Pride
- Thread starter milefile
- 61 comments
- 1,880 views
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
I don't think anyone thought it was dumb in 1776.
Guys, I really don't see anything wrong with this. Gay people feel like they've been given a raw deal, and they want to change that. If they want to march, fine. If they want to call it a parade, fine. MLK marched numerous times for civil rights causes and I don't see many people saying it was a bad idea.
Really, is there much difference between what gay people are doing now and what black people were doing in the 60s? Are they asking for special treatment or just equal treatment?
M
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
But you've just exposed the fundamental flaw in your own argument.
Gays are not trying to legislate a society that is more beneficial to them as gays. They are (for the most part; we'll disqualify extremists of any stripe) simply trying to legislate a society of equal benefit to them as gays.
Irish people are allowed to marry anyone they want, so long as they're not gay. But gay people aren't allowed to marry Irish people, or anybody else, under any circumstances. Being allowed to marry the mate of your choice simply cannot be construed as an "unfair benefit" for gays. It's merely equalizing the situation.
I think having a Gay Pride day is precisely the same as having a Black Pride or Irish Pride or Honky Pride or Veterans Pride or Thanksgiving Pride day or whatever. It's something about yourself you enjoy celebrating, whether inherited or chosen or earned. Accept one, accept them all. Deny one, deny them all. It really doesn't matter, so long as it's handled consistently and fairly. Right now that is not the case.
Personally, I think that the "homosexuality is not a choice" argument is counterproductive, because it admits defeat from the beginning. It stipulates that being homosexual is being wrong, and it seeks to place "blame" for that outside the individual. The real response should be, "Yeah, I'm gay. So?"
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
It seemed that you were implying that gays were marching in order to secure some unfair advantage over other groups - a kind of "Gay Affirmative Action". I don't think they are. I think they are working to secure an equally beneficial society for themselves. There's a fundamental - and huge - philosophical difference.
Like I said, I don't care which way you decide to play, just apply the rules fairly and consistently. If you don't want Gay Pride parades, then cancel all parades that feature a particular group. Or decide to accept them all. Either way is fair, as long as it is the same for all groups. But you can't say Irish people have a valid excuse to march but homosexuals don't.
For the moment lets leave the issue of Supremacists out of it, because it's a side issue and it's distracting.
- 704
Milefile, I'm beginning to think that this isn't so much about pride anymore. I'm not saying that you are homophobic, but you seem to be angry about the exhibition of homosexual lifestyle. I was wondering if you have kids, as I could better understand this anger if you didn't want to explain what the parade is about to your children. If not, then I just don't get it I suppose.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
///M:
I did not request that milefile change his signature. But in the interest of fairness, since he was asked to change his, I will ask you to change yours. I suggest that the two of you collaborate and come up with a common signature that describes the incident in a way that makes the demonstration valid.
I'm going to raise this question among the staff.
I did not request that milefile change his signature. But in the interest of fairness, since he was asked to change his, I will ask you to change yours. I suggest that the two of you collaborate and come up with a common signature that describes the incident in a way that makes the demonstration valid.
I'm going to raise this question among the staff.
- 2,987
This is completely rediculous. The only reason "it" is the white man's burden is due to what comes to mind when "it" is mentioned. Today how man white supremecist organizations exist. How can the moderating staff allow this site to condone the actions and beliefs of those organizations. It is not like GTP is preventing you from expressing your race, your culture, or yourself as an individual. I dont think anyone has a problem with that. You seem to have a problem with people who cant speak or write with clarity as it clearly offends you, but you propose that we should not have a problem with comments that will offend a majority of individuals who belong to or visit GTP? How can you suggest this. What is the purpose of "it." Dont tell me that you need the security and stuff that comes with an ethnical pride. The security that minorities can find when they are among people who share a same respect for a certain culture or whatever. Every ethnical pride (except for caucasian) is open to anyone who respects it. Caucasians seek to exclude to dominate as we have been for years. So dont tell me that its the white man's burden. Becuase really this is the only burden you or I will ever face in the work place or our life in general. You ever think about the burdens placed upon those of minority ethnic groups. I suppose you would care. Or rather I suppose because you are comfortable almost anywhere you go, the minute someone makes you uncomfortable by expressing that it is OK to be how they are, the pride that you hold so dear demands of you to insist that they be proven wrong, that they not be allowed the security that you are so used to.
