Porsche 991 Information Released

[Stotty]

Balls, @Beeblebrox237 beat me to it! Oak Green with the natural espresso/cognac leather interior would probably be my ideal GTS. I prefer how an Alcantara rim feels, but the brown interior just looks too nice, so I'd make that sacrifice.

I really, really liked the GTS when I drove it. But in Canada, if I were in the market, I'd have a hard time justifying the purchase when the GT3 Touring now exists, and there's only 30 grand between them. A quick go of the configurator cut that difference to only four figures, although admittedly the GT3 would gain a few thousand in options too.

That actually raised a strange issue for (hypothetically well-off) me: I'd much prefer the GT3 Touring, but I want more Alcantara for the interior. That's not an option currently.

I'm also wondering how a Touring would look in Ultraviolet — or indeed a Cayman.

Not really an option in the UK (and probably most of Europe) as GT3's are massively over subscribed... you just can't get hold of them unless you have a very long buying history with your dealer, and have bought multiple 911's/Macans/Cayennes/Panameras.

Given the choice, I'd have a Touring in Oak with Espresso natural leather folding buckets (a 'replica' 911R)... this would be extremely expensive though, as the interior would need to be done through the exclusive program (Touring only available with black leather stock).

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Touring in Oak with Espresso natural leather folding buckets

You have excellent taste, sir.

 

[Stotty]

You have excellent taste, sir.

Herr Rohrl has an R in the same combination. Stunning thing.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Herr Rohrl has an R in the same combination. Stunning thing.

He has good taste, too:

 

[SlipZtrEm]

If if helps, Alcantara wears terribly. I've heard exotic car rental fleet managers say they've gone through 5 or more steering wheels in less than 50,000 miles because the Alcantara wears down really quickly.

Strangely, I've heard the opposite. Good Alcantara seems to last quite a while, and it avoids the more obvious signs of wear that leather typically has.

To be honest, I just really like how it feels. I also appreciate it has better heat dispersion qualities; it won't be as hot in the summer, nor as frigid in the winter. Even a combo with leather wouldn't be all bad — the Fanatec CSL E PS4 rim does that, and I find it helps give a better sense of the amount of angle I've poured on. Though admittedly that's less of an issue when driving a real-world Porsche...

Not really an option in the UK (and probably most of Europe) as GT3's are massively over subscribed... you just can't get hold of them unless you have a very long buying history with your dealer, and have bought multiple 911's/Macans/Cayennes/Panameras.

Given the choice, I'd have a Touring in Oak with Espresso natural leather folding buckets (a 'replica' 911R)... this would be extremely expensive though, as the interior would need to be done through the exclusive program (Touring only available with black leather stock).

Admittedly, I have no idea how accessible GT3s are in Canada. The local dealer tends to have a steady stream, but I'd assume they're already spoken for by the time they arrive.

Excellent taste 👍. That sounds like the ideal spec to me. Really don't understand why the Touring is limited to such dour interiors though!

 

[TheCracker]

Strangely, I've heard the opposite. Good Alcantara seems to last quite a while, and it avoids the more obvious signs of wear that leather typically has.

Alcantara wears really well, it's just that the fibres get flattened and the dirt/oils from your skin form a sheen over it. A gentle cleaner with a soft bristled brush then a light vacuum is all it needs to revive it.

 

[Stotty]

Admittedly, I have no idea how accessible GT3s are in Canada. The local dealer tends to have a steady stream, but I'd assume they're already spoken for by the time they arrive.

Excellent taste 👍. That sounds like the ideal spec to me. Really don't understand why the Touring is limited to such dour interiors though!

Limited production capacity and limited time - the factory shuts down shortly, and Porsche are trying to churn out the maximum number of cars prior to this. It's why UK dealers allowed no PTS options on GT cars - allowed them to get more cars as this simplified production options.

Having said that, some of the standard/option choices are just odd - like not being able to spec the GT3 interior on the Touring (no alcantara, for example), or not being able to get folding buckets with the alcantara interior on the GTS (but you could with the fixed back 918 buckets)... strange combinations.

Of course you can have whatever you want if you have a very good relationship with your OPC and you have a big pile of cash to spend on the exclusive program!

 

[TenEightyOne]

Of course you can have whatever you want if you have a very good relationship with your OPC and you have a big pile of cash to spend on the exclusive program!

