Porsche Not in FM4 Confirmed (Originally Porsche may be in Forza 4. Check this out).

[amar212]

Copy/paste of my post on this subject from Shift2 thread:

Here is my personal recap on 3 selected manufactorers, I find it the most plausible when you analyze the past praxis in last 3 years:

Ferrari:
- full multiplatform rights were used only in Outrun games (Sega, under Ferrari Licensed Product brand) and were partially seen in 2008 GRID
- PS3 license users are Polyphony Digital (Gran Turismo series under Ferrari Licensed Product brand) and System 3 (Ferrari Challenge/Supercar Challenge games and Ferrari: The Race Experience (PSN game))
- System 3 also used their license for Wii version of Ferrari Chellenge game in 2008.
- Codemasters were granted rights to use F1'10 as included in FOM license for F12010 game
- Codemasters also had rights to release Ferrari F430 GTC and Ferrari F575 GTC on PS3 add-on for GRID
- Polyphony get special rights to use both F12007 and F1'10 cars in GT5 due to some special license from Ferrari (Ferrari being only F1 team that have lease to use their license rghts outside of FOM/Concorde boundaries of FOM-approval licensing)
- Microsoft have some kind of "master license" for Ferrari on X360 and grants it to their developers based on title (Project Gotham Racing, Forza Motorsport, both under Ferrari Licensed Product brand)
- on PC almost noone OFFICIALY uses Ferrari since 2007 and GTR2 game which used only racing models, probably inside general FIA-license. Ferraris were excluded from 2008 GTR Evolution game (made available only as "mod skins" later.
- have no damn idea under which and what license Eden Games got their usage for the TDU2 as multiplatform game in 2011

Regarding Shift 2 - Shift series is somewhat the legacy of Slightly Mad Studious engine called "Ferrari Project".

That "game" - "Ferrari Project" - was not really a finished game, it was really a placeholder development-software made in order to obtain financing and attract Ferrari. But at the time there was no interest, and when mock-ups started to flood the internet, SM was gently asked to remove the Ferrari imagery because they didn't have the license to use it.

Initial license was probably granted to 10tackle Studios (as publisher) in early 2000's and then internally transfered to Blimey! when 10tackle disputed with Simbin (probable reason why Ferrari is absent from GTR series since 2007). Since Ian Bell left Simbin and established Blimey - and then used insolvency of 10tackle and administration of Blimey! to sell both companies to himself - to new company Slightly Mad Studios, there was too much trembling with the license.

Notice that Ferrari Spa. licenses and copyrights EVERYTHING Ferrari-related, including actual shapes and designs of car and it's every part. And you have to negotiate every single usage of anything with their Licensing Department.

Also Notice that Sega had to remove Outrun Online Arcade from PSN in October 2010 due to expiration of license with Ferrari for PS3 usage (and somewhat-surprisingly only few days before System 3 re-released their PSN version of Ferrari/Supercar Challenge "blender", Ferrari: The Race Experience. For that we actually have a rare valid link that pretty much proofs that licenses are probably managed both as time and platform exclusives, because Outrun OA "can" stay on XBLA until Dec 2011:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...n-off-xbla-psn

Porsche:
- console multiplatform rights are owned exclusively by Electronic Arts
- Microsoft have some kind of "master license" for Porsche on X360 and grants it to their developers based on title (Project Gotham Racing, Forza Motorsport)
- Codemasters also had rights to use few Porsche models on both PS3/X360 GRID
- at this moment only EA has rights to deploy Porsche in their games on PS3
- on PC almost noone OFFICIALY uses Porsche since 2007 and GTR2 game which used only racing models, probably inside general FIA-license. Porsches were excluded from 2008 GTR Evolution game (made available only as "mod skins" later).

Lamborghini:
- made available to all developers, license probably granted inside global Volkswagen license

My personal conclusion:

If you pay enough, you can have whatever you want.

Problem is that developers do not have money nor legal-power to pay/obtain for the licenses since platform-holders and publishers have their very expensive and obviously very exclusive contracts which have no public-trace. Thus, all issues regarding licensing can only be tracked post-catedra since there are no documents or press-releases regarding actual terms and condition for licensing agreements.

We can't find any traces about such licensing, since it is probably negotiated on individual basis and makes a top-secret asset for both sides due to other possible parties involved.

