Project CARS 2 - Racing Sim vs Real.

[pyrates]

Unfortunately, I won't be continuing this conversation with you anymore. If you can't see his criticisms of SMS in his original post, then that is not my burden to prove.

No need to be cocky just because you can't differentiate an argument. The point is he did criticize the online part quite heavily and admittedly provocatively and SMS' approach to it. You took it as an criticism of the whole game which it simply wasn't. Not in the original comment anyway.

The online part does have its issues which can be lived with mostly. However, when considering competitive online racing the game has too many issues to make it a reliable platform. I don't often agree with @mattikake but he is right in that regard.

 

[cpcdem]

I agree, it's mostly competitive online which has the most problems but there are plenty problems for regular online play as well. The several host migration problems affect (and often ruin) mainly regular online lobbies, the very problematic penalty system affects both, disconnections affect both, problems with forced default setups, with assists turning off in online by themselves and other similar problems affect both. Talking about racing in PC platform that I am using.

On the other hand, I completely agree that the game is a masterpiece otherwise, with insane amount of content and features and offers dozens of times more than what it actually costs.

 

[mattikake]

Yes I was mostly referring to competitive online racing, not just public lobbies. When you do competitive league racing you will spend a lot of time practicing and perfecting a setup. But often (and nowhere near as often before the latest patch) there can be performance issues with a full league lobby on ps4. This appears to be random, but the point is, when you practice and practice think you're ready but then the car handles slightly differently, it destroys then competitive edge in an instant. Even if that slight difference only costs you a few tenths a lap, that is enough to move you from the front to mid-pack.

It may even only affect you once or twice in a 12 race season. But that can be the deciding factor in winning a championship.

So hours of practice and perfecting setups seems wholly pointless which then means it's just a bit of fun than being seriously competitive. You have to race not caring too much about winning. The point of a race is to win it.

These performance randomization "features" are the sole reason I quit the gavra league, which is highly competitive and a place to find some actual aliens on ps4. You can't compete if it's not fair though.

 

[Mr_Mrau]

Just wanted to say that despite the rough bits, I've enjoyed PC2 immensely. Even if it's fighting in the Ginetta Juniors, there is a level of immersion and learning which I really appreciate. The online system could be better but I think almost all the criticisms come from a place of liking the experience so much that you want it to be perfect. I fell in love with Oulton Park circuit and now I watch the British GT championship there - in fact I've learned so much about the UK's racetracks because of PC2 I'm hugely grateful to the community for making all of it possible.

So thank you!

 

[coltsjugg]

A tad off topic, but I love how there just happened to be an advert for gt sports “new update” in the middle of this before I logged in.

 

[fernandito]

Yes I was mostly referring to competitive online racing, not just public lobbies. When you do competitive league racing you will spend a lot of time practicing and perfecting a setup. But often (and nowhere near as often before the latest patch) there can be performance issues with a full league lobby on ps4. This appears to be random, but the point is, when you practice and practice think you're ready but then the car handles slightly differently, it destroys then competitive edge in an instant. Even if that slight difference only costs you a few tenths a lap, that is enough to move you from the front to mid-pack.

It may even only affect you once or twice in a 12 race season. But that can be the deciding factor in winning a championship.

So hours of practice and perfecting setups seems wholly pointless which then means it's just a bit of fun than being seriously competitive. You have to race not caring too much about winning. The point of a race is to win it.

These performance randomization "features" are the sole reason I quit the gavra league, which is highly competitive and a place to find some actual aliens on ps4. You can't compete if it's not fair though.

Are you sure these issues regarding a very noticeable change in behaviour when the race starts have nothing to do with, first slip and backstream caused by the cars in front and behind you, and second with the fact (so many forget about too) that starting with the tyres warmed up and on "optimum" pressure doesn't mean you can push the car that soon, too?

I mean, the odd issue with the absolute change in behaviour in race start was eventually fixed in the last patch, at least on PC. Also, and given you didn't bother answering my question here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-overtakes-thread.386053/

where I can see you playing a previous version of pc2, then this irremediably leads me to believe that first you might be playing a pirated version, and second that you obviously may not know very well how the game is working after last update and which things were actually fixed in it.

 

[mattikake]

Tbh I didn't understand your question. 1bar?

Dunno how you pirate a version on ps4? I thought that was now impossible.

Tbf pc2 is a lot better on this final patch and problems are a lot less frequent. I'm considering rejoining the gavra leagues as a result. If they'll have me!

The different handling car is hard to explain. It's not to do with different tyre temps or aero wash. In a glsr league race the other day someone had a car that behaved completely different in race to quali. It was as if his tyres were overheating but on the hud they were green. No-one could understand it. It ruined his race.

Don't compare the pc version to the ps4. They are very different.

 

[Brzlav]

Here's my addition to the theme.

Aston Martin Vantage GT3 at Oulton Park, PC2 head to head with Reality.

Maybe it's just me but I always feel like PC2 is running in slow motion. There's no sensation of speed for me and it looks like this in the quoted comparison video as well.
I have fiddled a lot with fov settings which didn't help. I'm on PS4 by the way, never had this problem with AC on PS4. Am I just weird or is there a way to help me?

I tried very hard to love this game as, having no current gaming PC (it wouldn't be worth the money with my gaming time heavily restricted by work and having little children), I find it great that there is a very PC sim like and content-heavy game on the console. But somehow, it never happened, this slo-mo sensation being a big part of that, I guess.

The thread starting video looks great, but it is 3rd person. Is it possible to get a 1st person comparison to the same level?

