Porsche's Gran Turismo 7 Vision GT Car: New Details Coming in December

[Samus]

I genuinely have a hard time understanding why people still have an issue with this in 2021. Should this be in GT ? Should it be less ridiculous and more realistic ? Is it a marketing ploy ? Its all debatable and I understand the debate but at the same time it shouldn't be debatable at all because its all pretty moving numbers and letters with nice sounds at the end of the day. Whether or not this thing should be in the game instead that thing and allocating assets, dev time, budget in a brand that has built to be fake and make money from people twiddling their thumbs thumbs on tiny round sticks and pressing triggers OR a toy steering wheel. I genuinely have a hard time understanding why people have an issue with this in 2021.

I just told you why. If you're breaking things down to absurd levels like that then we might as well not have a discussion forum. Apparently nothing matters.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I love the VGT project as a styling exercise, but honestly, most of them are terrible to drive in the game. Ride heights too low, suspension too hard and often too much power for their grip. Most also doesn't allow much tuning, so it's hard to rectify the problems. So you just drive them once, and park them forever (unless you're a big photomode user). This being Porsche, I hope they pay more attention to how the car actually drives and not just the looks.

 

[05XR8]

Have to agree with you there.

The irony is that it would take longer to build fantasy vehicles (or at least even fictional racing versions of real cars). Don't get me wrong, as much as I would love to have more real life cars, I also love the idea of VGT as a whole, as it allows manufacturers and designers to have more creative freedom in designing their ideal car for the Gran Turismo universe, whether it's building a stunning design exercise or something high-tech and almost borderline science-fiction, it does have some past, present and future involved in it in some way, and that it eventually led to the development of real-life vehicles (you won't have the Bugatti Chiron, Toyota GR Supra or IsoRivolta Zagato GTZ without the VGT program).

Alas, concepts are also part of car culture, celebrating design and technology, no matter how realistic or absurd it may be. The idea of it alone is to either look back at the brand's roots, preview new design language or explore new means of going around with the design and technologies of these cars, even if in real life, the chances of driving them are almost little to none, unless the spirit of that car will be translated into a production version.

In the development of the FT-86, we went along for the ride, from concepts to the finished model. Even got racing variants through to the GT Sport Gr.4 86.

We see PD took the time to finally model the RX-Vision Concept ‘15. This allows the RX-V GT3 to fit in with the brand. Will Mazda-PD collaborate for a Gr.4 car? I don’t know. If they are or working on a Gr.4 version, maybe some players would prefer PD spent the time modelling a real IMSA GT RX-8.

Sometimes, even special cars like the Drift and Time Attack Subarus, could have been left out, in favour of something else. Maybe that’s how some players feel about the cars PD choose.

 

[ArR29]

I'm pretty sure Vision GT is a continuous project not one and done. And I see nothing wrong with PD flexing their partnership with various manufacturers. It's good for them, it's good for the franchise.

I will never understand this ''I don't like this type of content therefore they should get rid of it'' mentality, it's totally head scratching.
Sure, you despise it, but that doesn't mean a lot of people do. There are probably thousands
of kids out there who enjoy driving these type of cars in the game and find them fascinating. It doesn't hurt the franchise in any type of way. And Gran Turismo is for everyone not just certain type of sim racer.

And it's not like the whole modelling team stop doing their job just because there's a new VGT in the process.

 

[Samus]

I will never understand this ''I don't like this type of content therefore they should get rid of it'' mentality, it's totally head scratching.

Never said that. I gave you objective reasons why it has been detrimental to the game.

Sure, you despise it, but that doesn't mean a lot of people do. There are probably thousands
of kids out there who enjoy driving these type of cars in the game and find them fascinating. It doesn't hurt the franchise in any type of way. And Gran Turismo is for everyone not just certain type of sim racer.

Luckily PD have plenty of data on this, they can see exactly how many people are buying and driving each car. Sadly we are not privvy to that data but I strongly doubt most VGTs are getting more use than a majority of real cars.

