Porsche is Giving the 919 a Victory Tour (And Looking to Shatter Lap Records)
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Pete05
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- 7,080
- Melbourne, Australia
The only thing I'm favour of Bellof's 956 is that it was a Ground Effect chassis.
Even though his car was on qualifying boost, that car with the best of the modern tyres, wouldn't see which way this 919 went.
The 956/962 Porsche was a spent force in competitive terms by 1988/1989.
Even the later era Group C sports cars - Jaguar, Sauber-Merc, Toyota & Nissan, would embarrass a mid 80's Porsche.
Credit where it's due?
The 956 was released in 1982 & together with its 962 evolution, was the car to have for a full 5 seasons.
Even though his car was on qualifying boost, that car with the best of the modern tyres, wouldn't see which way this 919 went.
The 956/962 Porsche was a spent force in competitive terms by 1988/1989.
Even the later era Group C sports cars - Jaguar, Sauber-Merc, Toyota & Nissan, would embarrass a mid 80's Porsche.
Credit where it's due?
The 956 was released in 1982 & together with its 962 evolution, was the car to have for a full 5 seasons.
- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
I like the fact that it's besting f1 times with such a 'small' effort. It's not like there's hundreds of millions of dollars and a 1000 person team behind it (looking at you Mercedes f1). They took last year's car, put bigger wings and splitters and diffusers on it, threw on some side skirts, strengthened the suspension up for the increased loads and uncorked the fuel flow restrictions. It's still the same chassis. The same engine and hybrid system, made from a little bit of leftovers designated for the 2018 wec season. If they were to go deeper (which Porsche admit they definitely could) they'd demolish the record.
The car makes a combined 1140+hp based on the press release. The engine itself is much less powerful than an f1 engine at 720ps. The hybrid is only 40ps higher than the regular wec spec, 400 to 440ps. This gives you an idea of how much more lmp1 is held back. Sure, f1 is too, but to think that an lmp1 with things like drs that feature on f1 and some bigger wings and 2015 levels of power could be so fast is crazy. The biggest thing slowing them is that lifting and coasting to meet the fuel demands the wec places on them. Without that these cars would be a few seconds from f1 without the upgrades.
The car makes a combined 1140+hp based on the press release. The engine itself is much less powerful than an f1 engine at 720ps. The hybrid is only 40ps higher than the regular wec spec, 400 to 440ps. This gives you an idea of how much more lmp1 is held back. Sure, f1 is too, but to think that an lmp1 with things like drs that feature on f1 and some bigger wings and 2015 levels of power could be so fast is crazy. The biggest thing slowing them is that lifting and coasting to meet the fuel demands the wec places on them. Without that these cars would be a few seconds from f1 without the upgrades.
- 239
- Switzerland
This show us how bizarre F1 regulations have been in the last 10 years, Mercedes Gp became bureaucratic world champions with other teams like Ferrari, RedBull trying so hard to take their place... then sudenly a tuned prototype came out from WEC and all these rules, all this huge waste of money, basically all they made in the last 10 years.. seems even more.. pointless.
Yeah, this is life!
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
LeGeNd-1
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- 7,264
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
Insane. This is basically what Group C would be like without restrictions. I love it. Not everyday you would see a manufacturer build something like this. Unnecessary, but this is what inspires young kids to dream big and create something amazing in the future 👍
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/motorsport/porsche-919-evo-
The stats from TG website suggests 1160 hp, 849 kg and 53% more downforce than the stock LMP1. I don't know what that downforce figure is in absolute terms compared to F1, but shaving off 12 seconds off its own time is absolutely mind boggling. A difference of 0.7 seconds might not seem much, but F1 is basically a seat connected to 4 wheels and some carbon fiber contraption on top. No excess fat, nothing on it that doesn't make it go faster. For a tin top to beat it is just insane. Just think how much faster this thing could be if baseline LMP1 regs are less restrictive? Of course, the same can be said about F1, but then we'll probably get a mashup of LMPxF1 and end up with Red Bull X1s...
I can't wait to see what kind of times this thing will produce around Le Mans, Nurburgring, Goodwood, Pikes Peak or even IOM TT? Sounds crazy, but might as well do it before the motoring industry becomes all electric and autonomous forever.
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/motorsport/porsche-919-evo-
The stats from TG website suggests 1160 hp, 849 kg and 53% more downforce than the stock LMP1. I don't know what that downforce figure is in absolute terms compared to F1, but shaving off 12 seconds off its own time is absolutely mind boggling. A difference of 0.7 seconds might not seem much, but F1 is basically a seat connected to 4 wheels and some carbon fiber contraption on top. No excess fat, nothing on it that doesn't make it go faster. For a tin top to beat it is just insane. Just think how much faster this thing could be if baseline LMP1 regs are less restrictive? Of course, the same can be said about F1, but then we'll probably get a mashup of LMPxF1 and end up with Red Bull X1s...
I can't wait to see what kind of times this thing will produce around Le Mans, Nurburgring, Goodwood, Pikes Peak or even IOM TT? Sounds crazy, but might as well do it before the motoring industry becomes all electric and autonomous forever.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Delicate?