Quite, the delivery options might be limited but the dealership aftermarkets options are as wide open as your wallet can stretch to.

 

[McLaren]

Strangely, I've heard the opposite. Good Alcantara seems to last quite a while, and it avoids the more obvious signs of wear that leather typically has.

To be honest, I just really like how it feels. I also appreciate it has better heat dispersion qualities; it won't be as hot in the summer, nor as frigid in the winter. Even a combo with leather wouldn't be all bad — the Fanatec CSL E PS4 rim does that, and I find it helps give a better sense of the amount of angle I've poured on. Though admittedly that's less of an issue when driving a real-world Porsche...

In addition to what TheCracker said, alcantara's other weakness is temp. Apparently, long exposure to the sun can destroy it easily. But, most of these guys likely keep the cars in garages/covered areas at their work.

Admittedly, I have no idea how accessible GT3s are in Canada. The local dealer tends to have a steady stream, but I'd assume they're already spoken for by the time they arrive.

Excellent taste 👍. That sounds like the ideal spec to me. Really don't understand why the Touring is limited to such dour interiors though!

Small allocations with pre-selected lists. Best bet is to buy leftover Panameras & Cayennes to get in good graces. Canada does not allow ADM, so that option (though grossly expensive and discouraged) is off the table. The other option is to see if someone will sell you their allocation, but you'll be spending well over sticker to get their spot. Buying pre-owned 4-6 months after they release will be the same; high markups.

The brand is basically taking notes right out of Ferrari's playbook these days.

 

[Stotty]

Small allocations with pre-selected lists. Best bet is to buy leftover Panameras & Cayennes to get in good graces. Canada does not allow ADM, so that option (though grossly expensive and discouraged) is off the table. The other option is to see if someone will sell you their allocation, but you'll be spending well over sticker to get their spot. Buying pre-owned 4-6 months after they release will be the same; high markups.

The brand is basically taking notes right out of Ferrari's playbook these days.

ADM? Additional dealer margin? Are US dealers allowed to sell over list price?

That doesn't happen in Europe, and OPC's are not even allowed to retail 2nd hand cars above list until production has completely finished on a particular model.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

ADM? Additional dealer margin? Are US dealers allowed to sell over list price?

Yep, it happens very often with highly sought after cars. I recall that when the Challenger SRT8 first came out they were selling for $70,000+ (in 2008 money), and more recently the Civic Type Rs were going for $5-10k over sticker.

 

[Stotty]

Yep, it happens very often with highly sought after cars. I recall that when the Challenger SRT8 first came out they were selling for $70,000+ (in 2008 money), and more recently the Civic Type Rs were going for $5-10k over sticker.

Ouch!

European dealers might pick and choose who they sell to, and also agree buy backs and favorable trade ins, but they don't sell new cars above list.

In effect, that's turning the buying process in to an auction - if a dealership gets an allocation of 3 or 4 cars, they can just phone 10 potential buyers and ask them how much they are prepared to pay over list to secure a car.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Ouch!

European dealers might pick and choose who they sell to, and also agree buy backs and favorable trade ins, but they don't sell new cars above list.

In effect, that's turning the buying process in to an auction - if a dealership gets an allocation of 3 or 4 cars, they can just phone 10 potential buyers and ask them how much they are prepared to pay over list to secure a car.

Yep, pretty much. It's created a few interesting situations as well for manufacturers like Porsche, who allocate cars to dealers in a way that's not based on actual demand, so people can buy those allocations and sell them to other dealers who will then resell them for a larger markup:

​

"I had secured over a dozen allocations for the GT3 RS at sticker"

 

[kikie]

Have you ever heard of a 991.2 Alex Edition? I have.

 

[McLaren]

ADM? Additional dealer margin? Are US dealers allowed to sell over list price?

That doesn't happen in Europe, and OPC's are not even allowed to retail 2nd hand cars above list until production has completely finished on a particular model.

Yes. Porsche dealers here can have a nasty habit though, of charging ADM on top of a car they don't even have an allocation for yet.

There's been a small handful of posts on Rennlist of dealers asking an extra $20-$50,000 on top of sticker if you want to secure an allocation. And some of these guys agree and put down a large deposit which has resulted in a dealership essentially being given $50,000 for nothing for months until they come back and say, "Sorry, we couldn't secure an allocation". It's been notorious with the RS cars, mainly b/c no one has definite production numbers beforehand.