- 10,832
No. It is not.
Okay, first of all, what is "it"?
Nobody asked it to. I am white. I am glad I am white. I wouldn't want to be black, ar Asian, or Mexican. I like the way I was born. What is the problem with that?
But it did. I was directed to remove my sig which said "Proud to be white."
I see it all the time. It is also quite popular to rip on America, the most diverse country in the frickin' world.
No. It annoys me.
I will try to tell you when you tell me what "it" is.
I need the security and stuff that comes with an ethnical pride.
You're wrong. This is the most messed up thing in your post. Your saying white culture is closed to non-whites, which is false.
Again, you are wrong. In fact, I see the opposite happening every day.
Wait, what burden? You're loosing me. I have to learn Spanish to be eligible for half of the jobs in my area. That is a burden. My kid has to wait for a vaccination while Mexican illegals just walk in and get it for free, because they are illegal, because they can't work. I work. My taxes pay for their kids shots while mine has to wait because I work to pay for their kids shots. Don't tell me there is no burden.
You mean like come to America and get everything for free? Yeah. I think about it a lot.
That's an intersting, albeit wrong, interpretation.
- 2,987
DAM i was writing a whole long thing and i lost it 
Excuse me for expressing my point of view. You may think of me whatever you like. I am not suggesting that every white person seeks to subvert all other ethnic groups, and I should have been more clear. What i meant was that what other explanation can there be for the resistance that was met by feminists and civil rights workers as they fought for equality and their rights. The people in power grew afraid of loosing this power so they resisted what these groups wanted and clearly deserved. Who were these people in power? WHITE MALES.
Now to recreate my original response.
Yes it is.
"it" is white pride
There is nothing wrong with being glad you are white, just like there is nothing wrong with being glad you are black or chinese. I am glad that i have a diverse ethnic background. I am glad I am caucasian. I am glad my parents birthed me...
There is a difference between proud to be white as you claim you wrote and white pride as i believe you wrote.
Who has a problem with saying what race you are? Who cares is people rip on America?
Oh ok sorry my mistake.
I already told you what it is. But you read me wrong. The ? serves a a break and seperates two difference thoughts. What is the purpose of white pride was the beginning of a new thought.
I gues you didnt understand what i was saying. Why do you need this ethnical pride. Is being a white male (assuming here) not enough. Is being yourself and accepting who you are not enough. Why does being white and celebrating this fact with others comfort you?
Again i guess i should have been more clear. A similar previous discussion jaded me. Anyways I understand that ever group has hardliners and also has those that are open minded. White groups like any other. However, there are many white people sho exclude minorities from there culture and even prevent them from being equals in society. This includes groups like the KKK but also business people and such. You cannot deny that this exists within our society. If it didnt civil rights wouldnt be an issue. What i said before was an extreme to make my point. I apoligize for generalizing it to include all caucasians that was wrong of me and not something i meant to do.
The above statement is explained above in a fast manner. You see the opposite happening everyday? what exclusion or minorities seeking to dominate white people? If you see minority groups trying to dominate white people you are doing nothing but reinforcing my statement that those in power are afraid of loosing that power. I mean sure we will loose some power, but with increased equality dont you think our society will benefit?
The burden i was talking about is the "white man's burden" that you were talking about earlier. I was trying to point out that can you even imagine the burdens carried by less fortunate people? Lets not start talking about illegal immigrants or our health care system. But those same burdens plus more are carried by minorities in your area. I am sure. But can you imagine living with the burden of extreme poverty (yes people of all races are poor but hte poor are a minority group in my eyes). Or how about always getting payed less as a computer engineer becuase you are indian and not white... Or how about blatantly being ignored by a man who you are the boss of in some corporate office, just because you are a woman. Before you start complaining about your burdens consider those of others...