They can't include infinite cars in the game, they ALWAYS have to make choices. I'm sure if you included a combine harvester and a gritting lorry there would be people out there that would enjoy them, but that's not the point. Far more people would enjoy a Ferrari 488, I'm pretty sure, so that would be a more logical choice. Of course it's never that simple, I'm not saying we'd have got the 488 if not for a VGT, licensing is always a minefield and it was just an example. The point is, PD are always making choices. They can't model everything, so surely logic dictates you start with the most popular stuff and work your way down.

And it's not like the whole modelling team stop doing their job just because there's a new VGT in the process.

No but again, every VGT needs modelling. The person doing that car, whether internal at PD or outsourced, can't be doing another one. It's not limitless. If they can do 80 cars a year or whatever, they have to choose those 80. I just don't think they're choosing wisely.

 

[Imari]

If a Porsche VGT is not a sporty performance coupe, I don't know what would be one.

Something isn't a sporty performance coupe simply by virtue of having a Porsche badge on it. See: Cayenne.

I agree that it's likely to fit the criteria, but there's also a real chance they just go the race car route that so many other manufacturers have. A car can be sporty and have two doors, but if it's basically undrivable on a real road then it's hard to see it as a Grand Tourer. Nobody's driving across Europe in the McLaren VGT, it's pure race car.

 

[sparkytooth]

It's almost like this is a discussion forum or something...

Yeah, its almost like I'm talking about something on a discussion forum smarty pants. Never made sense to me why people make posts like this, its literally filler or just wasting time like I can't say anything to anyone because they said something on a forum?

 

[Northstar]

Yeah, its almost like I'm talking about something on a discussion forum smarty pants.

You seemed to have an issue with someone posting their opinion, just wanted to make sure you knew that's the whole point of this place. 👍

 

[sparkytooth]

You seemed to have an issue with someone posting their opinion, just wanted to make sure you knew that's the whole point of this place. 👍

That's what a discussion is, if I didn't feel a certain way about what someone else said it wouldn't be a discussion, it'd be an echo chamber.

This entire forum relies on replying to other people.

 

[TS050]

PD added like 4 VGTs to the game in the years following GT Sports release but the way some of y’all talk about it it’s like those four cars took so much time to model it’s the reason we don’t have a car list that’s closing in on 1000 for GT7

Moreover, concept cars have been a part of GT since day one? Clearly we’re still going to be able to buy a used car and build up from there, so how does the inclusion of one VGT change the entire ethos of the game?

 

[XSquareStickIt]

I genuinely have a hard time understanding why people still have an issue with this in 2021. Should this be in GT ? Should it be less ridiculous and more realistic ? Is it a marketing ploy ? Its all debatable and I understand the debate but at the same time it shouldn't be debatable at all because its all pretty moving numbers and letters with nice sounds at the end of the day. Whether or not this thing should be in the game instead that thing and allocating assets, dev time, budget in a brand that has built to be fake and make money from people twiddling their thumbs thumbs on tiny round sticks and pressing triggers OR a toy steering wheel. I genuinely have a hard time understanding why people have an issue with this in 2021.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm on the side of the fence that abhors VGTs.

As Legend has already pointed put, a lot of them drive horrible. The Subaru VIZIV and Zagato Isorivolta feel like they've been whisked as-is from another planet with different physics from GT Sport's and given no modifications to make them drive well. The Viziv is easily among the worst handling of "cars" I've driven in Sport, with the first three gears being unusuably short, causing mad wheelspin in spite of its AWD, and at speed, its torque vectoring makes it snappy and unpredictable to drive. It's also set so stupidly low that it scrapes in the home straight tunnel of Tokyo East, and it's a car that can take dirt tyres.

One or two concept cars, maybe this wouldn't be a big deal. But almost all of the VGT cars have weird vices like that. The tyres on the Mercedes VGT look more painted on than mounted, and the VW Supersport VGT doesn't even have a fuel inlet. It makes the game look more like Mario Kart than Gran Turismo. Most of them are eyesores with no interiors. Even the more realistic ones, like the Daihatsu Copen VGT and BMW VGT, just makes me yearn for the real GR Copen and M2 Competition instead of loving the VGTs. Even if I were to treat them as a marketing exercise, they've got me wanting more. But there is no more after the manufacturers are done dropping their turds on Kaz's hands. It just feels like a bad, rude tease at best.

