PP BS, what the hell is this?

[Oyashiro-sama]

Sorry for being bitter but here is my situation: Lately I always finish last place on online races (and far from everyone).

I don't get this! I am a good driver. I play since GT2. I have golded almost every challenge. Got gold at everything in GT5Prologue and in GT5 I golded all except the Vettel Challenge in which I can only get silver on Nur, gold on Monza and bronze on Suzuka.

The other guys have much faster cars, especially at straight lines. Even if I use the same car as them at the maximum PP allowed! What the hell is with the PPs? They don't mean 🤬! The PP should look at how good the car's acceleration and top speed are and the tires. They only care about HP, weight and downforce, what the hell is that!

I know the gears and clutch tunning are very important to make the car faster but I don't want to spend all my money fully tuning a car for a race...

I created a room to use the same car for everyone and no one drops by. 👎

Any advice?

 

[HenGTX]

If you don't want to fully tune your cars, then it's no wonder you finish last.

 

[watermelon punch]

It's a flaw in the game.
Power limiter advantage... Because of it, everyone uses it. Because there's no way to restrict people from using the power limiter, everyone has to use it.

I suggest these for reading:

http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/03/04/279/

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=210382

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=193870

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=190249

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=205910

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=182138

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=196351

You are not alone in your experience.

I wish there was a sticky explaining this here, as it seems this topic crops up regularly.

I too wish there were more one-make racing from the recommended garage.
But if you want that, you need to join something like Fun Racers where it's organized with people on the forum knowing each other.

Otherwise, too, you would need to join organized races where people know each other, and tight restrictions on allowed cars & tuning are imposed & honoured.

Otherwise, the best pub lobby racing you can hope to find is basically shuffle races. I find plenty of those that are clean, and the racing is fair.

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

Thank you, watermelonpunch!👍

Buy lvl3 turbos and lvl3 engine and downgrade the car...

I'll check those rooms. And I'll add you as a friend if you agree.

 

[S2kdrifter]

Just join some shuffle-races, I usually host rooms with shuffle races or the same cars (I don't like driving in the 300sl for instance). Once people have been in your room and enjoyed it it becomes easier, but in the beginning its really hard to get a room full of people who wan't to race clean and in the same car, shuffling gets way more ppl in the room than racing with the same car in my experience.

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

Just join some shuffle-races, I usually host rooms with shuffle races or the same cars (I don't like driving in the 300sl for instance). Once people have been in your room and enjoyed it it becomes easier, but in the beginning its really hard to get a room full of people who wan't to race clean and in the same car, shuffling gets way more ppl in the room than racing with the same car in my experience.

Yeah, I played shuffle a lot. But I got kind of tired of the cars already. If there was an option to randomly choose from a set of faster cars...

 

[ID_racing]

It's a flaw in the game.
Power limiter advantage... Because of it, everyone uses it. Because there's no way to restrict people from using the power limiter, everyone has to use it.

I admire the creation of the game, but seen from a serious online racers point of view, the game has already some huge glitches (- how both light and heavy damage is enforced in racing, just to name some) but this is not merely a programming mistake that can be corrected, the implementation of power limitation has made the game arcade. Im sad to see, that this is the route they have chosen to take.
Polyphony Digital needs to make it possible to verify car set ups in detail in replays. Thats the only way out of this mess.

 

[VBR]

I created a room to use the same car for everyone and no one drops by. 👎

Any advice?

Come race at my Saturday Stock Car Series race event, we always use the same car & it's chosen from the Recommended list, I only accept super clean drivers too, so it's a lot of fun!

I too wish there were more one-make racing from the recommended garage.

As far as I know, I'm the only race event organiser here on GT Planet offering that regularly on a weekly basis, check it out.

 

[Piket]

Polyphony Digital needs to make it possible to verify car set ups in detail in replays. Thats the only way out of this mess.