Ok that is an interesting point of view, although close minding, focusing upon a single extreme, and not adressing what you know I was talking about.
Ok if you do not feel that way I apoligize, but people like that do exist. I have heard many a white male talk about it at Santa Clara University (not where i go but i go there enough). Racist tensions do exist and people have verbalized this fear this uncomfortable feeling and they want to disband teh multi cultural center becuase they feel uncomfortable inside the multicultural center becuase it is so different than the rest of campus.
Excuse me for expressing my point of view. You may think of me whatever you like. I am not suggesting that every white person seeks to subvert all other ethnic groups, and I should have been more clear. What i meant was that what other explanation can there be for the resistance that was met by feminists and civil rights workers as they fought for equality and their rights. The people in power grew afraid of loosing this power so they resisted what these groups wanted and clearly deserved. Who were these people in power? WHITE MALES.
Now to recreate my original response.
Yes it is.
"it" is white pride
There is nothing wrong with being glad you are white, just like there is nothing wrong with being glad you are black or chinese. I am glad that i have a diverse ethnic background. I am glad I am caucasian. I am glad my parents birthed me...
There is a difference between proud to be white as you claim you wrote and white pride as i believe you wrote.
Who has a problem with saying what race you are? Who cares is people rip on America?
Oh ok sorry my mistake.
I already told you what it is. But you read me wrong. The ? serves a a break and seperates two difference thoughts. What is the purpose of white pride was the beginning of a new thought.
I gues you didnt understand what i was saying. Why do you need this ethnical pride. Is being a white male (assuming here) not enough. Is being yourself and accepting who you are not enough. Why does being white and celebrating this fact with others comfort you?
Again i guess i should have been more clear. A similar previous discussion jaded me. Anyways I understand that ever group has hardliners and also has those that are open minded. White groups like any other. However, there are many white people sho exclude minorities from there culture and even prevent them from being equals in society. This includes groups like the KKK but also business people and such. You cannot deny that this exists within our society. If it didnt civil rights wouldnt be an issue. What i said before was an extreme to make my point. I apoligize for generalizing it to include all caucasians that was wrong of me and not something i meant to do.
The above statement is explained above in a fast manner. You see the opposite happening everyday? what exclusion or minorities seeking to dominate white people? If you see minority groups trying to dominate white people you are doing nothing but reinforcing my statement that those in power are afraid of loosing that power. I mean sure we will loose some power, but with increased equality dont you think our society will benefit?
The burden i was talking about is the "white man's burden" that you were talking about earlier. I was trying to point out that can you even imagine the burdens carried by less fortunate people? Lets not start talking about illegal immigrants or our health care system. But those same burdens plus more are carried by minorities in your area. I am sure. But can you imagine living with the burden of extreme poverty (yes people of all races are poor but hte poor are a minority group in my eyes). Or how about always getting payed less as a computer engineer becuase you are indian and not white... Or how about blatantly being ignored by a man who you are the boss of in some corporate office, just because you are a woman. Before you start complaining about your burdens consider those of others...
Ok that is an interesting point of view, although close minding, focusing upon a single extreme, and not adressing what you know I was talking about.
Ok if you do not feel that way I apoligize, but people like that do exist. I have heard many a white male talk about it at Santa Clara University (not where i go but i go there enough). Racist tensions do exist and people have verbalized this fear this uncomfortable feeling and they want to disband teh multi cultural center becuase they feel uncomfortable inside the multicultural center becuase it is so different than the rest of campus.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,105
- Mile High City
..Im not usually one to play the victim, but
What the hell is so great about being a white male? What advantages do we have? Were the freaking door mat for the rest of society.
Its harder for us to get into college.
Its harder for us to get a job (dont think it isnt).
Its harder for us to get respect from others in general.
Its harder for us to get scholarships.
(imagine two people (one black, one white) with exactly the same qualifications and tell me its not true)
We are assumed to have extra money.
We have no support group.
We have no community
We have no parades and no legislation that favors us over any other race or gender.
We are the worlds image of nerd.
We are the worlds image of rich and heartless.
