Presidential Election: 2012

[Danoff]

And it is a system that is getting clogged with too much cholesterol called politics.

This is a symptom of deviating from the constitution. The more power government takes for itself, the more politics clogs the system.

 

[TVC]

Either way they both want war with Iran and that scares me.

What is their motivation?

 

[FoolKiller]

What is their motivation?

Best guess:

Second best guess:

What they claim:

Now take into account any one of those three things and add in that Iran's leader is a bit of an ass and there you have it.

 

[Omnis]

/facepalm

 

[mister dog]

I fear you've both missed the point by a wide margin. Let's revisit it.



The user doesn't think Obama seems like a politician. I point out that he acts exactly like a politician. The two of you make posts along the lines of "well that's what you expect from politicians"...

Given that you're both reinforcing my point, I'm not sure what else needs to be added.

As democracy sadly works like this, it's always the opposition who wants to blame the ruling powers for all things that go wrong; so they can get to the power by manipulating the simple masses come election day. Only to have this little game turned around again for the next 4 years.

Obama did quite good given the circumstances; he is vastly respected in the rest of the world, there were no major international crisises which we can blame the USA for, he tried to turn around a healthcare system which was based on pure capitalism and corporate greed, and the economy in the US actually improved a little (unlike what the republicans state).

Romney on the other hand, has already raised controverse in the world before even coming to power (which i hope will not happen). And him and his running mate (who seems to come straight out of "days of our lives" episode as one of the lead characters), have already build a bad reputation with their (unplanned by their choreographers); idiotic statements and lies.

 

[Famine]

Which all misses the point that you said he sounded straightforward, good-hearted and not politician-like, despite being demonstrably duplicitous and very much a politician...

As democracy sadly works like this, it's always the opposition who wants to blame the ruling powers for all things that go wrong; so they can get to the power by manipulating the simple masses come election day. Only to have this little game turned around again for the next 4 years.

Are "ruling powers" not culpable for all that happens during their rule? I thought they were. If they aren't, who is?

Obama did quite good given the circumstances; he is vastly respected in the rest of the world, there were no major international crisises which we can blame the USA for, he tried to turn around a healthcare system which was based on pure capitalism and corporate greed, and the economy in the US actually improved a little (unlike what the republicans state).

He managed to put the healthcare system further into the hands of insurance companies and it's really quite apparent that the economy in the US didn't improve at all, so I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from.

GDP/capita is still lower now than in 2004 (having increased every year from 2001-2007, fallen in 2008-2009 to 2001 levels [wiping out the increase entirely] and then risen in 2010-2011 - with 2011's growth being the 4th lowest positive growth in 30 years).

At no point since WW2 has mean unemployment period been more than 20 weeks, until 2009 when it hit 25 weeks and then 35 weeks in 2010. The official unemployment rate of 9.9% is twice what it was in 2007 and the highest it's been since WW2. 2011's public debt is $7tn, compared to $4.5tn in 2008 - gross debt stands at $15tn compared to $8tn in 2008.

Incidentally, saying you'd pull troops from Iraq and Afghanistan but keeping them there and adding them to more theatres of war (including drone strikes in "friendly" Pakistan) is controversial. Saying you'll close Guantanamo Bay on the basis that imprisoning US citizens without trial is immoral, but then keeping it open and killing US citizens without trial is controversial.

Romney on the other hand, has already raised controverse in the world before even coming to power (which i hope will not happen). And him and his running mate (who seems to come straight out of "days of our lives" episode as one of the lead characters), have already build a bad reputation with their (unplanned by their choreographers); idiotic statements and lies.

But when Obama made statements in 2008 that were proven to be lies by 2012, it's fine?

 

[sumbrownkid]

Didn't the debt rise from $8 trillion to $15 trillion because Obama put the wars on the receipt, which the Bush administration conveniently didn't?

The economy did not improve, but at least the major bleeding stopped. This recovery is going to take more than two presidents to get out of.

Romney, nothing personal against the guy, but he just seems like an empty suit. That, and it maybe trivial to you guys, but that 47% remark really didn't go so well with me.

 

[Famine]

The bleeding hasn't stopped. You can't spend your way out of debt - and the current administration has tried it three times...

 

[sumbrownkid]

Well the administration is claiming that jobs at least are coming back, but others are saying the rate fell because some people either given up or retired and are out of the workforce.

As for the stimulus, Obama only really did two, and extended the second one.

