- 288
- amigo8833
So, just go to the room with hp and weight limitations.
Power limiter
- Thread starter DAG0-CHOPPERS61
- 91 comments
- 16,956 views
- 701
- defaultoasis
I've not tried, but I'm loving this --- having prototypes & touring cars/sportscars together. That's how real GT300 works.
shirakawaa
Premium
- 5,034
- GTP_shirakawaa
The power limiter should have worked like a real induction restrictors (which make the engine lose efficiency at all rpm, and especially at peak power and above) or as a fixed throttle limiter (which would have made the engine lose power at all rpm. Like when you don't use full throttle). This dynamic power cut-off thing they implemented is way too good and efficient, with no drawbacks. It makes other modifications lose their meaning.
- 8,721
It's a lot like the boost limiters on modern turbo cars, with their flat torque curves - only this is a flat power curve. I'm sure there's a good deal of this sort of thing going on in Sports Car racing, although I doubt it's anywhere near as much as 50%.
We'll have to wait and see how it plays out - if the low high-rpm torque really is a disadvantage, it might balance itself to being useful in only small amounts.
- 4,877
- CoolColJ, GTP_CoolColJ
Use PP that's why the old power/weight was crappy, it doesn't take into account downforce and tyres. PP does
An Audi R10 will not be able to get PP down to a lower level unless you cut power way down, add lots of extra weight and reduce downforce. I don't think it will feel too good to drive
Power/weight relies on an honor system. PP does not
But they should add drive train restrictions too
- 77
- Finland
- Zkippe
I did a quick test with Ferrari F40 at Monza:
When using power points as a limiting factor (596 in my test) the power capped car (constant 463bhp) and the normal car (peak 481bhp) are pretty much equal out of the corners but the normal car has a bit higher top speed which is due to the higher peak bhp.
When using hp/weight as a limiting factor the capped car (600 PP) was clearly faster on acceleration and top speed because this time both cars had the same 481bhp, but the capped car could produce it constantly while the normal F40s power output varied peaking at 481bhp. I changed only tuning parts and didn't touch the ballast.
So this suggests that it's better to use power points to regulate online lobbies. It just remains to be seen how well the pp-system balances race cars, stock street cars and tuned street cars with each other.
When using power points as a limiting factor (596 in my test) the power capped car (constant 463bhp) and the normal car (peak 481bhp) are pretty much equal out of the corners but the normal car has a bit higher top speed which is due to the higher peak bhp.
When using hp/weight as a limiting factor the capped car (600 PP) was clearly faster on acceleration and top speed because this time both cars had the same 481bhp, but the capped car could produce it constantly while the normal F40s power output varied peaking at 481bhp. I changed only tuning parts and didn't touch the ballast.
So this suggests that it's better to use power points to regulate online lobbies. It just remains to be seen how well the pp-system balances race cars, stock street cars and tuned street cars with each other.
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- 367
- Fragglecommader
Just incase theres any misunderstanding performance points is not standard for all online races, its an option that can be switched on/off by the host
lobbies can still be restricted using bhp, weight, tyres etc
If you dont like the performance points there will be plenty off lobbies not using them.
I did some races earlier where the host selected 650 pp points and hard tyres, the racing was superb on the 2 races we did on those settings at least 4 off us spent the race within 2 seconds off each other round rome. was also in a room set as "race for real" and im pleased to say everyone raced clean and fair. im all for performance points!!!
lobbies can still be restricted using bhp, weight, tyres etc
If you dont like the performance points there will be plenty off lobbies not using them.
I did some races earlier where the host selected 650 pp points and hard tyres, the racing was superb on the 2 races we did on those settings at least 4 off us spent the race within 2 seconds off each other round rome. was also in a room set as "race for real" and im pleased to say everyone raced clean and fair. im all for performance points!!!
