Power limiter

[shirakawaa]

Or, to be more accurate, the average power developed in gear - that is, the average power that is being used is dependent on the gear ratios. The next test would be to repeat with the close-ratio box.

I implicitely meant in gear.
A close ratio gearbox (with a small rpm drop between each gear) would somewhat level performance differences if you manage to get your engine to work very close to peak power, since that's where engine power itself changes the least, at least in the case of the stock NSX (this might not be the case on cars with more peaky engines).

In general however, the car with a flat power curve is always in advantage since it doesn't need to change gear as often (or to have very closely spaced gears) to develop the same average power.

 

[s-oso]

dark_ruffo

Can you test another scenario with nsx-r? No hp upgrades (engine, exhaust, air intake...) all non hp upgrades (aero, weights, flywheel...). That way we can see how fully upgraded and hp restricted car compare with fully upgraded unrestricted.

 

[D_M]

As people are seeing, there really is no way to ensure "fairness" by capping horsepower, or weight, or Performance Points, or what have you - you can make it far more even than without these caps, but there is always wiggle room unless you are using identical cars with identical tunes.

I'm trying to follow your logic here, but isn't the point to set the rules. Everyone will know what the rules are, so you'll be beaten by a better tuner. Same cars and identical tunes don't work, because the car will fit one driver's style better.

 

[Wolf-M]

I m a host every day! i kick all unfair drivers, no problem at all. just join to good host games. I even dont qualify to race, all I do is checing all players who I dont know to drive safe and clean and use cars for particular race! PD had great work on this pach! but still online needs more restrictions! like drivetrain (FF,FR,RR,MR,4WD) and year of the cars. so we can set oldschool race and new type of motorsports etc. but for now its just awesome! keep up great updates!

So it was you I raced against today....

 

[dark_ruffo]

dark_ruffo

Can you test another scenario with nsx-r? No hp upgrades (engine, exhaust, air intake...) all non hp upgrades (aero, weights, flywheel...). That way we can see how fully upgraded and hp restricted car compare with fully upgraded unrestricted.

Me no get it

 

[s-oso]

You ever take a look at the rules book for a real racing series? There is a reason they are hundreds of pages long, and require very specific knowledge to understand. It is very difficult to make even very similar cars provide a level playing field; much more complicated to make vastly different types of cars competitive.

The fact is, if you really want to see the difference in drivers, you need to force everyone to use identical cars - which sort of defeats the purpose of having everyone tune their own cars. As people are seeing, there really is no way to ensure "fairness" by capping horsepower, or weight, or Performance Points, or what have you - you can make it far more even than without these caps, but there is always wiggle room unless you are using identical cars with identical tunes.

It is really hard to determine actuall HP of real race cars, thats why they have so many rules to manage even racing fields. GT5 is a video game, it could be made very easy for the online host to implement restrictions. He could restrict races by HP, weight, car year, engine displacement, turbo, race modifications... All that could be possible. But we can't do that because PD deemed we don't need this option! Before the latest patch we at least had HP and weight cap. Now both are made almost useless with power limiter and ballast, so we are stuck with Performance Points and those are quite frankly odd.

 

[Glitter]

Just make it possible to turn it off online! Would solve everything.

 

[s-oso]

Me no get it

Take stock NSX-R, give it racing springs, all drivetrain upgrades, all weight reduction upgrades, every upgrade that does not increase horse power and compare it to one that is fully upgraded with engine restricted.

 

[Big Ron]

Why is everyone critising this feature? Everybody can use it his own way and it is not said, that every server now cuts 50% of the power of your car.

It is great for NASCAR-races especially, which are waaaayyyy too fast and now you can get their real speed (+ the slipstream acting like nitrous oxide injection ).

It does not mean, that everyone is using it.

 

[D_M]

But it is like a Full second faster on the same PP rating. 1 full second you could only achieve it with very fine tuning on suspension and gearing, and that stuff, considering both "cars" (the same car diferent power aproaches) share the very same chassis, put the very same grip on the road, the same cornering ability.

The power limiting itself acts like a "cheat" button if you ask me.