Then there's also the fact that they all cost a freaking million credits and are completely, utterly useless in the game. Yes, Concept Cars have always been a part of the series, but at least those felt realistic. Those were useful. A del Sol LM might be laughable, but at least it can be used in a few events and raced closely with other cars of its ilk, even tuned real cars. It doesn't look like a spaceship. It was about the players and the game and not about the manufacturer. Imagine paying to be advertised to. No thanks.

 

[JD_18]

In the forum of course everything is debatable, this does't mean that everything discussed have sense or contributes something significant.

The VGT program is liked by many people.

The fact that Polyphony has partnerships and makes GT-exclusive cars from major manufacturers lends status to the franchise. Some are real btw

We can enjoy the imagination of real brand designers, they are not random people.

As already said, that someone models a VGT does not mean that it is replaced by another.

Concept cars have always been part of automotive culture. Few things represent GT better than automotive culture.

Gran Turismo isnt perfect, but this is not the problem en never was

You may like it or not, you can express it. But there is not much to discuss here, it is a very subjective, therefore, it does not matter to discuss it, honestly.

 

[ExoticMachines]

I would like to see all the VGT cars have interior and open doors for photography. 👍

 

[ArR29]

Never said that. I gave you objective reasons why it has been detrimental to the game.

Luckily PD have plenty of data on this, they can see exactly how many people are buying and driving each car. Sadly we are not privvy to that data but I strongly doubt most VGTs are getting more use than a majority of real cars.

They can't include infinite cars in the game, they ALWAYS have to make choices. I'm sure if you included a combine harvester and a gritting lorry there would be people out there that would enjoy them, but that's not the point. Far more people would enjoy a Ferrari 488, I'm pretty sure, so that would be a more logical choice. Of course it's never that simple, I'm not saying we'd have got the 488 if not for a VGT, licensing is always a minefield and it was just an example. The point is, PD are always making choices. They can't model everything, so surely logic dictates you start with the most popular stuff and work your way down.

No but again, every VGT needs modelling. The person doing that car, whether internal at PD or outsourced, can't be doing another one. It's not limitless. If they can do 80 cars a year or whatever, they have to choose those 80. I just don't think they're choosing wisely.

What makes you say that it isn't wise? If you own and actually played the game all of 165 DLC cars in GTSport only 6 are Vision GT. Not quite sure why you're talking like all of their resources went to modelling Vision GT cars. The manufactures gave all the data to PD, and I'm pretty sure there's no licensing involved, all they have to do is to model the cars and make it playable. So, please tell me why 6 of 165 DLC cars that's been added are detrimental to the game. Vision GT is optional, PD isn't forcing you to drive them, it's there so people could try these fictional cars.

Sure, if you don't like them that's totally fine, I'm not a huge fan of hypercars either but I have don't recall myself saying that they should stop adding them because I prefer normal everyday cars, that's just doesn't make any sense. Why take away things that some people find enjoyable?

 

[Muller_cj]

Sounds like the entire Gran Turismo series, from 1997 to 2022, just isn't for you then.

Why is there an "instead"? We're not missing out on cars in Gran Turismo because some other cars are there instead; we get all the cars we can get. Omitting a car doesn't mean it can be replaced with something else, it means it's omitted.

In away you could be missing out on real cars, they don't just magically appear in the game.. What did kaz say 3 months of man hours to build a model for the game even more if its fictional.

By that argument as there is not, infinite build time or 3D artists, at PD, every VGT modelled means one less real car.

 

[MIE1992]

Whoop dee doo, more imaginary cars based on imaginary technology that even if it were somehow real would probably be made in single digit numbers with an eight digit price tag.

So much for Gran Turismo going back to it's roots: the game where you got to drive and modify everyday cars.

Did you not see the R33 getting modded in the release date trailer? It really seems GT7 is going to include both driving and modifying everyday cars, but also futuristic stuff. Hence that statement from Kaz saying that GT7 is a combination of the past, present and future.