- 132
- lavosim
Use PP that's why the old power/weight was crappy, it doesn't take into account downforce and tyres. PP does
An Audi R10 will not be able to get PP down to a lower level unless you cut power way down, add lots of extra weight and reduce downforce. I don't think it will feel too good to drive
Power/weight relies on an honor system. PP does not
But they should add drive train restrictions too
Even with high ballast and way down-powered R10 is a beast. One thing that pp doesn't take into account is car length/width and natural weight distribution. Even normal race cars have an advantage here, racing prototypes and formulas are on an even higher level. Hp/weight restrictions were ideal for more advanced online races. Set the range and you are off, everyone knew where we were and it was peaty easy to prevent overpowered cars like Chaparrals 2j from entering. Now they've taken that from us and we are forced to use PP system. And just from couple of races PP already appears to be a mess. I'm just out of a game where I smoked everyone in Yellowbird RUF, with 40% engine restriction plate and high speed turbo.
- 308
Flat power band is simply wrong and unrealistic. These are not electric cars.
Heavily tuned cars with restricted HP will always have advantage over normal cars of the same peak power.
This is a very "arcadey" decision from PD. The guy who said this limitation should not exceed maybe 5-10% of the max power is very right. But 50% reduction with full torque and flat full power on all RPM is simply silly.
Heavily tuned cars with restricted HP will always have advantage over normal cars of the same peak power.
This is a very "arcadey" decision from PD. The guy who said this limitation should not exceed maybe 5-10% of the max power is very right. But 50% reduction with full torque and flat full power on all RPM is simply silly.
- 2,045
- TX
- whitemanLS1
winner!
- 8,721
Electric motors are (more-or-less) constant torque - power is still a function of rpm.
Thankfully, PP accounts for the area of the curve, and not just peak power. We all know that two engines with the same peak power / weight ratio installed in the same chassis are not necessarily equal.
We need to see if the reduced torque at higher rpm makes a difference. That F40 test already states what the theory would dictate, but he didn't state just how much power reduction was used in both cases.
- 1,835
- DrKrFfXx_
So the power deliver becomes even when limiting the power?
Will that make a car with the power limited to 50% outputting 300hp, better than a car maxi tuned to 300hp with an uneven power deliver? Wider power band vs narrower power band.
300hp Ford GT will kill like everything on that range, NSX-R included.
- 8,721
Yes and no. On the flat, unequivocally yes. Up hills, the limited car will struggle in the higher rpm range owing to the pitiful torque - or at least it should.
- 1,835
- DrKrFfXx_
Yeah, according to the graphic the torque peak is reached at very low rpm to be actually of any use on actual racing, but still, some tests need to be done.
- 4,877
- CoolColJ, GTP_CoolColJ
Your not forced to use it, up to the host
There are a lot of things to do in PP to fine tune the perfomance. Sacrifice grip for more power and vice versa. It allows for different types of cars to compete with each other.
Every person has a different driving style, you'll find PP will allow for greater choice in the type of cars you can compete with.
It doesn't take into account the other things that help speed like clutches and flyweel though.
Maybe your just too good
Even back in Prologue where PP was a way of life, me in a GTR against an F430
on the straight of Fuji gunning for the finish line were neck to neck all the way through. Pretty amazing considering the different weights, gearing, tyres used and what
You can't account for different styles of cars with PP, no system can, only exactly the same cars for each person will do that.
Some cars just put the power down better or handle better.
In any case some people are faster in certain types of cars regardless of PP.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
wow, trying to evenly match cars needs a science degree. This is getting messy.
- 1,747
Just said that in another thread, this power thing is totally stupid.
How is it a good idea racing ~ 650 hp cars against 'cheated' LMP1 cars which appear to be like 10 seconds faster per lap ???
Btw. you can't restrict PP and weight at the same time.
This ' improvement ' pretty much ruined it for me, unless there's a solution.
They should just take it out, not only it's unrealistic it's simply stupid cause there will always be heroes taking out their fastest possible cars in an online race.