The first stimulus was $158 billion in tax cuts in early 2008. Bush was given credit for this.

Second was the $797 billion stimulus Obama out into affect in his first year (2009). The third stimulus was just an extension of the second stimulus's tax cuts and unemployment funds.

 

[Danoff]

Didn't the debt rise from $8 trillion to $15 trillion because Obama put the wars on the receipt, which the Bush administration conveniently didn't?

Yea that's the line Obama keeps repeating. The real reason the debt went way up was because of bailouts and the economy tanking. Revenue went way down because income went way down because the economy tanked. Suddenly we were half a trillion in the hole just because people weren't reporting as much income.

This is why it's retarded to think you can tax your way out of it. Economic growth (and spending cuts) are the key to getting us out of debt. Romney is at least talking about addressing those issues (though I'm sure he'll do nothing to help if he gets elected).

The economy did not improve, but at least the major bleeding stopped.

Oh no it hasn't. We have a massive currency crisis brewing right now. The Bush/Obama administration's federal reserve has just kicked the can down the road, and the coming economic crisis (which is extremely obvious) has the potential to be even worse.

You haven't seen anything yet if we continue on the path we're on - which is why both presidential candidates are making overtures toward getting us OFF of the path we're on. Even Obama realizes that the measures he put in place are not going to work out much longer and only put off the inevitable.

Essentially, we tried to re-inflate our bubble economy by borrowing money and dumping it into the economy (badly). That can work for a little while, but in the end it does more damage.

Romney, nothing personal against the guy, but he just seems like an empty suit. That, and it maybe trivial to you guys, but that 47% remark really didn't go so well with me.

The 47% remark is correct. 47% of people who file tax returns are not paying taxes. Roughly half of the voting population has absolutely no skin in the tax game. We get to pretend that they're paying taxes because they file a return, but they aren't - they don't have to pay for the mess the government is making because future taxes to pay off the debt won't hit them just like current taxes don't hit them.

Unfortunately for them, Obama has overseen a nice currency crisis that will eventually hit even the 47% who don't fund the government.

 

[sumbrownkid]

So with all the skeletons out of Obama's closet, who would you guys vote for?

I'm feeling a Romney vibe in this thread, but I bet if Ron Paul were still on it you guys would vote for him?

Shoot I would too. Recently this Obama circus has gotten stale now.

 

[Famine]

I'm not an American, but if I were I wouldn't vote for Romney or Obama even if they came with a free car.

 

[Danoff]

There is no good choice. Romney's rhetoric is better on the economy, but honestly we're not doing well with either one of these guys. I prefer a changing of the guards so that one side's bad ideas can't be propagated for too long... but neither side is particularly appealing.

I won't be voting for either one, but I prefer Romney to win so that we can enjoy a different bad president.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Well I'm forced to vote unfortunately due to my rights.

I'm going to vote Obama again, even though a Romney presidency seems fun to deride also.

Yes, he did not fix the economy, and the moon still hates us, but at least he's got Joe Biden...

I'll take that as a plus over Paul Ryan I guess.

I just wish Bill Clinton can run again.

 

[Danoff]

Well I'm forced to vote unfortunately due to my rights.

Oh I'm voting, just not for either of those guys. You don't have to vote for a bad candidate just because you think they have a chance of winning.

I'm going to vote Obama again, even though a Romney presidency seems fun to deride also.

Better the devil you know huh? I can see that argument, but I don't agree with it.

Yes, he did not fix the economy, and the moon still hates us, but at least he's got Joe Biden...

Biden is even more wrong about these things than Obama.

I'll take that as a plus over Paul Ryan I guess.

He's also terrible.

I just wish Bill Clinton can run again.

...also terrible.

Clinton was a bad president who had the fortune of riding the tech boom while in office (which magically balanced his budget without him having to do anything besides get held back by an angry congress who wouldn't spend).

We haven't had a lot of examples of good politicians recently.

 

[Famine]

Well I'm forced to vote unfortunately due to my rights.

Why does that mean you have to vote for Obama or Romney? Are Gary Johnson, Jill Stein or Virgil Goode not running in Florida? Can you not write-in another candidate? Can you not spoil your ballot?

 

[FoolKiller]

Obama did quite good given the circumstances; he is vastly respected in the rest of the world, there were no major international crisises which we can blame the USA for,

Except for Pakistan asking him to stop flying in drones.