 

[Famine]

In away you could be missing out on real cars, they don't just magically appear in the game.

They also don't magically get licensed.

What did kaz say 3 months of man hours to build a model for the game even more if its fictional.

Actually no, he didn't say that.

With the example of a real GT3 car, he said something like that would take six months, but it could take a year to make fictional GT3 car like the RCZ which has no real-world version.

I happen to know this with great certainty, because he was speaking to me when he said it:

GTP: How did you select the 25 manufacturers for the FIA Championship?

KY: There’s no real standard for it per se. We needed to make Gr.3 cars for each of those manufacturers for the FIA championship. To make those cars is quite a bit of effort. They’re actually very hard to make properly; to make an existing GT3 car is not as hard, but in order to make a fantasy GT3 car it takes a lot of effort in the design stages.

GTP: Especially cars like the RCZ – front-engined, front-wheel drive becomes mid-engined, rear-wheel drive.

KY: To think about those kinds of designs and work them out is really fun. But at the same time a car that would normally take six months to produce takes a year to produce. That really ramps up the amount of work that our teams have to do.

By that argument as there is not, infinite build time or 3D artists, at PD, every VGT modelled means one less real car.

It really doesn't unless you think licences happen by magic.

For that matter, VGTs take considerably less time than almost anything else to make, because there is no car to scan. PD get the digital CAD files right from the manufacturer. They're the easiest (relatively speaking) cars to produce - while the fictional Gr3 cars are the biggest time sink of all.

And even taking that into consideration, in the last four years there have been five VGTs in total added to the game. All the rest came from GT Sport, plus the seven added between GT6 and GTS (some of which ought to have been in GT6 anyway).


We're not talking about a modelling team being too busy to make models of real cars (that they don't have the licence to include anyway) because of Vision GT. No VGT is taking the place of a real car you could have had instead. It's taking the place of... nothing.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I love the VGT project as a styling exercise, but honestly, most of them are terrible to drive in the game. Ride heights too low, suspension too hard and often too much power for their grip. Most also doesn't allow much tuning, so it's hard to rectify the problems.

Many cars in GT Sport are like this, not just the VGT's

 

[Samus]

What makes you say that it isn't wise? If you own and actually played the game all of 165 DLC cars in GTSport only 6 are Vision GT. Not quite sure why you're talking like all of their resources went to modelling Vision GT cars. The manufactures gave all the data to PD, and I'm pretty sure there's no licensing involved, all they have to do is to model the cars and make it playable. So, please tell me why 6 of 165 DLC cars that's been added are detrimental to the game. Vision GT is optional, PD isn't forcing you to drive them, it's there so people could try these fictional cars.

Sure, if you don't like them that's totally fine, I'm not a huge fan of hypercars either but I have don't recall myself saying that they should stop adding them because I prefer normal everyday cars, that's just doesn't make any sense. Why take away things that some people find enjoyable?

Why are you focusing on the DLC cars? Where did I specifically take issue with the DLC? I spoke of the game at launch, and that they've modelled nearly 50 of these cars since it started with GT6. That is 50 cars that cost time and resources, time that could've been better spent IMO modelling other cars. Again, I explained this quite clearly in my post, with examples.

Also you're clearly not reading my message if you think I'm suggesting "all their resources" went into modelling them. I clearly explained the choices they're making with every single car they model, and why I personally don't think it's the best use of their limited resources.

You're not a huge fan of hypercars but I'm sure you understand that they're highly popular in the general population. VGT, on the other hand, I struggle to believe they're wildly popular but again, only PD has the actual data.

I also never suggested they take anything away. Not sure why you're just inventing things I haven't said.

We're not talking about a modelling team being too busy to make models of real cars (that they don't have the licence to include anyway) because of Vision GT. No VGT is taking the place of a real car you could have had instead. It's taking the place of... nothing.

Disagree. Of course cars have to be licensed and what have you but that is surely constantly happening. It's not like if they weren't modelling a VGT then a 3D modeller would be sat their twiddling their thumbs just waiting, they can't afford to do that. PD are surely constantly agreeing licenses and I'd not be surprised if they don't have a backlog of licensed cars waiting to be modelled. Why else would we regularly get new cars to the series that are 2-3 years old?