How is it a good idea racing ~ 650 hp cars against 'cheated' LMP1 cars which appear to be like 10 seconds faster per lap ???
Btw. you can't restrict PP and weight at the same time.
This ' improvement ' pretty much ruined it for me, unless there's a solution.
They should just take it out, not only it's unrealistic it's simply stupid cause there will always be heroes taking out their fastest possible cars in an online race.
- 1,835
- DrKrFfXx_
Test bed: Suzuka Circuit, a good mix of uphill, downhill and plain sections throughout the circuit.
Rules: Two laps, one for warm up the tires, one flying lap . No aids but ABS. Grip set to real.
Scenario 1:
Fully stock NSX R on hard sport tires.
Power: 286cv
Weight: 1270Kg
PP Rating: 447
Laptime: 2:23.154
Scenario 2:
Fully tuned (power only) NSX R on hard sport tires with power limited to match the stock car power:
Power: 286cv
Weight: 1270Kg
PP Rating: 452
Laptime: 2:21.896
Scenario 3:
Fully tuned (power only) NSX R on hard sport tires with power limited to match the stock car PP Rating:
Power: 276cv
Weight: 1270Kg
PP Rating: 447
Laptime: 2:22:291
Thoughts?
Rules: Two laps, one for warm up the tires, one flying lap . No aids but ABS. Grip set to real.
Scenario 1:
Fully stock NSX R on hard sport tires.
Power: 286cv
Weight: 1270Kg
PP Rating: 447
Laptime: 2:23.154
Scenario 2:
Fully tuned (power only) NSX R on hard sport tires with power limited to match the stock car power:
Power: 286cv
Weight: 1270Kg
PP Rating: 452
Laptime: 2:21.896
Scenario 3:
Fully tuned (power only) NSX R on hard sport tires with power limited to match the stock car PP Rating:
Power: 276cv
Weight: 1270Kg
PP Rating: 447
Laptime: 2:22:291
Thoughts?
- 4,877
- CoolColJ, GTP_CoolColJ
How is it not realistic?
Real world GT racing and Group A back in the day had similar parity adjustments for all the different cars in a series. Doing too well, well we'll add some ballast, not doing so well? we'll we'll allow you can some extra horsepower and maybe a bigger wing etc
Witness the domination of the R32 GT-R in Group A, which copped it extra weight, and bigger restrictors.
Very much like a manually applied PP system.
You have cars of varying weights and power competing against each other in Group A, from 600hp R32 4WD Skylines, to lowered powered and lighter BMW M3.
A weight and power limit will not give you that.
All these cars have varying power, weight and drivetrains, yet they all compete against each other
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shirakawaa
Premium
- 5,034
- GTP_shirakawaa
The more average power the car puts on the road, the faster it is.
Therefore, with a flat power curve you have to have less max power than the same car with a more "traditional" curve in order to develop the same performance.
- 8,721
Or, to be more accurate, the average power developed in gear - that is, the average power that is being used is dependent on the gear ratios. The next test would be to repeat with the close-ratio box.
You ever take a look at the rules book for a real racing series? There is a reason they are hundreds of pages long, and require very specific knowledge to understand. It is very difficult to make even very similar cars provide a level playing field; much more complicated to make vastly different types of cars competitive.
The fact is, if you really want to see the difference in drivers, you need to force everyone to use identical cars - which sort of defeats the purpose of having everyone tune their own cars. As people are seeing, there really is no way to ensure "fairness" by capping horsepower, or weight, or Performance Points, or what have you - you can make it far more even than without these caps, but there is always wiggle room unless you are using identical cars with identical tunes.
- 1,835
- DrKrFfXx_
But it is like a Full second faster on the same PP rating. 1 full second you could only achieve it with very fine tuning on suspension and gearing, and that stuff, considering both "cars" (the same car diferent power aproaches) share the very same chassis, put the very same grip on the road, the same cornering ability.
The power limiting itself acts like a "cheat" button if you ask me.
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