It's tough to tell what's happening. Are you using an auto transmission to test your theory? I would suggest saving your replays and analyzing them to understand what's happening. I don't think it's a cheat button, you just discovered that your current tune is better with the cap.

 

[dark_ruffo]

Take stock NSX-R, give it racing springs, all drivetrain upgrades, all weight reduction upgrades, every upgrade that does not increase horse power and compare it to one that is fully upgraded with engine restricted.

Understood.

NSX R on stock power and hard sports tires.


286cv
1051kg
462PP
2:19.491.

All non power booster updates but aero parts installed (drive train, LSD, suspension stage 3 weight reduction, suspension reinforcement, etc no wings added)

The weight alone makes up for the power band disadvantage, but it raises the PP quite a bit to be called evenly matched.

^I'm using manual transmision.

Even though I didn't save the replays, I could somehow tell what was happening, in the uphill sections (like the one before degner) the "limited car" would suffer from lack of acceleration, but even with it's lower acceleration compared to the fully stock one, the limited car would have more speed carried over the previous corners as a result from better acceleration in the plain sections (the S corners), like if it maintained enough momentum to be held back by the lower accel.

 

[Griffith500]

I implicitely meant in gear.
A close ratio gearbox (with a small rpm drop between each gear) would somewhat level performance differences if you manage to get your engine to work very close to peak power, since that's where engine power itself changes the least, at least in the case of the stock NSX (this might not be the case on cars with more peaky engines).

In general however, the car with a flat power curve is always in advantage since it doesn't need to change gear as often (or to have very closely spaced gears) to develop the same average power.

Sounds like the approach taken in many unlimited classes - big engine, wide torque curve, flat-ish power curve. A bit like the Chapparal, and it's 3-speed auto.

After thinking about this limiter system a bit more, the only way it'd work is to have an electronically controlled throttle valve (or similar), otherwise it'd get dangerously lean in the higher rpm range.

This system seems to climb the power curve until the limit is reached and then adjusts the torque curve to maintain that maximum until the power curve drops below the required peak again (if at all).
In Prologue, the torque and power curves were actually shifted and changed shape. Using that system, the limiter here would simply reduce peak torque and flatten the torque curve slightly overall to also achieve a lower peak horsepower figure. I think that would be more suitable, as you've mentioned elsewhere.

Perhaps an online option should allow the horsepower limit to be effected by either method - i.e. "power limiter" or "restrictor (plate)". So you set the horsepower limit numerically and also the choice of limiting method for cars that would otherwise have too much power, which (automatically) overrides any such settings on the car.

It really is complicated.

 

[DAG0-CHOPPERS61]

Just make it possible to turn it off online! Would solve everything.

WINNER WINNER if we could click to turn limited off! that would be perfect!

now i have to police my rooms.

they have ran perfect for over a month!

 

[s-oso]

WINNER WINNER if we could click to turn limited off! that would be perfect!

now i have to police my rooms.

they have ran perfect for over a month!

Exactly, Power Points aren't exactly bad and power limiter kinda does work with them, but for serious racing rooms there should be an option to turn power limiter off and everyone would be happy.

 

[NEO-666]

I think they need to change something back... this new power limiter, as I found out the hard (easy) way, running a Toyota GT-One (detuned) in a 550HP limited race just walks all over the competition. Even though it had the same power, and a bit less weight, it has much better downforce and aerodynamic efficiency, and waltzed past any competition on the straights, and ran rings around the corners. It needs to be heavily limited, so maybe only up to 50HP can be detuned...and run in a HP count, not a percentage...

I also welcome the PP system, but why the hell can't we also limit the weight or power alongside it??

 

[Griffith500]

I think they need to change something back... this new power limiter, as I found out the hard (easy) way, running a Toyota GT-One (detuned) in a 550HP limited race just walks all over the competition. Even though it had the same power, and a bit less weight, it has much better downforce and aerodynamic efficiency, and waltzed past any competition on the straights, and ran rings around the corners. It needs to be heavily limited, so maybe only up to 50HP can be detuned...and run in a HP count, not a percentage...

I also welcome the PP system, but why the hell can't we also limit the weight or power alongside it??

The PP system is designed to account for this, but the extra power or weight limit would help.

 

[Tornado]

Why not just have selectable limits in the lobby regarding how much a car can be toned down?