I can only presume that licensing for both Ferrari/Porsche - as 2 most "problematic" licenses - is heavily complicated due to obligations of both manufacturers to their long-term partners or holders of exclusive contracts (such as publishers/platform-holders). Also, it is probably extremely expensive and object to some hard-core mathematics regarding retail results since inclusion of every such contract must be reflected and projected inside game-sales.

Also, for years we have no real idea about the EA>Porsche deal since every year new rumor about "ending in 20xx" re-surfaces, only to be followed with new EA title that exclusively have Porsches.

***C/P ends**

 

[jabofu]

Thank you amar. Well, that doesnt clear all concerns, it definetly give a direction.

- Microsoft have some kind of "master license" for Porsche on X360 and grants it to their developers based on title (Project Gotham Racing, Forza Motorsport)

So if that is true, there is not a problem with Porsche not beeing in Forza 4. I higly doubt that EA got cocky and forbit it. EA is big, but Microsoft is another giant and very important vor EA.

On the other side i am wondering about these so called "master licenses".

If FM4 offers RUF and Porsche in the same game, it will be really an epic task.

Most of the GT players adore the RUF Yellowbird and now the FM players can enjoy it too. While its really silly that Polyphony Digital couldnt get Porsche in.

 

[Da-Bomber]

Copy/paste of my post on this subject from Shift2 thread:

Here is my personal recap on 3 selected manufactorers, I find it the most plausible when you analyze the past praxis in last 3 years:

Ferrari:
- full multiplatform rights were used only in Outrun games (Sega, under Ferrari Licensed Product brand) and were partially seen in 2008 GRID
- PS3 license users are Polyphony Digital (Gran Turismo series under Ferrari Licensed Product brand) and System 3 (Ferrari Challenge/Supercar Challenge games and Ferrari: The Race Experience (PSN game))
- System 3 also used their license for Wii version of Ferrari Chellenge game in 2008.
- Codemasters were granted rights to use F1'10 as included in FOM license for F12010 game
- Codemasters also had rights to release Ferrari F430 GTC and Ferrari F575 GTC on PS3 add-on for GRID
- Polyphony get special rights to use both F12007 and F1'10 cars in GT5 due to some special license from Ferrari (Ferrari being only F1 team that have lease to use their license rghts outside of FOM/Concorde boundaries of FOM-approval licensing)
- Microsoft have some kind of "master license" for Ferrari on X360 and grants it to their developers based on title (Project Gotham Racing, Forza Motorsport, both under Ferrari Licensed Product brand)
- on PC almost noone OFFICIALY uses Ferrari since 2007 and GTR2 game which used only racing models, probably inside general FIA-license. Ferraris were excluded from 2008 GTR Evolution game (made available only as "mod skins" later.
- have no damn idea under which and what license Eden Games got their usage for the TDU2 as multiplatform game in 2011

Regarding Shift 2 - Shift series is somewhat the legacy of Slightly Mad Studious engine called "Ferrari Project".

That "game" - "Ferrari Project" - was not really a finished game, it was really a placeholder development-software made in order to obtain financing and attract Ferrari. But at the time there was no interest, and when mock-ups started to flood the internet, SM was gently asked to remove the Ferrari imagery because they didn't have the license to use it.

Initial license was probably granted to 10tackle Studios (as publisher) in early 2000's and then internally transfered to Blimey! when 10tackle disputed with Simbin (probable reason why Ferrari is absent from GTR series since 2007). Since Ian Bell left Simbin and established Blimey - and then used insolvency of 10tackle and administration of Blimey! to sell both companies to himself - to new company Slightly Mad Studios, there was too much trembling with the license.

Notice that Ferrari Spa. licenses and copyrights EVERYTHING Ferrari-related, including actual shapes and designs of car and it's every part. And you have to negotiate every single usage of anything with their Licensing Department.