What do you mean with ''car setups'' exactly? Figures like HP, weight and parts used or full setups with suspension settings etc.? And how will this help?

 

[notveryhappyjac]

weight is the biggest pp hog, leave the cars stock weight so you have high potential top speed. then enjoy blasting past people on the straightaways

 

[ID_racing]

What do you mean with ''car setups'' exactly? Figures like HP, weight and parts used or full setups with suspension settings etc.? And how will this help?

I mean full setups, where every tuning part for each car can be seen in the replay file. Power limiting a fully tuned car has some effects to the cars performance, Ive read about higher torque as one effect that makes a car with similar hp and pp faster in acceleration than a car just tuned to a specific amount of pp and hp.
So to be able to compete in races, as said, you need to fully tune your car, and then power limit it.
That is ridiculous, because the whole idea of the game is to be a realistic driving simulator, and now, its impossible to race spec cars without the doubt, that someone will fully tune and power limit their car. And thereby get a power advantage. There is no way you can detect that today.
That I´d call an arcade game. Not a driving simulator.

If the replay could show all the cars parts, the setup, this couldnt happen. We would know, that every car was in compliance with race specs. A lot of people here likes to drive spec races, actually the most popular online GTP races, are spec races.
I think PD is already diminishing their own realistic driving simulator concept by allowing unrealistic tuning parts. You can tune a FF car way over 280 hp, and still get the power to the ground.

Maybe the core GT5 gamer is only interested in racing fully tuned "cars" on racing softs. But realistic driving games are getting better each year, and GT5 might loose credability amongst racing fans.

 

[ID_racing]

Come race at my Saturday Stock Car Series race event, we always use the same car & it's chosen from the Recommended list, I only accept super clean drivers too, so it's a lot of fun!




As far as I know, I'm the only race event organiser here on GT Planet offering that regularly on a weekly basis, check it out.

Thats good to know! Another one is here, though, racing on Thursdays:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=209554

 

[Piket]

I don't see how this issue affects any serious GT racer. There are two proper ways to race in GT. You either participate in organized championships with specific rules and regulations or you race casually with friends. In any other case you are forced to do what others do to keep it fair, including fully tuning and then power-limiting your cars. No biggie.

After being said so many times it should be clear by now that in order to race properly you must avoid public rooms. Otherwise the whole deal is a compromise.

 

[watermelon punch]

Come race at my Saturday Stock Car Series race event, we always use the same car & it's chosen from the Recommended list, I only accept super clean drivers too, so it's a lot of fun!

As far as I know, I'm the only race event organiser here on GT Planet offering that regularly on a weekly basis, check it out.

Oh, that's good to know!

Fun Racers also does something similar:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=210689

Each Monday, a different person hosts the event. The track is chosen & made public, but the car from the recommended list that will be used is kept as a surprise until you arrive for the race.

I love one-make racing from the recommended list, and I love shuffle races.

I do also like tuning cars, and driving upgraded & modified cars.
But like ID_Racing, I wish the game had some controls to allow you to 100% restrict tuning parts & usage of the power limiter, piece by piece.

But if you race with people from the forum that you know, then there are races that do restrict tuning parts, and you can know the people involved, and be able to predict that they will honour the restrictions.

 

[Greycap]

Power limiting a fully tuned car has some effects to the cars performance, Ive read about higher torque as one effect that makes a car with similar hp and pp faster in acceleration than a car just tuned to a specific amount of pp and hp.

You're missing the fact that if one car produces 200 bhp, 200 Nm and weighs 1000 kg its PP is X while one tuned to 300 bhp, 300 Nm and 1000 kg but restricted to 200 bhp, 300 Nm and 1000 kg won't have the PP figure as the same X. It'll have more as torque counts too and it'll have to be restricted more to get to the same PP level.

