Project CARS 2 - Racing Sim vs Real.

[NathanBell]

Hi guys, I'm not as active on these forums as I'd like to be. I do dip in and out from time-to-time though!

We recently got sent a comparison piece from Dee Tee. Bloody fantastic. I know I'm biased, but I was blown away with the accuracy of our game in comparison to the real track.

For anybody who didn't see it:

 

[Daz555]

Yes that's, fabulous.

On the flip side why have you abandoned PC2. It's not finished and this game has given so much to gamers but still had so much potential in the tank that could have been unlocked.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Wow, talk about blow your own trumpet even though you've abandoned the game.

 

[Sentry87]

The game was released Sept 2017 and received numerous patches which improved it. I enjoy the game almost everyday and so do many others. Quit with the rhetoric and B.S. .

Think it's wise to chase off developers when they decide to take a break from working and post on a forum? Think that kind of attitude will motivate them to post again in the future.

 

[NathanBell]

Thanks for the welcome...............

As stated above, we didn't abandon the game. We patched it 7 times, with multiple hotfixes in between based on your feedback, the community.

I'm merely highlighting an incredible comparison that struck me, regardless of my involvement. Can't you just take it at face value, acknowledge what it is, or move on?

Also worth noting we didn't produce this at all. An avid fan sent it our way.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

The game was released Sept 2017 and received numerous patches which improved it. I enjoy the game almost everyday and so do many others. Quit with the rhetoric and B.S. .

Think it's wise to chase off developers when they decide to take a break from working and post on a forum? Think that kind of attitude will motivate them to post again in the future.

Yes the game was released on 22/09/17 & roughly a year later we got our last patch & yes numerous bugs were fixed & extra content was delivered.

I also love the game, it's the only game I own/play religiously on my 1X & yes I've done videos showing how good & realistic this game looks.

I bought my 1st wheel to experience the game even more although I'm more than happy to use a controller (which I have also defended against countless people saying it's unplayable).

But.........

There are still some things that could be done to polish the game up a bit (I won't go through everything again), but it could do with a little more support or a few more patches.

So to come on here defending it blindingly calling us out to stop our ******** moaning & show respect to a developer that don't give a **** about it's fans with a (that'll do attitude, it'll be sorted in PC3) is just pure ignorance.

I'll defend the game where it due, but I'll also moan about it aswell, that's my god given right as a customer.

And regarding whether sms or any developer for that matter come here or not doesn't bother me in the slightest, if the product is good enough I'll find out about it via other means & buy it myself without the buttering up salesman tactics.

 

[Sentry87]

Of course it can do with more polishes or fixes, you can say that about almost any game released lately. Especially when it comes to simulations. I'm not asking you to blindly defend but asking you to comprehend the nature of the business and acknowledge what was accomplished with the game.

And why would you not care if developers communicate with the public? Especially since it's a rarity these days and not many developers do it. I don't how many times I've seen people complain Ian Bell doesn't communicate on the forums, only to insta-bash him when he actually does.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Yes I agree that's the nature of things nowadays with the industry, however being a sim means it should have ongoing support more than a stupid fps or arcade driving game.

It depends on how they communicate with us is what matters, listening to feedback, acknowledging issues, doing what they can to fix said issues.

Not pushing it aside to pump sales of the next title or new console.

All we're asking for is a small team to comb over & sort out the remaining issues, (to hold your hands up & say we'll do our best to solve the remaining issues in due time) would do wonders for the player base.

PC2 sold less than PC1 not because it was worse (far from it) but because of the attitude behind it & the player base thought bollocks to this aswell, PC3 will go the same way due to trust issues.

It's like the cocky showboating boxer that hasn't been defeated yet, but it'll happen & when it does it'll hit home hard.

 

[cpcdem]

Yes, it had been fantastic what the guys from SMS were doing, communicating so much (and many of them) with us in several forums. And from one hand it was very bad to see the language with which some people treated them, on the other although they do deserve A LOT of praise for creating a game with so huge potential and immense amounts of features and content, inevitably they will also get a lot of criticism for leaving it unfinished and with so many problems.

Yes, there were 12 months of patches, but the game was extremely buggy on release, of course it needed A LOT of patching in order to get to a release-quality state, And most of those patches introduced several more big problems... Yes, this happens, it's easy to break something in such a complex product, but instead of releasing hotfixes for those new problems soon after, we instead had to wait for the next patch cycle, so the newly introduced bugs would be fixed. And for some of them, we even had to wait for 2 patches, to patch a bug that was introduced by a previous patch. It was taking months...