Also Notice that Sega had to remove Outrun Online Arcade from PSN in October 2010 due to expiration of license with Ferrari for PS3 usage (and somewhat-surprisingly only few days before System 3 re-released their PSN version of Ferrari/Supercar Challenge "blender", Ferrari: The Race Experience. For that we actually have a rare valid link that pretty much proofs that licenses are probably managed both as time and platform exclusives, because Outrun OA "can" stay on XBLA until Dec 2011:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...n-off-xbla-psn

Porsche:
- console multiplatform rights are owned exclusively by Electronic Arts
- Microsoft have some kind of "master license" for Porsche on X360 and grants it to their developers based on title (Project Gotham Racing, Forza Motorsport)
- Codemasters also had rights to use few Porsche models on both PS3/X360 GRID
- at this moment only EA has rights to deploy Porsche in their games on PS3
- on PC almost noone OFFICIALY uses Porsche since 2007 and GTR2 game which used only racing models, probably inside general FIA-license. Porsches were excluded from 2008 GTR Evolution game (made available only as "mod skins" later).

Lamborghini:
- made available to all developers, license probably granted inside global Volkswagen license

My personal conclusion:

If you pay enough, you can have whatever you want.

Problem is that developers do not have money nor legal-power to pay/obtain for the licenses since platform-holders and publishers have their very expensive and obviously very exclusive contracts which have no public-trace. Thus, all issues regarding licensing can only be tracked post-catedra since there are no documents or press-releases regarding actual terms and condition for licensing agreements.

We can't find any traces about such licensing, since it is probably negotiated on individual basis and makes a top-secret asset for both sides due to other possible parties involved.

I can only presume that licensing for both Ferrari/Porsche - as 2 most "problematic" licenses - is heavily complicated due to obligations of both manufacturers to their long-term partners or holders of exclusive contracts (such as publishers/platform-holders). Also, it is probably extremely expensive and object to some hard-core mathematics regarding retail results since inclusion of every such contract must be reflected and projected inside game-sales.

Also, for years we have no real idea about the EA>Porsche deal since every year new rumor about "ending in 20xx" re-surfaces, only to be followed with new EA title that exclusively have Porsches.

***C/P ends**

Wow this thread really got put on track with this.

 

[180bandit]

You guys are ridiculous. Forza series has had Porsche since day one. Just because they don't advertise it doesn't mean anything. Wait and see ladies...

 

[t.o.]

You guys are ridiculous. Forza series has had Porsche since day one. Just because they don't advertise it doesn't mean anything. Wait and see ladies...

I see this thread as the old guys in the park playing chess. It's their personal thing to do to pass time. We just walk by, look, make a comment or two and keep moving. No need to call the guys ridiculous.

 

[Chad Esposito]

You guys are ridiculous. ... Wait and see ladies...

I actually can't believe that people still use female references as "insults" or like some sort of "lack of something" remark...

Amazing, we are on the year 2011.

 

[tribolik]

I actually can't believe that people still use female references as "insults" or like some sort of "lack of something" remark...

Amazing, we are on the year 2011.

Yeah some guys are really ridiculous... but... wait maybe he is from the middle east or something were women dont have any power or say in society or maybe he is 70 years old...

Lets just hope he is right about the Porsches being in Forza... though it would be the first time ever that a game has Porsche and also Ruf in it...

 

[Chad Esposito]

Yeah, Porsche and Ruf together will be incredible. I do not know the story behind the myth of that being impossible. Can anyone share with me a link or something about those rumors and what motivated them?

 

[cuco33]

Yeah some guys are really ridiculous... but... wait maybe he is from the middle east or something were women dont have any power or say in society or maybe he is 70 years old...

Lets just hope he is right about the Porsches being in Forza... though it would be the first time ever that a game has Porsche and also Ruf in it...

It would also be the first time Porsche is NOT in the Forza series.
Works both ways. I do think Porsche will be in.

I'm greedy so the more the merrier.

 

[McLaren]

Yeah some guys are really ridiculous... but... wait maybe he is from the middle east or something were women dont have any power or say in society or maybe he is 70 years old...

Lets just hope he is right about the Porsches being in Forza... though it would be the first time ever that a game has Porsche and also Ruf in it...

How many times has this been pointed out by now? It isn't.

Classic Game Room HD reviews TEST DRIVE II THE DUEL for Sega Genesis from Acclaim. This driving game was originally released for the PC in 1989 and found its way to the Sega Genesis (Sega Megadrive) in 1992. It can also be played on Tandy! It was a remarkable game at the time and allowed players to drive a Ferrari F40 or a Porsche 959 against each other in a duel! The Sega Genesis version of the game added in a Lamborghini Diablo. This CGRHD review of Test Drive 2 The Duel has gameplay footage from Test Drive II The Duel recorded from Sega Mega Drive.