We are constantly represented badly on TV (of course, were usually the hero in the shows and movies too). Watch any commercial, though, with a random couple who is supposed to buy product X. Its always the girl who is smarter. If its a guy, hes there for comic relief. If its a white guy, hes there to look either retarded or nerdy.
(I realize that one could make a list like this for other groups, but it wouldnt be as potent)
There is one benefit, however.
People are more likely to trust us. (well not more likely than women)
Being assumed to have extra money can be good too on rare occasions.
Being a white male is the toughest demographic in my mind. Women are promoted over you because it looks good for the company (I can think of examples Ive run in to). If a university major (like engineering) is full of white guys, women are much more heavily recruited and encouraged to join. Women are also rewarded with admiration and respect, even adoration because they were able to do what so many white men could do. In the engineering school I went to there was a Hispanic student group, an African American student group, an Asian student group, and a Female student group no white male group to be found. It would have been scandalous if they had tried to start one.
So far, every job I have applied for had a little check box on the application for African American, or Hispanic or whatever. They would have loved to put me down as black to boost their percentages. They start to get antsy when there are too many white guys around, not enough diversity - better not hire any more qualified white guys.
It would have been so much easier for me to get in to college if I had been anything but white. My sister was just turned down from a college she wanted to go to more than anything. If she had been black, I guarantee she would have gotten in (I looked up the enrollment statistics). The recent supreme court ruling has caused schools to start diving even further into blatantly racist affirmative action policies.
My wife attends a school where she has noticed that there are an unusually large number of black and Hispanic people. More than should be there if it were a random sample of the population. She has also noticed that they perform particularly badly at their classes and are exclusive as a group. Think they got there on their merits? Ever think about the white people who were better qualified that got excluded in favor of those people because of their skin color? Is this the solution to racism?
I was friends with a black guy in my engineering class. He was a lot of fun, and I respected him even more because he was black and doing engineering. RIGHT THERE I was guilty of racism. I should not have given him an ounce more respect because of the fact that he was black, but there it was. Society has conditioned me to believe that black people have more difficulty doing well in life and so Im more proud of them when they succeed than I would be for the same guy if he had my skin color. SAD! It puts black people in a bad light (to assume theyll do badly) and it puts white people in a bad light (to assume theyre advantaged and dont have to work hard to succeed). Lose lose situation.
Take the same guy starting from the same place in life and I guarantee that hell go farther if hes black (assuming he doesnt get brainwashed by the black community into doing nothing).
Think about your own perception of people. I have so much more respect for Colin Powell and Dr. Rice than I should but I do because theyre black. Its so racist and I have succumb to it. I cant think of a single prominent white politician that I have more respect for. How random that the two at the top of my list are black
This is the kind of damage that is done by affirmative action. This is the kind of damage that you do when you say things like white people have it easy, minorities are poor, think about people who are disadvantaged (meaning, not white) Its all racist and its all hurtful to every group you might be talking about.
When you say think about people who are disadvantaged and you imply because they are not white you tell the world that white people dont have to work as hard (be racist against white people) and that black people have to work harder (pity them and assume that theyll do badly). It doesnt work out for either group.
The white mans burden is to play the part of the modern day slave holder to people who make slaves of themselves. The white mans burden is to play the part of the controlling obsessive husband to women who are controlling and obsessive (watch Everybody Loves Raymond for one episode and youll know what I mean good show by the way). The white mans burden is to work harder to get in to college and get a job and be assumed to have gotten because he has the right skin color and a penis. The white mans burden is to be the only group singled out by society to be discriminated against.
Edit: Admit it, you thought it would be ok to make a racist statement against caucasians because everyone else discriminates against us and nobody complains.
Edit #2: Actually men as a group are discriminated against, but white men are the only group discriminated against because of skin color... hmmm... I shouldn't steal my own thunder like that.
What the hell is so great about being a white male? What advantages do we have? Were the freaking door mat for the rest of society.
Its harder for us to get into college.
Its harder for us to get a job (dont think it isnt).
Its harder for us to get respect from others in general.
Its harder for us to get scholarships.