Billions? That's an interesting number, hell most of what some of the users here are saying is interesting. A lot of conjecture and what not around a great event that happened for Sports car racing, to piss on another sport. Where the two aren't even equivalent really.
This show us how bizarre F1 regulations have been in the last 10 years, Mercedes Gp became bureaucratic world champions with other teams like Ferrari, RedBull trying so hard to take their place... then sudenly a tuned prototype came out from WEC and all these rules, all this huge waste of money, basically all they made in the last 10 years.. seems even more.. pointless.
Yeah, this is life!
What? First off even @trustjab is playing up to the bias of sports cars at the expense of conflating F1. You extend that here in this response.
The car Porsche made and dominated the sports car world with for the past 3 years played in a ball park that even some mid field F1 teams can't reach same with Audi which had been doing it longer, around $200K +. This number is what put Peugeot off from joining the series again back in 2016, so what's pointless again? When WEC's top class flipped upside down due to costs, and all it took was a financial strain unfolding (diesel gate) to kill programs, plenty of faces here seemed to balk at the groups like the one behind this car. Now that seems all forgotten because of a timed lap beaten, that hundreds of people contributed to in WEC guise, and now a handful of them further helped to create with this Evo version. It's quite confusing, as WEC struggles and has to fall back on opening the P1 field to make numbers, yet F1 is the waste.
So yes, Trustjab there is hundreds of millions of dollars behind it and probably close to a 1000 man personnel group, maybe half that since WEC doesn't run nearly the same length of season and around the clock as F1.
Yet many ignore how F1 is just as restrictive and WEC mirrors F1 in so many ways, but we'll pretend it doesn't for this moment in time because people want to read more into a story. Rather than enjoy the engineering feat here, and a service to the fans Porsche didn't have to do, we make a pissing contest out of it. Bravo.
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- 3,694
- South Australia
I’m well aware of that.
I wasn’t talking a direct speed comparison here. Nowhere did I imply that a deristricted open wheeler wouldn’t be able to lap faster than an equally unleashed tin top. The two sports and cars are not the same and they aren’t in competition with each other.
I was talking about the idea that if LMPs got to run unrestricted, in the endurance format they currently run, would the increased speed, combined with what already makes the WEC interesting, bring the sport’s popularity to a level that would rival F1. It’s no secret that P1 is all but extinct at this point and as a fan, I’d love to see the cars pushed to their fire spitting, tyre punishing and engine destroying limit. I think many Motorsport fans would feel the same.
I love what Porsche are doing here and can’t wait to see where they take it. A real eye opener to the potential of modern race car engineering.
- 2,371
The current F1 cars and engines have been under constant development since before 2014, i think it is a safe bet to say that billions have been spend on the development?
- 11,802
- Marin County
F1 cars are more delicate than most other racing series, definitely more delicate than WEC. Do you disagree?
- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
Probably. But now you have engine and hybrid components that have to do 6 or 7 races each unless you take grid penalties. This Porsche is still heavier than the private lmp1's of this season. Those are 833kg plus driver(s). So there's still scope for improvement even though it's still one of the fastest race cars in the world. That's what I was saying in my last post. There's things done to the car but most is superficial as in skin deep. Only a few electrical components and such are taken out.
- 1,448
It would be funny if they continued developing this insane car and then, come August, they would be present again at the F1 GP. If their record fell during F1 qualifying, they would go out at the end to try and take it back. Would love to see them do that!
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I'm asking you based on what? Considering they have been running in tightly growing engine regs to restrict usage...
80s and 90s I'd agree with you absolutely.
Oh so we're arguing engines. Rather than running cost of the team, because those are two different manufacturing efforts that you're interchanging. The 919 and current Toyota are no different, the system and development is probably close to equal. You make it seem as though WEC runs vastly cheaper technology it's not at all.
Perhaps and I'd like to see that myself too. I'm as much a fan of P1 as F1 but I realize there is a massive difference between what each is trying to accomplish despite the FIAs efforts to intermingle them at times. However if it did happen it wouldn't be too longer after that fans would increasingly ask to see F1 just as restricted and then we're back to square one.
- 25,066
- Somewhere.
They're definitely sturdier than the DTM cars.
- 23,917
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
F1's are designed to race flat out for no more than 2 hours (plus a handful of qualifying laps) LMP1's are designed to race for upto 24hrs. They are, by design, built to last 12x longer. If you designed an F1 to last for 24hrs you'd probably compromise aerodynamics and definitely add weight.
I think that time would be yeah, but I mean, a 2018 F1 car without the massive weight of the Halo and the general extra weight of the cars. Current F1 cars are crazy heavy compared to how they used to be. Strip one down, allow them do make what ever insane wings they want without limits, no need to worry about making the engine last
Roo
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- Hampshire, UK
- GTP_Roo
Don't get too excited about the 919 Tribute being the fastest car ever up the Goodwood hill, because for all the talk each year of cars beating Nick Heidfeld's 1999 time of 41.6 seconds, they aren't actually allowed to. My understanding is that if anyone was to beat the record, they would have to be travelling at such a speed that the course would need to be lined by catch fencing, and that would hugely damage the event. When Allan McNish drove the Toyota F1 car in 2002, on the last run of the weekend he went flat out, which ment he a) unofficially broke the record - he wasn't timed but running a stopwatch against the TV footage suggested he had - and b) got a massive telling off from the organisers. Cars that by the split times look like they might beat the record always lift off enough by the finish for the good of the event; I seem to recall whoever was driving the Peugeot 208 T16 that Loeb took the Pikes Peak record with did so a few years ago.