 

[Stotty]

Yes. Porsche dealers here can have a nasty habit though, of charging ADM on top of a car they don't even have an allocation for yet.

There's been a small handful of posts on Rennlist of dealers asking an extra $20-$50,000 on top of sticker if you want to secure an allocation. And some of these guys agree and put down a large deposit which has resulted in a dealership essentially being given $50,000 for nothing for months until they come back and say, "Sorry, we couldn't secure an allocation". It's been notorious with the RS cars, mainly b/c no one has definite production numbers beforehand.

Christ! And we think it’s bad over here

 

[McLaren]

Christ! And we think it’s bad over here

Your 2RS market is what scares me. I optioned one out on the UK website to around 240,000GBP. All the ones on Pistonheads though, are asking 500,000-540,000GBP. German market seems similar; 285,000 Euros, used market asking around 500,000 euros.

These things are gonna be $600,000 when the states finally get them. 997 2RS are up to $550,000.

 

[RCKakashi14]

New 911 GT3 R



I am surprised that an NA flat six can be stretched further to 550 HP. The previous ones are barely over 500.

 

[kikie]

The 991.2 Alex Edition:

The police Porsches of the past are brutal. But no one will spend more than two and a half tons on a white car with pale orange surfaces. That is why Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur comes with the Porsche 911 Alex Edition; a nod to the old police Porsches (who were called Alex, to the Alexander Barracks in The Hague), but in a brutal color.

Source.

 

[Stotty]

Your 2RS market is what scares me. I optioned one out on the UK website to around 240,000GBP. All the ones on Pistonheads though, are asking 500,000-540,000GBP. German market seems similar; 285,000 Euros, used market asking around 500,000 euros.

These things are gonna be $600,000 when the states finally get them. 997 2RS are up to $550,000.

European 2RS market is a bit silly at the moment... but 3RS's were £250+ early in their life, and they have settled to under £200 now (vs list of c.£140).

I expect 2RS prices to settle down a little as more get delivered, and more owners realise they are completely unsuited to road driving, and decide to cash in!

Just saw a German road test of 2RS vs 720... 720 is quicker everywhere (including lap time at Hockenhiem GP)... but I'm at the point with these sorts of cars now where I'm just not interested beyond giggling at the numbers. They are all far to quick and competent to make enjoyable road cars.

Give me enough money to buy a 2RS and I'll 1) go find myself a nice longnose ST rep, 2) spend £50k on a 3.7l engine/full suspension rebuild/re-paint/interior re-trim for my 996, and 3) buy something specific for track days.

 

[homeforsummer]

Just saw a German road test of 2RS vs 720... 720 is quicker everywhere (including lap time at Hockenhiem GP)... but I'm at the point with these sorts of cars now where I'm just not interested beyond giggling at the numbers. They are all far to quick and competent to make enjoyable road cars.

In most cases I'd agree with that take, and I'm not enough of a Porschephile that I really desire a 2RS (I'd be happy with a basic Carrera really, and if the Cayman still had a flat-six I'd opt for that instead) but I've driven both those cars and actually they're rare exceptions to the rule. Both at least in part because they feel incredibly special simply as objects, so it's a joy just to be in and around them.

But also because both are tactile enough in the ways that matter (steering feedback, throttle response, brake feedback etc) that although you could never drive them to their limits on a road (or enjoy all of their performance), you could at least enjoy a flavour of what they offer in a way that some other ultra-high performance cars might not.

All that said... gimme an Elise or the new Alpine any day...

 

[Stotty]

New 911 GT3 R



I am surprised that an NA flat six can be stretched further to 550 HP. The previous ones are barely over 500.

A slightly sexier picture...

 

[kikie]

Do you think (everyone) that a manual Carrera T is going to hold its value better than a standard C2 (S), C4(S)?

A slightly sexier picture...

Looks like an Assetto Corsa Competizione screenshot.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Do you think (everyone) that a manual Carrera T is going to hold its value better than a standard C2 (S), C4(S)?

Probably. Personally, I'm not sure I see the appeal. It's a bit lighter a a bit sharper but you lose some features and pay more, and for the money if you want a more focused 911 my view is that you may as well buy a used GT3.

 

[McLaren]

Do you think (everyone) that a manual Carrera T is going to hold its value better than a standard C2 (S), C4(S)?