(imagine two people (one black, one white) with exactly the same qualifications and tell me its not true)
We are assumed to have extra money.
We have no support group.
We have no community
We have no parades and no legislation that favors us over any other race or gender.
We are the worlds image of nerd.
We are the worlds image of rich and heartless.
We are constantly represented badly on TV (of course, were usually the hero in the shows and movies too). Watch any commercial, though, with a random couple who is supposed to buy product X. Its always the girl who is smarter. If its a guy, hes there for comic relief. If its a white guy, hes there to look either retarded or nerdy.
(I realize that one could make a list like this for other groups, but it wouldnt be as potent)
There is one benefit, however.
People are more likely to trust us. (well not more likely than women)
Being assumed to have extra money can be good too on rare occasions.
Being a white male is the toughest demographic in my mind. Women are promoted over you because it looks good for the company (I can think of examples Ive run in to). If a university major (like engineering) is full of white guys, women are much more heavily recruited and encouraged to join. Women are also rewarded with admiration and respect, even adoration because they were able to do what so many white men could do. In the engineering school I went to there was a Hispanic student group, an African American student group, an Asian student group, and a Female student group no white male group to be found. It would have been scandalous if they had tried to start one.
So far, every job I have applied for had a little check box on the application for African American, or Hispanic or whatever. They would have loved to put me down as black to boost their percentages. They start to get antsy when there are too many white guys around, not enough diversity - better not hire any more qualified white guys.
It would have been so much easier for me to get in to college if I had been anything but white. My sister was just turned down from a college she wanted to go to more than anything. If she had been black, I guarantee she would have gotten in (I looked up the enrollment statistics). The recent supreme court ruling has caused schools to start diving even further into blatantly racist affirmative action policies.
My wife attends a school where she has noticed that there are an unusually large number of black and Hispanic people. More than should be there if it were a random sample of the population. She has also noticed that they perform particularly badly at their classes and are exclusive as a group. Think they got there on their merits? Ever think about the white people who were better qualified that got excluded in favor of those people because of their skin color? Is this the solution to racism?
I was friends with a black guy in my engineering class. He was a lot of fun, and I respected him even more because he was black and doing engineering. RIGHT THERE I was guilty of racism. I should not have given him an ounce more respect because of the fact that he was black, but there it was. Society has conditioned me to believe that black people have more difficulty doing well in life and so Im more proud of them when they succeed than I would be for the same guy if he had my skin color. SAD! It puts black people in a bad light (to assume theyll do badly) and it puts white people in a bad light (to assume theyre advantaged and dont have to work hard to succeed). Lose lose situation.
Take the same guy starting from the same place in life and I guarantee that hell go farther if hes black (assuming he doesnt get brainwashed by the black community into doing nothing).
Think about your own perception of people. I have so much more respect for Colin Powell and Dr. Rice than I should but I do because theyre black. Its so racist and I have succumb to it. I cant think of a single prominent white politician that I have more respect for. How random that the two at the top of my list are black
This is the kind of damage that is done by affirmative action. This is the kind of damage that you do when you say things like white people have it easy, minorities are poor, think about people who are disadvantaged (meaning, not white) Its all racist and its all hurtful to every group you might be talking about.
When you say think about people who are disadvantaged and you imply because they are not white you tell the world that white people dont have to work as hard (be racist against white people) and that black people have to work harder (pity them and assume that theyll do badly). It doesnt work out for either group.
The white mans burden is to play the part of the modern day slave holder to people who make slaves of themselves. The white mans burden is to play the part of the controlling obsessive husband to women who are controlling and obsessive (watch Everybody Loves Raymond for one episode and youll know what I mean good show by the way). The white mans burden is to work harder to get in to college and get a job and be assumed to have gotten because he has the right skin color and a penis. The white mans burden is to be the only group singled out by society to be discriminated against.
Edit: Admit it, you thought it would be ok to make a racist statement against caucasians because everyone else discriminates against us and nobody complains.
Edit #2: Actually men as a group are discriminated against, but white men are the only group discriminated against because of skin color... hmmm... I shouldn't steal my own thunder like that.