And there are still so many problems, especially in online we are often simply just not able to do our races because of the problems. So unfortunately I think it is logical for people when talking with devs to first point out the tons of problems that still exist and ask "why don't you finish it?", before talking about anything else. Very unfortunate, but it's logical IMO.

 

[barryf1fan]

@NathanBell thanks for posting that comparison, looks spot on.

Also, BIG THANK YOU for PCars & PCars 2 - love'em. Are they perfect, no. Could PC2 be improved even more? Absolutely. I have yet to play a perfect game, let alone a perfect racing game. However, I get tons of enjoyment out of it and I believe the majority do as well. I understand people still longing for fixes and bugs to be worked through, and in a perfect world, that would be the case. We don't live in a perfect world, video game world is no different.

And to those that don't want a PC3, I get that too. I'll be enjoying PC2 until the next one comes out.

 

[Scaff]

Yes I agree that's the nature of things nowadays with the industry, however being a sim means it should have ongoing support more than a stupid fps or arcade driving game.

Why should it?

It depends on how they communicate with us is what matters, listening to feedback, acknowledging issues, doing what they can to fix said issues.

Which is what a large amount of the fixes in the patches, etc were about.

Not pushing it aside to pump sales of the next title or new console.

So exactly how long is acceptable?

Once you come up with a period of time, ask your own question again, the end result is a demand for never ending support.

All we're asking for is a small team to comb over & sort out the remaining issues, (to hold your hands up & say we'll do our best to solve the remaining issues in due time) would do wonders for the player base.

And you know it would require a small team to sort them out how?

PC2 sold less than PC1 not because it was worse (far from it) but because of the attitude behind it & the player base thought bollocks to this aswell, PC3 will go the same way due to trust issues.

Opinion doesn't equal fact.

It's like the cocky showboating boxer that hasn't been defeated yet, but it'll happen & when it does it'll hit home hard.

So SMS has been defeated and just doesn't know it yet? In which case why the hell would they bother doing what you demand?

 

[Wolfe]

I've started playing almost exclusively online when I play PCARS2 -- in short, when I finally bought PS+ and gave it a try I discovered it is much more of a PC-racing-sim-like experience than your typical console multiplayer racing experience, and I appreciate it for that -- and I have to say...I am still not seeing why the current state of the game is considered unacceptable.

It's fun; it works; hiccups happen but any serious ones are very uncommon. And I'm on a DS4 steering cars with an analog stick, something that is still alleged to be more trouble than it's worth. Sorry, it just doesn't seem like I'm playing the same game.

I had this game at launch, so I know firsthand how much it improved from that rocky beginning. Sure it should have been better in the first place, but it wasn't; now it is. I would not characterize what SMS accomplished in fixing up PCARS2 1.0 as "not giving a **** about their fans" or a "that'll do" attitude, nor leaving things to be sorted in PCARS3.

 

[NathanBell]

I now realise I should have come on here and started the thread "Tell me everything you hate about SMS & Project CARS 2", because clearly sharing a very well put together and complimentary video doesn't fly.

 

[Wolfe]

I now realise I should have come on here and started the thread "Tell me everything you hate about SMS & Project CARS 2", because clearly sharing a very well put together and complimentary video doesn't fly.

I was disappointed it wasn't an invitation to discuss aspects of the physics model versus real life, because I like that topic.

 

[jake2013guy]

I now realise I should have come on here and started the thread "Tell me everything you hate about SMS & Project CARS 2", because clearly sharing a very well put together and complimentary video doesn't fly.

I think it's a hidden rule on all forums. If somebody senior at the company of the game you discuss makes a post or topic, you must complain endlessly.

 

[Cluck]

You know there are two ways to phrase something. There's the polite way which encourages somebody - in this case, the developer - to engage in discourse, then there's the way some people go about it. The next time somebody complains about developers being unwilling to converse more with their customers, I'll point them at this thread …

"Hi, somebody has created something wonderful with these ingredients we made available"
"**** you, you didn't put the cherry on that cake you used to sell, even though you never promised to but we hoped you would"

Is Project CARS 2 perfect? Not for some people, no it isn't and it won't be but being openly hostile to a developer sharing something that they think is cool and they're proud to share, well, I doubt it's going to help matters.

 

[PzR Slim]

I now realise I should have come on here and started the thread "Tell me everything you hate about SMS & Project CARS 2", because clearly sharing a very well put together and complimentary video doesn't fly.

Not everyone thinks the same as the naysayers. Unfortunately they just shout quicker and louder. So thanks for sharing the vid and thanks for making the game. Personally I think it's fantastic and I find it very easy to overlook the small issues.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Why should it?