I'm not sure it will because the pricing of those cars are all in the same ballpark. As Beeble said, the T is less features, more price all for the sake of being the "driver's" model, but in the end, it appears to have roughly all the options any other 911 Carrera has. I'm sure you could build a Carrera 4 & a T with similar colors, wheels, & options and come out to roughly equal MSRP. I don't think there's enough there in the 911 T to hold its value any more than a Carrera of similar build.

I think if you're after a 911 to hold value, the GTS is the lowest on the totem pole I would assume considering it starts at a significantly higher price & is the halfway point to affording a GT3.

 

[kikie]

Less featured?

The C2T has more options compared to the C2. Some of the features are options for the C2 and some of the C2T standard equipement isn't even available for the C2.

 

[McLaren]

Less featured?

The C2T has more options compared to the C2.

In what bracket?

I see more color options, more wheel options, more interior color choices, more seat choices, more performance options, etc. for the Carrera than the Carrera T by far.

Some of the features are options for the C2

Like the Sport Steering wheel? Of course, that's how it justifies it's $10,000 more price tag.

and some of the C2T standard equipement isn't even available for the C2.

Sure, because it has to some uniqueness to it.

All it is compared to the other Carreras is a sportier package with a couple bits of unique exterior & interior finishes. Other than that, there's nothing about it that will help it holds its value any better than the others. Because it also comes pre-set from the factory with those little, unique finishes, it also ends up being limited in options to retain them, such as the seats; there's only 4 color choices for that fabric to mimic the old 911T. Meanwhile, I can build a similar priced Carrera 4 with RS style wheels, higher end interior finish with the same Sport Tex-rex seats, some sportier exterior finishes such as exhaust and sport design mirrors, premium package, and wood steering wheel & I'm already at $120,000+.

I'm sure a T may hold its value better than most Carreras, but the customization Porsche gives those models is going to allow for some examples to be valued way more than the T can because Porsche wants the T built a specific way. PTS alone will put a Carrera over the price of a T, something it can't have.

 

[Stotty]

T will hold its value better as it has T on the back... no other reason.

It's a parts bin car.... but the owners are waxing lyrical about it being 'a mini GT3', 'better than a GTS', blah, blah, blah

 

[kikie]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the T is a better car.

I was only comparing the T with a standard C2. I found it strange why people say that you have less for more money. Now I get the misconception. In Belgium this is not the case. It seems that you can build a T with the same standard equipment as the C2 but with the optons only available for the T.
It also seems that we have more options to choose from than in the US (see screenshots below).

In what bracket?

I see more color options, more wheel options, more interior color choices, more seat choices, more performance options, etc. for the Carrera than the Carrera T by far.

Oops, in my initial post, I used the word features and changed it to options. Nevertheless, we can choose more options, see screenshots below.

Like the Sport Steering wheel? Of course, that's how it justifies it's $10,000 more price tag.

See screenshots below.

Sure, because it has to some uniqueness to it.

All it is compared to the other Carreras is a sportier package with a couple bits of unique exterior & interior finishes. Other than that, there's nothing about it that will help it holds its value any better than the others. Because it also comes pre-set from the factory with those little, unique finishes, it also ends up being limited in options to retain them, such as the seats; there's only 4 color choices for that fabric to mimic the old 911T. Meanwhile, I can build a similar priced Carrera 4 with RS style wheels, higher end interior finish with the same Sport Tex-rex seats, some sportier exterior finishes such as exhaust and sport design mirrors, premium package, and wood steering wheel & I'm already at $120,000+.

I'm sure a T may hold its value better than most Carreras, but the customization Porsche gives those models is going to allow for some examples to be valued way more than the T can because Porsche wants the T built a specific way. PTS alone will put a Carrera over the price of a T, something it can't have.

A similar C2 with the same options - apparently available in Belgium - is more expensive than a T. Execpt for the PVT, which is only available (standard) for the T.


It seems that I have to redo the screenshots.

Screenshots on the following page in a new post.

 

[McLaren]

T will hold its value better as it has T on the back... no other reason.

It's a parts bin car.... but the owners are waxing lyrical about it being 'a mini GT3', 'better than a GTS', blah, blah, blah

Waaaaat? Sounds like some blokes who couldn't shell out an extra $10-15,000 for a GTS, then. But hey, it's got throwback interior and less noise reduction, so it's louder!