Also features the original 5 1/4" floppy discs for the PC version including the Supercars pack for Test Drive II, the Muscle Cars pack for Test Drive 2 and the California track extender! Wow! You know that's hype and you want these floppy disks but you don't got em, CGR does! The Supercar car disk extender is the best and features a Lamborghini Countach, RUF Yellow Bird, Ferrari Testarossa, Lotus Esprit and Corvette ZR1. This is an awesome driving race car video game and CGRHD loves it from back in the day… although it's a little clunky today. The series continues today with Test Drive Unlimited published by Atari. This game is also called THE DUEL: TEST DRIVE 2 and playes on IBM PC 286 and PS/2.

 

[zr1chris]

it would be the first time ever that a game has Porsche and also Ruf in it...

No it wouldnt. Test Drive "the duel"

 

[Akira AC]

I wonder why a game feature two badges of almost the same car, then I remembered that GT does this with the Infinity and Nissan.

However Ruf and Porsche doesn't seem to be together in a modern racing sim, since both loyalties have to be paid, and I remember PGR series, which introduced Ruf when they could not get licensing for Porsche, it will probably be the same with Forza.

Besides, knowing the atrocious FM DLC model, they will probably have the Carrera classic already announced as DLC to boost DLC sales.

No surprise seeing Ruf instead of Porsche in FM4, the last 10 years of gaming history has teach us that, if a game features Ruf, is because it doesn't have Porsche in it.

Original price of the game= 60$
Price for each DLC package= 10$
Number of total payable DLC's= 8
Total of the game including DLC's= $140
Realization of paying more than double of the original cost of the game= Priceless

 

[The_Paladin]

Copy/paste of my post on this subject from Shift2 thread:

Here is my personal recap on 3 selected manufactorers, I find it the most plausible when you analyze the past praxis in last 3 years:


Porsche:
- console multiplatform rights are owned exclusively by Electronic Arts
- Microsoft have some kind of "master license" for Porsche on X360 and grants it to their developers based on title (Project Gotham Racing, Forza Motorsport)
- Codemasters also had rights to use few Porsche models on both PS3/X360 GRID
- at this moment only EA has rights to deploy Porsche in their games on PS3
- on PC almost noone OFFICIALY uses Porsche since 2007 and GTR2 game which used only racing models, probably inside general FIA-license. Porsches were excluded from 2008 GTR Evolution game (made available only as "mod skins" later).

There a few pieces i cant fit in the puzzle:

-Why Project Gotham Racing 3 and 4 doesnt have Porsche (replaced by RUF) after Forza franchise was born? They had them in the first 2 games and is a Microsoft tittle (also was very important during the 360 launch).

-Why Need for Speed doesnt have Ferrari now? while Forza, GT, Ferrari Challenge, Test Drive Unlimited and other games have it? i have heard is because Ferrari doesnt like their cars chased by cops but in Test Drive Unlimited your car can be chased by the police.

-Why Ferrari Challenge is not avaible in 360? i heard it was a licensing issue, could be Microsfot blocking the Ferrari license to the games that feel as competition for Forza? that would explain Ferrari Challenge and Shift 2, but not Hot Pursuit, unless EA felt it was not worthy to get Ferrari for some games only.

Besides, knowing the atrocious FM DLC model, they will probably have the Carrera classic already announced as DLC to boost DLC sales.

LOLWUT??

Forza DLC model is amazing, they keeped Forza 3 with fresh contents for a year offering great price/value with 10 cars per only 5 bucks. Thanks to that i didnt had to wait 2 years to drive a Murcielago SV, Ferrari 458, Mclaren MP4-12c, SLS AMG and other cars that werent street ready during the Forza 3 development, that plus classics and streets cars, each pack with a gift car so everyone have the data to see the cars of the ones who paid for the whole DLC.

In the OTHER game it seems like we will have to wait for atleat a year or 2 to be able to drive some newer cars. Also in other games you have to pay even more for less cars. Shift 2 is the only have that i have seen offering an arguebly better deal.

 

[Chad Esposito]

Please: I do not know the story behind the "impossibility" of Porsche - RUF being together on modern games.

Can anyone share with me some explanation about that? Do people think that currently, both companies exclude each other as a condition to license their cars or something?