Ok, personal opinion here. But being a sim I believe requires a little more care to achieve the best possible experience than the throw together arcade game what with it being such a niche market.

Which is what a large amount of the fixes in the patches, etc were about.

At the beginning yes, I agree. However at the end when people realised that the things that they were asking for to be fixed were not going to be?

And you know it would require a small team to sort them out how?

I don't know how small or big a team it would require.
Obviously a larger portion of resources could achieve this quicker, but I understand that other resources are needed for future works.
Hence I just used the term small.

Opinion doesn't equal fact.

True, can't disagree with that.

So SMS has been defeated and just doesn't know it yet? In which case why the hell would they bother doing what you demand?

No, I'm just saying don't get cocky with a product just because it's the best at the moment (my opinion) Apple springs to mind, Microsoft with the Xbox one launch &
I haven't demanded anything, I've moaned about it

So exactly how long is acceptable?

Once you come up with a period of time, ask your own question again, the end result is a demand for never ending support.

How long is a piece of string? I don't know, at least a little closer to the next installment maybe?

I'm not asking for never ending support as I'm aware that would possibly have to go down the £IRacing£ route, see above answer.

 

[Scaff]

I now realise I should have come on here and started the thread "Tell me everything you hate about SMS & Project CARS 2", because clearly sharing a very well put together and complimentary video doesn't fly.

It shouldn't be, but please be assured that plenty of us here do appreciated the post and thread for what it is.

Ok, personal opinion here. But being a sim I believe requires a little more care to achieve the best possible experience than the throw together arcade game what with it being such a niche market.

I'm quite sure that players of those genres would disagree with you just as strongly.

At the beginning yes, I agree. However at the end?

Beginning middle and end. I followed every one of the updates as they happened, every single one of them resolved issues the community brought to light.

I don't know how small or big a team it would require.
Obviously a larger portion of resources could achieve this quicker, but I understand that other resources are needed for future works.
Hence I just used the term small.

And if a small team isn't able to do it then its a waste of time and resource, if its a larger team it hits the commercial viability of the company and in the real world that's a threat to its existence.

No, I'm just saying don't get cocky with a product just because it's the best at the moment (my opinion) Apple springs to mind, Microsoft with the Xbox one launch.

Nothing about the OP was cocky about the product, or should the only posts made to the community by the team be all sackcloth and ashes?

I haven't demanded anything, I've moaned about it

And is this honestly the right thread to do that in?

I'm not asking for never ending support as I'm aware that would possibly have to go down the £IRacing£ route, see above answer.

Yet that is what you are asking for, because any extended support period turns into exactly that, any period of time you pick will not fix everything, and as such it becomes a never ending development grind that will never fully fix the ageing product and impacts on the development of the new product.

Its a harsh commercial reality that unless you turn a product into software as a service (the likely success of which for a racing title on console is unknown), you have to look at a new release every two years or so, and that puts a limit on the time you can continue to support a product.

However this really have dragged this thread off topic far enough, and I would suggest that any further complaints about SMS's length of support be raised in more appropriate threads.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

@Scaff, fair enough.

@NathanBell, I apologise for the hostile response.

Regarding the OP.

I do think this game looks fantastic (always have, especially in 4k hdr) & I think the physics are fantastic (player/track/weather system integration) it's seriously alot of fun.

 

[barryf1fan]

And not to go too far off topic... but

@NathanBell
Being on the PS4 (don't have a good enought PC) and having the ability to run the Rolex 24 hours of Daytona, complete with Day-Night-Day transitions (and multiple weather to boot) and 3 classes on track, all the while taking my Ford GT GTLM to a hard fought 3rd place in class - all in 2 hours. Well, you just don't get that kind of immersion with too many other games (well, none that I can think of). Thank you again for providing this experience!

What a good time. It's why we game. 2:tup: SMS!!

 

[NathanBell]

@NathanBell, I apologise for the hostile response.

You're called Mr Grumpy. Never break character. Never apologise. Never.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

You're called Mr Grumpy. Never break character. Never apologise. Never.

Believe it or not (I know it don't sound like it atm) but I do think it's brilliant (90% of the time) & it's got me into sim racing.
I bought a 1X & a 4k tv just to enjoy it, should've bought a VR Gaming rig though to really appreciate it.

 

[barryf1fan]

And just to throw one more kernel out there...

I had the opportunity to play PCars 2 on the HTC Vive (not mine obviously) and HOLY ****!! That is just plain awesome. If you have the chance to try PCars 2 in VR, do it. I hated going back to my PS4 (looking under the couch cushions for more change to put in my PC/Vive fund...)

 

[PzR Slim]

And just to throw one more kernel out there...