- 2,371
I am actually not arguing anything. I am stating facts. F1 development cost billions. Hundreds of people working for years on the cars, every last bit from cables to paint weight and expensive aero tunnels. WEC is cheap to run compared to F1.
- 11,802
- Marin County
I'm more speaking about how they cannot tolerate contact basically at all. I'm not saying every motorsport should have NASCAR style "rubbing" but I dislike how often F1 cars are forced to retire due comparatively light incidents. Endurance racing is just more my jam, and its awesome to see an endurance racer running at the pace of an F1 car. My OP was a jest aimed at F1 because I often feel the whole sport is a little self-aggrandising...though it's definitely improved with new ownership.
I'm not disputing they are built for difference purposes. It doesn't change the fact that they are not as robust as an LMP1. That an LMP1 is running on pace with F1 is the whole point of my original post, as it conceivably could do it for 24 hours (depending on how much additional stress the modifications have made).
Edit: This whole thread has become a pretty nasty F1 vs WEC. Maybe people should relax a little?
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
You're not stating facts, the people who build and design the F1 engine back at AMG performance aren't the same as the F1 team. So what you're essentially saying that on top of running a team in F1 and the development of an engine/powertrain, this comes out to supposed billions. Yet you have no solid numbers on that.
WEC isn't cheap to run at the top class compared to F1, which is why Peugeot hasn't come back. I gave you the numbers and can link you to the article where these claims are made. There is a break down i can also provide that shows what the various teams in F1 spend. I will tell you right now teams like Audi and Porsche were running similar team operating expenses to that of top teams in F1. So if Porsche runs 200+ million and Williams runs 150 million how is that cheaper than F1?
How so, should I post up several videos of wheel to wheel contact and them still going on? P1 cars use the same suspension technology as F1. I'm confused where you're getting your info from. If Endurance is your thing that's fine. I enjoy both equally, but just because you enjoy one more than another doesn't mean you shouldn't be nearly as equal in knowledge when you decide to discuss the lesser liked.
I haven’t heard of that before. The only thing I’ve heard is that modern F1 cars and modern hill climb open cockpit cars aren’t allowed to set times. After seeing how fast this 919 Evo is the Goodwood organisers might have a quiet word and it may unfortunately get put into the “too fast to time” category.
If not it should take the record, the immense traction and acceleration of the Evo are just perfect for a fast run up the hill. I do hope it can set a time though as it’s the only event where the Evo will actually compete against other cars.
- 11,802
- Marin County
deleted. I'm not gonna continue this.
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- 6,515
- Southampton
- RacingAtHome
- 2,371
The reason why Porsche and others are leaving WEC or Lemans 24h as I would call it is simple. Not worth the money. And considering how cheap it is to run in WEC compared to F1 it says something about the commercial value of F1 and explains why the top teams are willing to invest these insane number of moneys.
But hey, you think F1 cars with exposed wheels and suspension is just as robust as a WEC car with a chassis covering the most fragile parts so I give up,
Have a nice day.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
So I ask you for numbers to verify how WEC is so cheap and you back peddle otherwise...okay. F1 cars and P1 cars are the same design principal, as I explained to another user in private the only difference is there is more carbon covering the body. The same brittle and easy to break carbon that is often switched in Endurance races because of accidents. Endurance P1 and P2 cars tangle with GT cars and the results are usually bad so for something that is so strong, they are just as prone to damage.
From an engineering aspect the same design principles in the suspension construction between the two cars are the same and use the same materials. So I'm confused why you think my comments are so incorrect just because an open wheel car has exposure, it still has to endure the same loads and in some cases even more due to the higher aerodynamic forces.
LeGeNd-1
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- 7,264
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
Yeah I know safety issues are gonna be the main barrier. Still fun to think about though. Maybe they could just ask the spectators to stand a tad further back just for this car. I don't know, as a last blast tribute before all of motorsport turn green/electrified/autonomous I just want to see what it can do.
This looks pretty flat out to me, and while the 919 is faster, due to the nature of the course (not any real straight), I doubt peak speed before Malcomb is going to be significantly higher. Formula cars are always going to be more dangerous as its open wheel and open top, but the 919 is a tin top so safety margins are a lot better.
- 2,371
I visited Le Mans twice and Formula One Twice. Le Mans is a must just as much as F1.
You get a great racing experience, it was amazing to see those cars through the Porsche Curves. That being said, the sound from the old V10s F1 engines was almost physical scary, holy crap
But the race is short, so few cars and no enough time to really enjoy the race. Le Mans on the other hand, pit walk, drivers parade, and 24 hours of pure hard racing...Similar threads