Also when it comes to modern real cars they also get CAD data for those, so that's no different from the VGT.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Not a fan of VGT, I feel it's self indulgent ingratiation with manufacturers rather than something that advances the game.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Disagree. Of course cars have to be licensed and what have you but that is surely constantly happening. It's not like if they weren't modelling a VGT then a 3D modeller would be sat their twiddling their thumbs just waiting, they can't afford to do that. PD are surely constantly agreeing licenses and I'd not be surprised if they don't have a backlog of licensed cars waiting to be modelled. Why else would we regularly get new cars to the series that are 2-3 years old?

Also when it comes to modern real cars they also get CAD data for those, so that's no different from the VGT.

This makes perfect sense! If it's true then we have a lot of new cars to come!

 

[05XR8]

However, we don't know how many manufacturers/cars(other than Lotus and the SCG thing) turned away or scrapped, due to licencing issues.

I made a thread about new Caterham owners. We also have a O factor in Kaz not approaching manufacturers. He's mentioned, he didn't even know some brands wanted to be in the game(though we see how he sought out Ruf from way back).

There are sure to be a fair amount of factors, as to why we don't see some brands and maybe a VGT hasn't effected any other car from being in the franchise.

 

[Samus]

I just don't see it possible that if we didn't have these 50 odd VGTs, we'd have 50 less cars in the game. I don't buy it.

Of course I'm not saying the VGTs are why we don't have any specific car, like the 488 example, that obviously does come down to licensing with Ferrari and nothing to do with VGTs directly.

I just don't believe that the outcome for the last 8 years was 50 VGTs or nothing.

 

[Imari]

Did you not see the R33 getting modded in the release date trailer? It really seems GT7 is going to include both driving and modifying everyday cars, but also futuristic stuff. Hence that statement from Kaz saying that GT7 is a combination of the past, present and future.

I did see the car modification in the trailer, and that looks good.

The futuristic stuff I would prefer to be futuristic like real concept cars that actually have lineage into cars that will potentially get made. For example, the FT-1 that eventually became the new Supra. Great! Some of the VGTs have been like this, cars that could conceivably be made and sold. But a lot of them are just designed as pure race cars with no clear way that they could evolve into something relevant to a consumer.

I would prefer not to have more imaginary racecars and "technology demonstrators" for technology that doesn't exist or isn't physically plausible. These cars either won't exist or will exist only in extremely limited numbers as a marketing tool. They're not intended to ever be driven by a real human, which I feel is an important characteristic for a game that purports to be realistic. I think if you look at the VGTs that were made before and after the Chaparral, you can see when designers realised that Polyphony wasn't going to pull them up on anything that was too out there.

I'm not against concept cars in general. I think the original idea of the Vision Gran Turismo project was a good one. I think it's gotten too far into the realm of what is essentially engineering fantasy cars for my taste, and I'd like to see it rebooted with a more defined set of constraints - at minimum, that there's a base model of the car that would be drivable by a normal human on a public road. If they want to make racing variants of their road going concepts, then sure.

I'm not making the argument that these concepts should be replaced with real cars, if Polyphony wants concept cars then they're goning to get them one way or another. If they wanted more real cars, they'd have done it already. But I think that these concept cars could be better selected to be appropriate for a Gran Turismo game.

To me, Gran Turismo was and is about real cars and realistic cars. Not fantasy cars made purely so that the engineers can display how massive their tools are. I'm sure lots of people love driving the cars, but lots of people love Ridge Racer too. I question whether these fantasy cars are appropriate for Gran Turismo, when Polyphony could be working with the manufacturers on something more applicable to their players.

For example, what if Polyphony asked all the manufacturers to supply a concept for a road legal electric only GT car with an expected price of ~$100K USD or less? One that could be made and produced with technology reasonably expected to be available in 2025. That's a near future concept car with potential real world applications, that doesn't let the manufacturers simply waltz off into fairy land and probably ends up with a class of cars that will all race reasonably well together.

