which is a shame, since I thought GTS could bring what I missed in iRacing: a more forgiving experience with a little bit more focus on car p*rn (photos, nice models, etc.) and perhaps more main stream appeal / attention. I would have loved to see GTS becoming a legitimate route to the start of a racing career for youngsters.

But given how the first couple of weeks have played out I - sadly - predict this will fail. They are quickly alienating the more competent players, and the casual players will skip to another game soon enough. Which might just kill the ambition PD has since the player numbers will go down.

If PD wants to avoid GTS merely ending as a gateway drug to iRacing they need to clamp down on the SR debacle and they need to show that they understand motorsports.
While that may alienate some players (the casuals) those are players they cannot really count on in the long run anyway. They will not mean lost sales either as a tighter experience will yield a better reputation and more sales rather than the other way around.

Not that PD will listen to me. But I needed to get this off my chest. Thanks for reading!

I agree completely with everything you said. I believed this game would cover for the fact that i bought a ps4 just to play gt6 and then they decided to release it on the dang ps3 like the dolts they are so now not only did i not ever get to play gt6 now i have a game that caters to the type of player that doesnt care about there sr rating as long as they get in front of you. I played a event and had pole possition it was a 3 lap race and by the end i was in 8th because of players that torpedo and side but people off the road. The sr rating is a joke. Also make it imposible to even a little of an edge by use that dang bop is ridiculous. I spend all my mile on upgrading car for what? I never get to see the prduct of that upgrade unless i race simeone in my home. All the races dumb the cars down. This is a far cry from gt past great job pd NOOOOTTTTT!

The game's been out, what, not yet 3 weeks?

Have they got it 100% right at launch? Probably not. Could they be expected to get it right 100% 1st time? Unlikely. Will they need to adjust some things to account for this? Of course.

Play it for what it is, enjoy the good parts, let it develop.

There are very few good points to enjoy

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

Well as you’ve deleted the game @Foxis id like to say thank you for your time here posting, and I hope you find another racing game you can enjoy and post on a forum for that.

Cheers and good luck in your journey.

 

[ScottPuss20]

These types of threads are really getting annoying now. Go the the Whining and Crying Thread to vent your frustrations...