 

[cuco33]

I still think that the odds that Porsche will be in are extremely good, and it'd be a massive shame if the brand didn't make it. It's one of the most winning brands in motorsports, not having it in a top racing game just isn't right.

There isn't a set rule here about RUF and Porsche as we've seen both included in a game before.
Add to the fact that Porsche has been in every iteration of Forza to date.
Or the fact that there are well over 30 Porsches in Forza 3 (including DLC cars).
Or the fact that the series has been adding more and more Porsche cars with each iteration.
Or the fact that Porsche showed up in 4 total DLC car packs, one of these being for VIP members only, with a 5th being exclusive to the Ultimate Collector's edition; basically a re-release of the game. One of these cars in the Jalopnik pack was voted by the community and we didn't get all 15 cars for this pack that we voted on but rather 10. It still made the cut.
Or the fact that T10 gifted the 911 GT1 Strassenversion to everyone as a holiday gift.

Yep, to me it seems someone at T10/MS likes Porsche and I'd be surprised if Porsche is NOT in the game. Not the other way around with the possibility of Porsche not being in because RUF is in.

 

[t.o.]

Original price of the game= 60$
Price for each DLC package= 10$
Number of total payable DLC's= 8
Total of the game including DLC's= $140
Realization of paying more than double of the original cost of the game= Priceless

OR you can do like i did....
Original price of game=60 bucks
Number of DLC cars downloaded= none
Number of free sample cars that were included with each pack downloaded = all
Total of game including all free DLC sample cars = 60 bucks
Realization that I'm having a blast and am TOO getting fresh content but getting it free = Priceless


For sake of all transparency I DID purchase the Nurn GP track. Best few bucks ever spent on DLC (well pretty much the ONLY few bucks spent on DLC). I have a blast on that track.

 

[The_Paladin]

OR you can do like i did....
Original price of game=60 bucks
Number of DLC cars downloaded= none
Number of free sample cars that were included with each pack downloaded = all
Total of game including all free DLC sample cars = 60 bucks
Realization that I'm having a blast and am TOO getting fresh content but getting it free = Priceless


For sake of all transparency I DID purchase the Nurn GP track. Best few bucks ever spent on DLC (well pretty much the ONLY few bucks spent on DLC). I have a blast on that track.

5 dollars for a track or 10 cars is an amazing price, he is just trolling as he doesnt even know the real price. If the price is right and i like the contents i dont mind spending 100, 200, 300, etc dollars in a game that i enjoy and keep getting fresh contents.
Plus i know im could get all for much less if i wait for the complete edition.

 

[McLaren]

No surprise seeing Ruf instead of Porsche in FM4, the last 10 years of gaming history has teach us that, if a game features Ruf, is because it doesn't have Porsche in it.

So because GT & PGR followed this route means that's how it is? I don't think so....

Original price of the game= 60$
Price for each DLC package= 10$
Number of total payable DLC's= 8
Total of the game including DLC's= $140
Realization of paying more than double of the original cost of the game= Priceless

LOL WUT?

Last I checked, Forza was by FAR from the first game to do what you described.
1) That's just how DLC normally works. Eventually, it will cost as much as the original game depending on the amount of DLC released.
2) You don't have to buy it.

BTW, someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't each DLC pack actually priced around $6-7? I'm pretty positive they were never $10 a piece.

 

[The_Paladin]

So because GT & PGR followed this route means that's how it is? I don't think so....

LOL WUT?

Last I checked, Forza was by FAR from the first game to do what you described.
1) That's just how DLC normally works. Eventually, it will cost as much as the original game depending on the amount of DLC released.
2) You don't have to buy it.

BTW, someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't each DLC pack actually priced around $6-7? I'm pretty positive they were never $10 a piece.

400 points= 5 bucks this is what Forza packs cost.
800 points= 10 bucks
1200 points= 15 bucks

He doesnt know what the hell he is talking about.

 

[McLaren]

Thats what I thought. It was only around $6 max if you didn't have just enough points & had to buy a MS pack which was around 500 points (iirc).