Power limiter of 50% is just ridiculous. 0-5% would be easily enough to fill the purpose of the limiter which is fitting your slightly overpowered car to the regulations of the online room/race series/time trial.

You knock any more than 25% of the cars power with the limiter, and 9/10 times any car with a peakier torque curve is going to absolutely walk away from it in a race.

 

[Darktuna]

I have been racing all morning just using the pp restrictions at various settings, even with race cars, and street cars in the mix, its rather balanced. I say Kudos.

 

[Tommy_861]

So the power deliver becomes even when limiting the power?

Will that make a car with the power limited to 50% outputting 300hp, better than a car maxi tuned to 300hp with an uneven power deliver? Wider power band vs narrower power band.

300hp Ford GT will kill like everything on that range, NSX-R included.

The tuned car is better. We tried running my tuned Miata against my cousin's tuned 207 last night. I am a faster driver than he is. My Miata was 270hp, his car 253 hp. My PP was 534 his 522, so I dropped my HP down to 220 HP (19% power drop) which brought my car to 522 PP.

We raced a couple times and I could just about beat him if only by my skills as I was driving the absolute hell out of the car. Also on every corner exit he pulled on me and even got past me at some, because the car just falls flat on its face once it hits the limit. I raced him again without the change and absolutely destroyed him by over 5 seconds. Also this was on Trial Mountain which has all hills and he gained on me on every one with the limit imposed.

Just said that in another thread, this power thing is totally stupid.
How is it a good idea racing ~ 650 hp cars against 'cheated' LMP1 cars which appear to be like 10 seconds faster per lap ???
Btw. you can't restrict PP and weight at the same time.
This ' improvement ' pretty much ruined it for me, unless there's a solution.
They should just take it out, not only it's unrealistic it's simply stupid cause there will always be heroes taking out their fastest possible cars in an online race.

This all comes down to the room host, they need to heavily restrict HP and Weight and just kick people who try and pull this move.

We had the same problem before trying to run a 500 HP street car room because Super GT cars fall into that range even with a weight limit equivalent to a fully tuned street car.

All comes down to diligence of the room host.

 

[curtis_boy]

50% is outrageous 5 to 10 % seems more like it

Or just let us add and remove engine stages that we installed

 

[Devedander]

I am curious why this was put in... what was the desire to be able to power down cars? I was personally ok with just removing mods to bring power down some so I am curious what the benefit of this is...

 

[Furinkazen]

Restrictor plate NASCAR anyone? And this could actually help my TOCA League I'm starting...

 

[SavageEvil]

Anyone else notice that your entire garage is selectable online now? I was just doing some checking in my lounge and I see that I can select any of my cars from my garage, but I'm not past 200 yet, so maybe the list has gotten bigger.

 

[GeneralJesh]

I am curious why this was put in... what was the desire to be able to power down cars? I was personally ok with just removing mods to bring power down some so I am curious what the benefit of this is...

When you buy a Ford GT LM Test Car II from the car dealer with 600hp, test it for 10km and then it magically goes to 601 HP and you have to enter a race with a 600hp limit

 

[Cold Fussion]

Looks like with this option you can basically create a constant power engine, which means you can gear the car such that you never have to change gears, thus gaining time.

 

[FULL_THROTTLE]

I just got my X1 down to 600bhp, getting into power limited lobbies with it is so fun

 

[Randum311]

I think it's great for those races your car just exceeds the limit. Appears to be somewhat even.so far at least

 

[Nielsen]

It feels very weird driving a super car with limiter on.

 

[Griffith500]

It feels very weird driving a super car with limiter on.

My Bobs don't seem to mind

 

[dark_ruffo]

I think it's great for those races your car just exceeds the limit. Appears to be somewhat even.so far at least

I just entered a room called "Super GT Clean Drivers".

Normally before the update you would find on those rooms "Super GT" cars, with fairly even stats. I entered the room I saw a Minolta, a Mazda Furai, a Nissan GTR, a couple of Super GT, a couple of DTM, the HKS Evo...

Of course, even when the room was limited to 700pp, the Minolta just rapped everyone else effortless.

Even? My ass is more even.