That is ridiculous, because the whole idea of the game is to be a realistic driving simulator, and now, its impossible to race spec cars without the doubt, that someone will fully tune and power limit their car. And thereby get a power advantage. There is no way you can detect that today.
That I´d call an arcade game. Not a driving simulator.

That's pretty much exactly what happens in real life race series that require air restrictors, such as the Super GT GT300 class and the WRC. Without the restrictors the engines would make an easy 500 bhp or even more, the restrictor takes away the peak power but retains all the low range torque. WRC cars only produce around 300 bhp but around 600 Nm of torque - isn't that very much alike to what the power limiter in GT5 does?

I think PD is already diminishing their own realistic driving simulator concept by allowing unrealistic tuning parts. You can tune a FF car way over 280 hp, and still get the power to the ground.

Ford produces a Focus with 305 bhp, not to mention the limited edition RS 500 with 350 bhp, for example. I doubt they have serious traction issues even with normal road tyres, not to mention the sticky high performance tyres usually used in GT5.

GT5 does have its issues with realism but the PP system is one of those that actually work. Sure, some cars get an advantage over others but it's still infinitely better than relying on power to weight ratios and applying some fuzzy logic depending on the drivetrain. To put it into perspective, a 550PP Elise 111R is just a tad slower than a 560PP Audi R8 despite having half the power and 400PP MX-5s, RX-7s, FTOs and Integras all play happily together. When a race between a turbo FR and a normally aspirated FF can go either way it can certainly be seen as the result of a working system.

 

[Moot]

Power limiter actually makes your car worse. Depending on you original car.
Power limiter uses more PP than if you did not use it, and had the lower power naturally.
It's about the car and state of tuning parts and method of getting the PP level. Just using power meter to drop the power will give you a disadvantage.

So if you are all using the same cars and have a set PP level, those people using stage 3 turbo and reduced power using the meter will get beaten easily by the person without a turbo or using a stage 1 turbo. As they will have more BHP at PP limit, or more downforce etc.

Weight distribution also uses PP points some people may not have realised, a tiny amount a but 1PP used strategically can make a win.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

I have the same problem I am usually last since I like to ride stock cars with Sports Softs. Everyone and their mother upgrades every car to their max, power-limits it and then adds racing softs.

 

[iamjajo]

I have a ton of cars tuned between 450-550 PP.

I only use the Power limiter for minor tweaks. Such as HP increases as motor breaks in.

I sometimes host open lobbies for production cars with SS tires. These are my favorite online races.

 

[Calamar]

I can't see the point in most of these complaints. IMO there's nothing more addictive in this game than finding the right car for any class or track, fine tuning it, watching other players rides and performance and then keep working on improvements. Winning a race because of a great tune provides a bigger sense of accomplishment, like a sportsman enjoys a victory after hard training. Who can say training isn't fair?


PP system, even not perfect, is awesome as you can trade power/weight/downforce to match different kind of cars instead of sticking to only one. By the way, the abuse of the power limiter, which some people is using in a way it wasn't intended for, is also a flaw in the HP/weight system, so it doesn't make the PP system worst by itself.

 

[Exorcet]

the abuse of the power limiter, which some people is using in a way it wasn't intended for, is also a flaw in the HP/weight system, so it doesn't make the PP system worst by itself.

I doubt the limiter is even abuseable. You will just end up with less hp for a given PP, meaning that a properly geared peaky car will be faster.

I have yet to see evidence of the limiter giving a concrete advantage. It probably has nothing to do with losing online, and it certainly won't help anyone who is lagging many seconds behind the 15th place car.

 

[Melfice7]

I dont care if i lose i always use my cars stock more fun that way

 

[Derrict]

I'm perfectly happy with forever being 3rd.

 

[Sohvakettu]

I think there is an advantage to be gained through using a hp limitter but not necessarily when the hp has been maxed. It depends on the car and it's hp/torque curves how effective limitter tuning can be though and the advantage isn't huge in short distances (can be overcome by the draft).