 

[cuco33]

I only see the argument that because RUF is in FM4, then Porsche won't be simply due to the whole GT franchise going that route. We've heard this song and dance before of when 1 game (GT) does something that others do because they "can't", like 'auto makers don't allow damage to their cars' as the excuse for GT's lack of damage and eventual half assed damage system they have in GT5.. and yet all other racing games have the exact same car brands with a damage system. There's 1 example in terms of RUF + Porsche being conflict and that was the PGR series, which by PGR3/4 was around the time that Forza became Microsoft's racing prodigy and could explain why PGR switched from Porsche to RUF. There's obviously a license thing there, but the question I have is why does GT not have Porsche, still to this day.

When you look at the facts as I pointed them out in my post #135, it makes no sense at all why FM4 would not have Porsche in it. Toss in also that apparently Porsche could not be used in promo material for FM4 and it makes perfect sense to me why RUFs are being used as the DLC incentives and not Porsches like in FM3.


Just look at the facts folks..
Is it more likely that a game franchise go from having 15 Porsches (FM1) to 25 Porsches (FM2) to 34 Porsches (FM3) to none??? and that the dev gifted the fastest Porsche in the game to everyone (not just VIP)..? with the re-release having an exclusive Porsche in it..? with a community voted pack having a Porsche in it? with 4 out of the 11 released DLCs having a Porsche in it..? And we're supposed to expect that Porsche does NOT make it to FM4? My bet is on that the famous Stuttgart brand DOES make it in, and I have not seen a single valid reason why it won't.

 

[Luminis]

Good thing I'm not wasting money on games I kinda sorta like a bit, but only go with what I really enjoy, so i don't mind spending 400MSP for ten cars if I like them.

 

[Bogie 19th]

The packs I bought were 400ms points ($5)

 

[zr1chris]

Just look at the facts folks..
Is it more likely that a game franchise go from having 15 Porsches (FM1) to 25 Porsches (FM2) to 34 Porsches (FM3) to none??? and that the dev gifted the fastest Porsche in the game to everyone (not just VIP)..? with the re-release having an exclusive Porsche in it..? with a community voted pack having a Porsche in it? with 4 out of the 11 released DLCs having a Porsche in it..?

I agree with you. On another note PGR did go from having 2 (PGR1) to 10 (PGR2) to none.

 

[cuco33]

I agree with you. On another note PGR did go from having 2 (PGR1) to 10 (PGR2) to none.

Which is why I said Forza is MS's racing prodigy now. PGR3 had RUF but no Porsche and before PGR3 launched, Forza 1 was around for a few months with Porsche in it. Forza 2 launched 2 years after PGR3 and it increased it's Porsche count from the original. Maybe MS didn't want to pay twice for Porsche and is a reason why you see only the RUFs in PGR3 and 4 all while Forza was still churning out games and DLC with Porsche. Now with PGR5 nowhere on the horizon, not even a blurb or rumor, we see Forza 4 potentially having both auto manufacturers. Since MS's racing games have always featured a Porsche, and since PGR switched from Porsche to RUF while the Forzas continued to increase the Porsche count, as well as be part of incentives from VIP/LCE to the re-release of the FUC to even being gifts from T10... it's one of those.

The odds are that Porsche is in, not the other way around. It would be an absolute shame if Porsche doesn't make it and seeing all the love from MS/T10 over the years, it wouldn't make sense if it misses the new release.

I am a HUGE Porsche fan, both the street cars and their racers. I will still buy Forza 4 just as I still bought all the GTs without Porsche being in it. But I'd be very disappointed.

 

[Da-Bomber]

Now they let you buy cars individually or from the pack which is pretty cool. This will help people who don't want to buy the whole pack and just want that super car in a pack of hybrids. http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/community.aspx

 

[Luminis]

That's good news indeed! 👍

 

[eSZee]

I never said it wouldn't be a lose-lose.

However, in terms of who would be better off, it would be EA

MS is in bed with activision and COD franchise. Remember when that announcement was made last year, EA came out with some PS3 exclusivity news as well.
Anyway, PORSCHE is owned by VAG now, for the most part, so you would assume that as soon as the EA/PORSCHE contract runs out, they would be fair game. You would also think that would be enough for EA to let sony have porsche for GT5, maybe they are working on porsche DLC?
Anyone know the length of the contract?

 

[Bogie 19th]

MS is sleeping with EA, UBI, and Activision lately...and that is annoying.

 

[Da-Bomber]

MS is sleeping with EA, UBI, and Activision lately...and that is annoying.

Indeed.