I had the opportunity to play PCars 2 on the HTC Vive (not mine obviously) and HOLY ****!! That is just plain awesome. If you have the chance to try PCars 2 in VR, do it. I hated going back to my PS4 (looking under the couch cushions for more change to put in my PC/Vive fund...)

I play PCars 2 on my Vive Pro all the time and I totally agree with you. Probably the best experience I have had in sim racing.

 

[cpcdem]

Believe it or not (I know it don't sound like it atm) but I do think it's brilliant (90% of the time) & it's got me into sim racing, I bought a 1X & a 4k tv just to enjoy it.

Absolutely agreed, it's brilliant, fantastic, phenomenally rewarding experience in 90% of the time! Otherwise I wouldn't had played it for more than 2000 hours already . I could had payed for it 10 times its price and still feeling like I robbed SMS. But that remaining very bad 10% out of 2000 is also a lot of hours of frustration...

 

[Scaff]

Here's my addition to the theme.

Aston Martin Vantage GT3 at Oulton Park, PC2 head to head with Reality.

 

[cjr3559]

I see both sides here. Even though I bought PC2 over a year ago, I only started seriously playing in the last 6 weeks so I never got to experience the concerns about the game’s state at release.

But I have a very strong feeling very few developers including SMS don’t feel immense pressure meeting deadlines up to a launch date. And as complex as PC2 is, there’s no surprise issues would need patched. And of course they want you to buy the game.

Now from a consumers POV, it’s a little disappointing to pay full price for something at launch that needs fixes especially when you can eventually buy it for half price a year later in it’s final condition. So if I wait to buy the full game at 50% off and also get the DLC, I’m basically paying the launch price and getting more content with a much improved product. I guess this is the life of a modern gamer, but what can you do. I’m not saying anything new here.

So to me (the user), the true success of a game is determined by player support well after launch with the final build.

As far as the PC2 compared to real life, well those two examples are proof this game is the real deal. Confirm me converted.

 

[cpcdem]

Personally I got it on release day, had preordered it. I never regretted this one bit, despite the bugs, the game was amazing, way better than anything else especially at this time and it was fine to me beta testing it and reporting problems while enjoying it so much and the bugs I was sure would be fixed soon.

But the problem is that for at least the way I play the game, it actually started getting worse from there. In the first major patch, we got that insane race director, hanging insane (5, 10 and more second) penalties for going slightly off track and even losing time, we had to spend so much energy in the forum, just to persuade the devs to tone it down a bit (it's still a big mess, but not as bad now). Later we got more problems, UI related, then the big multiplayer problems started, the huge disconnections, because in their attempt to fix the LiveTrack issues online, they made the game transmit a lot more data, and (still) now we have all those stability problems. Then another patch made a lot of the cars (like the GT3s) in this game almost undriveable, if you did not have a high end CPU in PC (I had a 4660) and were not using -pthreads 4 in the command line. Again, lots of energy spent in the forum to convince them that this is a real problem, while also having other people trolling around its our imagination etc etc. Eventually it was fixed in the next patch, some months later again...And so many other issues (old or new ones) that were not fixed at all at the end...

And in my opinion it is not nice that we did never hear an official announcement that the game is done, only mods in the official form told us about it and in the beginning at least we were not sure if we should believe it or not. The very few comments we were lately seeing from devs, were in threads where we were complaining about issues, and their comments were along the lines of "I was quite amused reading this" etc. In that context, I hope you understand that when anybody from the dev team suddenly does post, only to demonstarte how great PCARS2 is (which in a very large part it really is), it is logical that it is not taken too well by some. Please take this as constructive criticism, at least this is what it was meant to be.

 

[torsteinvh]

I preordered PC2 for the PS4 and later rebought the game when I switched to PC. Worth every penny in my opinion.

Being as old as I am (pushing 50) I remember the good old days before the internet when games just had to work out of the box. Nowadays I fully expect a few patches before any game is really enjoyable. Having a bit of experience as a software tester I know it is impossible to find all the bugs during testing. No matter how good the prerelease testing is, there just isn’t any way to simulate hundreds of thousands of players exploring every tiny aspect of the game. And I think the games actually end up better in the end after a few iterations of user feedback and fixes.

PC2 I didn’t really start playing ‘for real’ until after patch 4. The time before that I spent learing as many tracks as possible, experiment with settings and so on. I mainly play against the AI, so I fully respect that others may have a different experience than me, but for me the game is very enjoyable in it’s current state.

Could a few things have been better? Of course. But nowadays few things are perfect. And if I look at money spent per hour of enjoyment, the return of investment for computer games is actually pretty good