What if every new GT game then came up with a new concept for the manufacturers to work to? It could be a unique feature of each generation of GT games with distinct differences between them, rather than a cheap tool for car manufacturers to use when they need marketing buzz.

 

[GBalao888]

This makes perfect sense! If it's true then we have a lot of new cars to come!

Mind you, the CAD data, often straight from the manufacturers themselves, would be necessary for cars made in 2006 or newer. Anything older than that will need a physical car to be sourced and manually scanned by Polyphony themselves. Just heard it from a post claiming that Polyphony had scanned a Fiat Coupe Turbo somewhere.

As for race cars, I think they'll also need a physical car to scan to get even the minor details (especially those that differentiate it from the same of its kind) spot-on.

 

[Ryan81]

Let's just hope that we see plenty of new content in terms of real life cars and not fantasy models. Had far too many of those in GTS.

 

[Imari]

Mind you, the CAD data, often straight from the manufacturers themselves, would be necessary for cars made in 2006 or newer. Anything older than that will need a physical car to be sourced and manually scanned by Polyphony themselves.

Why 2006? That seems like an oddly specific date.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It's a bloody outrage, there's too many of these types of car in the game already...





... by which I mean Porsches.

 

[ArR29]

Why are you focusing on the DLC cars? Where did I specifically take issue with the DLC? I spoke of the game at launch, and that they've modelled nearly 50 of these cars since it started with GT6. That is 50 cars that cost time and resources, time that could've been better spent IMO modelling other cars. Again, I explained this quite clearly in my post, with examples.

Also you're clearly not reading my message if you think I'm suggesting "all their resources" went into modelling them. I clearly explained the choices they're making with every single car they model, and why I personally don't think it's the best use of their limited resources.

You're not a huge fan of hypercars but I'm sure you understand that they're highly popular in the general population. VGT, on the other hand, I struggle to believe they're wildly popular but again, only PD has the actual data.

I also never suggested they take anything away. Not sure why you're just inventing things I haven't said.


Disagree. Of course cars have to be licensed and what have you but that is surely constantly happening. It's not like if they weren't modelling a VGT then a 3D modeller would be sat their twiddling their thumbs just waiting, they can't afford to do that. PD are surely constantly agreeing licenses and I'd not be surprised if they don't have a backlog of licensed cars waiting to be modelled. Why else would we regularly get new cars to the series that are 2-3 years old?

Also when it comes to modern real cars they also get CAD data for those, so that's no different from the VGT.

50 cars in a span of almost a decade is detrimental to the series?
Whether these cars are popular or not is irrelevant, VGT program is unique to Gran Turismo, it doesn't hurt the franchise or the players in any type of way, there's no point stopping it. And it's a good marketing for both PD and the manufacturers.

I just don't see it possible that if we didn't have these 50 odd VGTs, we'd have 50 less cars in the game. I don't buy it.

Of course I'm not saying the VGTs are why we don't have any specific car, like the 488 example, that obviously does come down to licensing with Ferrari and nothing to do with VGTs directly.

I just don't believe that the outcome for the last 8 years was 50 VGTs or nothing.

Not having VGT program doesn't mean we would have 50 more cars either.

 

[Imari]

Whether these cars are popular or not is irrelevant, VGT program is unique to Gran Turismo, it doesn't hurt the franchise or the players in any type of way, there's no point stopping it.

Whether they're popular is absolutely not irrelevant. If Polyphony added a bunch of cars to the game that absolutely nobody wanted to play with, that could rightly be described as hurting the franchise. That's time and resources that went into something that did nothing to improve the game.

To be clear, the VGTs are not that, some people do want to play with them and the games are better for having them as opposed to nothing at all.

But the question can fairly be asked whether the current implementation of the VGT program is the best that Polyphony could be doing for the franchise and it's players. Writing it off as "it doesn't matter" is just refusing to look at it critically, there are ways in which the VGT program doesn't seem to fit with Polyphony's explicit or implicit goals for Gran Turismo. That it has some positives doesn't mean that the negatives shouldn't be considered, it just means that all aspects should be taken into account when discussing the matter.