While the idea of stock racing is good it has a drawback in that the default suspension settings used by PD are horrid and unrealistic. I don't know if normal commuter cars have 0 camber but i'm pretty sure that sports cars don't come with 0 camber and often have quite "agressive" toe settings too unlike the cars in game. For example neither S2000 nor NSX from honda have 0 camber out of factory. (S2000: F 0.5 R 1.5; NSX: F 0.33 R 1.5. In addition to this both have adjustable camber and toe stock.)

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

Now I am even more confused. All I know is that, using the max PP allowed (like +/-500P) in a Rome City Course race (short lap), I can be 10 seconds slower* than the opposition, even if I do a very good lap. So the PP is the stupidest thing ever! In my opinion, two cars driven with the same PP should be 2 to 3 seconds apart in performance at the maximum.

One thing is for sure, I want to waste my money to collect all cars in the game, so I will not tune every car to the max! One thing I know it's very important is to buy is fully customizable gears and suspension, and to add down-force in the GT auto to premium cars. This wastes +/- 100.000Cr. If you add weight reduction, engine and turbo level 3, soft racing tyres and other things, you will spend more than half a million to tune one car.

*Edit: 10 secs in one single lap!

 

[Sander 001]

Now I am even more confused. All I know is that, using the max PP allowed (like +/-500P) in a Rome City Course race (short lap), I can be 10 seconds slower* than the opposition, even if I do a very good lap. So the PP is the stupidest thing ever! In my opinion, two cars driven with the same PP should be 2 to 3 seconds apart in performance at the maximum.

One thing is for sure, I want to waste my money to collect all cars in the game, so I will not tune every car to the max! One thing I know it's very important is to buy is fully customizable gears and suspension, and to add down-force in the GT auto to premium cars. This wastes +/- 100.000Cr. If you add weight reduction, engine and turbo level 3, soft racing tyres and other things, you will spend more than half a million to tune one car.

*Edit: 10 secs in one single lap!

So the other person has taken the time and care to tune his car to perfection while you don't want to "waste" time and credits doing the same and instead want to spread your attention across a thousand other cars and you expect to only be a couple of car lengths behind? LOL

 

[Exorcet]

In my opinion, two cars driven with the same PP should be 2 to 3 seconds apart in performance at the maximum.

They are, easily. The problem here isn't PP.

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

So the other person has taken the time and care to tune his car to perfection while you don't want to "waste" time and credits doing the same and instead want to spread your attention across a thousand other cars and you expect to only be a couple of car lengths behind? LOL

And you are telling me the PP point system is any good?
If I have a car with the same PP point I expect it to be competitive...

But well, I don't care about how you want to race. I just don't know why nobody wants to have races with the same car...

And yes, my time is precious, so the last thing I want to do is to grind for money, or waste time choosing and tuning a car and when I am ready the room host decides to exchange the PP limit. I only play for about 1 or 2 hours and it takes me 1 or 2 hours to get in a fun room! There were days I wasted all my time and have not had a single decent race...

And it seems to me that guys like you don't want to have a fair race, and have a good excuse if you loose (not well tunned, uh?).

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

They are, easily. The problem here isn't PP.

I am not an idiot. Or is there a trick to go faster in straight lines. Maybe I am stupid, uh? I usually apply full throttle and keep the car straight, is it wrong? Oh, and if I can I use the air tunnel of the guy in front of me, and they still get away.

And you probably got silver or better on Nur in the vettel challenge, to be talking like that.

 

[will-i-am]

.

I just don't know why nobody wants to have races with the same car...

Same car races are fun sometimes. Shows whos really fast and not just tuned. Esp. with tire restrictions. I like to race all ways. Even if i lose.

 

[will-i-am]

I am not an idiot. Or is there a trick to go faster in straight lines.

They might be getting off the corner smoother and faster than you and down the straight theyll carry more speed and have more mph by the end of the straight. Trans settings are a big one too!