Obama has a techhnological advantage in that he can now do exactly what Bush did without images of troops on the ground hitting the media. It is similar to how Clinton made himself out to be anti-war while doing as much as Bush 1, but from battleships hundreds of miles at sea. Obama has continued and spread the War on Terror into more countries, but has done it remotely via drones.

he tried to turn around a healthcare system which was based on pure capitalism and corporate greed,

How is forcing those who don't want to or can't afford to buy into the system "based on capitalism and corporate greed" to have to participate turning it around? Even Democrats think it is just a health insurance stimulus.

and the economy in the US actually improved a little (unlike what the republicans state).

You do realize that he promised that by putting our currency at even more risk we would hit the unemployment numbers we just now hit three years ago? Natural market recovery could have reached this point by now. It is impossible to say whether Obama or just capitalism itself has put the jobs numbers back.

But economy on a whole is a completely different story. He is claiming to have fixed the house by breaking the windows. I don't see how he can claim to have fixed the economy while having to constantly increase debt spending, raise the debt ceiling, and be in the middle of an idealogical disagreement on how to fix our debt issues. For someone who already fixed the economy he sure is talking a lot about how he can fix it.

So with all the skeletons out of Obama's closet, who would you guys vote for?

I'm feeling a Romney vibe in this thread,

Where are you getting that?

 

[Danoff]

Where are you getting that?

Anti-Obama can easily be misinterpreted as pro-Romney.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Why does that mean you have to vote for Obama or Romney? Are Gary Johnson, Jill Stein or Virgil Goode not running in Florida? Can you not write-in another candidate? Can you not spoil your ballot?

The other guys you mentioned I don't really know about. But I can write in another person. I just don't know who...Lebron? D Rose? Jay Cutler? Samuel L Jackson?

I don't pay much attention to the political process and the news networks because I'm either doing something school related or with a friend trying to forget the day's trials and tribulations.

I guess I'm also growing disillusioned with how our government works. Too much money and pandering, and not enough getting actual work done without any meddling.

 

[Danoff]

Spend a little time on Gary Johnson's website and see what you think. Maybe you hate him, but at least you'll know.

 

[FoolKiller]

Most states make sample ballots available online in advance. Look you're up and see who all is actually listed. Did you know that Roseanne Barr is running?

Anyway, then after you see the list of names give them all a Google. In one night you can read their Web page to see what they claim they believe in and then if they held office you can compare their claims to their actions.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I searched up on your boy Virgil, Famine, and um...Let me just say 🤬 him. He's out of my book, and I'm sure out of many others as well.

 

[Famine]

I'm not entirely sure what he has to do with me, other than the fact I mentioned he's actually on the Presidential Election ballot in many states...

Try Gary Johnson.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Just messing with you bro.

I like Gary Johnson's positions on military (especially on the Iran-Israel question) and the economy, but philosophically, I am a bit non-libertarian in that the government realistically is not going to end the fed or any other government programs so easily like in theory.

But so far, he's in the lead in my personal poll.

 

[Liquid]

Yes, try Gary Johnson. There is always a third way.

 

[Omnis]

Just messing with you bro.

I like Gary Johnson's positions on military (especially on the Iran-Israel question) and the economy, but philosophically, I am a bit non-libertarian in that the government realistically is not going to end the fed or any other government programs so easily like in theory.

But so far, he's in the lead in my personal poll.

So you don't believe in what's right because there are too many people invested in what's wrong?

 

[Joel]

I really like the FairTax he's proposing, it just seems like such a logical way to do things. If I were an American I'd be voting Gary Johnson. He's not quite as hardcore as Ron Paul is (Paul was initially my guy), but his platform is far easier for the average voter to understand. The problem with Ron Paul is he gets a little too rambly and says things that just go right over people's heads. The FairTax is simple, easy to explain, and easy to understand.

 

[sumbrownkid]

So you don't believe in what's right because there are too many people invested in what's wrong?

How'd you get that?

If Libertarians can end the fed and any other government programs that need shedding because it impedes on the individual, then kudos.

But I'm not gonna hold my breath for that to happen. So far, I like Gary because I agree with his foreign policy matters and his taxing views.

Anyway, I should get back to my studies.

 

[FoolKiller]

How'd you get that?

You said you were philosophically non-libertarian because the government won't end the Fed, etc.

It's like saying you don't like cookies because the bakers won't bake cookies.

 

[DK]

Would there ever be a chance that the USA will ever give up the "first-past-the-post" voting system?

Ah, screw it. To tamper with the USA's voting processes would end the Dem/Rep duopoly.