 

[Scaff]

Maybe it's just me but I always feel like PC2 is running in slow motion. There's no sensation of speed for me and it looks like this in the quoted comparison video as well.
I have fiddled a lot with fov settings which didn't help. I'm on PS4 by the way, never had this problem with AC on PS4. Am I just weird or is there a way to help me?

I tried very hard to love this game as, having no current gaming PC (it wouldn't be worth the money with my gaming time heavily restricted by work and having little children), I find it great that there is a very PC sim like and content-heavy game on the console. But somehow, it never happened, this slo-mo sensation being a big part of that, I guess.

The thread starting video looks great, but it is 3rd person. Is it possible to get a 1st person comparison to the same level?

Sense of speed will always be a tricky one, as it depends on not just the FOV being used when recording the video (which for me is 1:1 with reality), but also how that FOV then stacks up with the person watching it. It would need to be 1:1 with reality in both cases for it to look 'right'.

Right is also a tricky thing, as when you are actually out on most tracks in reality, your speed almost always seems slower than it is. That's mainly down to the run-off areas, etc, as the less you have trackside the more removed a sense of speed will always be, which is why 70mph on an empty motorway will always seem slower than 60mph down a narrow, hedge-lined B-road.

Basically if you want a faster sense of speed then go for a wider FOV that is 1:1 and switch on options like motion blur.

 

[Brzlav]

Sense of speed will always be a tricky one, as it depends on not just the FOV being used when recording the video (which for me is 1:1 with reality), but also how that FOV then stacks up with the person watching it. It would need to be 1:1 with reality in both cases for it to look 'right'.

Right is also a tricky thing, as when you are actually out on most tracks in reality, your speed almost always seems slower than it is. That's mainly down to the run-off areas, etc, as the less you have trackside the more removed a sense of speed will always be, which is why 70mph on an empty motorway will always seem slower than 60mph down a narrow, hedge-lined B-road.

Basically if you want a faster sense of speed then go for a wider FOV that is 1:1 and switch on options like motion blur.

You are right about the sensation being dependent on the surroundings.

I have to say, I had this impression that I am to slow and everything feels "to short" on tracks that I haven't seen in RL. But then I experienced the same on the Nordschleife which I do know from firsthand experience. And I thought "that doesn't look at all like the real thing".

It's unfortunate that I never could try the game in VR, because in GT Sport (the game has other flaws obviously), I found the perception of the location alright in pancake mode and I was blown away by the experience in VR.

 

[Scaff]

You are right about the sensation being dependent on the surroundings.

I have to say, I had this impression that I am to slow and everything feels "to short" on tracks that I haven't seen in RL. But then I experienced the same on the Nordschleife which I do know from firsthand experience. And I thought "that doesn't look at all like the real thing".

I've personally no issue with the laser-scanned tracks in PC2 in that regard, including the ones I've driven.

It's unfortunate that I never could try the game in VR, because in GT Sport (the game has other flaws obviously), I found the perception of the location alright in pancake mode and I was blown away by the experience in VR.

For me, the default and fixed FOV in GTS is far, far too wide (at around 75 degrees) and flattens out elevation and opens up corners far too much, driving the same tracks in VR totally changes them in GTS. Without the obvious immersion side of VR, I can get an almost identical feel in terms of corners, elevation etc. in both PC2 and AC.

 

[Brzlav]

For me, the default and fixed FOV in GTS is far, far too wide (at around 75 degrees) and flattens out elevation and opens up corners far too much, driving the same tracks in VR totally changes them in GTS. Without the obvious immersion side of VR, I can get an almost identical feel in terms of corners, elevation etc. in both PC2 and AC.

I'm not sure if the FOV is the same over different cars in GTS, my feeling is that it's not.
However, concerning the perception of speed and the location as a whole, I found GTS and AC closer together than AC and PC2. Maybe I'll reinstall PC2 the next days and compare for myself with the same car/track combo and the FOV setting equal for AC and PC2.

BTW., I am talking about the perception of the location which has not that much to do with whether a track is laser scanned or not. It's more about the link between the objective data and the player experiencing it.

 

[Scaff]

I'm not sure if the FOV is the same over different cars in GTS, my feeling is that it's not.
However, concerning the perception of speed and the location as a whole, I found GTS and AC closer together than AC and PC2. Maybe I'll reinstall PC2 the next days and compare for myself with the same car/track combo and the FOV setting equal for AC and PC2.

As a default, it may well, be. I'm referring to when the FOV is set correctly on both AC and PC2.

BTW., I am talking about the perception of the location which has not that much to do with whether a track is laser scanned or not. It's more about the link between the objective data and the player experiencing it.

It can have everything to do with if the track has been scanned, as if its not it could be out by quite a large degree, resulting in the objective data being quite wrong. If that's the case then no matter what you set the FOV to, or even if you use VR it will still be wrong.

A good example of this comes from the original Dirt Rally and SLRE, with the Sweet Lamb stage, SLRE drone scanned it (laser scanning a dirt track doesn't work well), while DR recreated a 'version' of it. The differences between the two are notable, with the DR version throwing in some corners that don't exist in the real stage.

 

[rj5992]

Maybe it's just me but I always feel like PC2 is running in slow motion. There's no sensation of speed for me and it looks like this in the quoted comparison video as well.

One thing you might be forgetting is that the real life footage in Scaffs comparison video is most likely shot on a GoPro that has a FOV of 130°. If you set PC2 to this (I think the maximum is 120°?) you'll get the same sense of speed, but it won't be realistic at all.

 

[Brzlav]

It can have everything to do with if the track has been scanned

Of course it can, I just wanted to point out that if one game uses laser scanned data and the other one does not, it doesn't automatically mean that the game with the more accurate raw data is more realistic in the end. More often than not it will, but it's not a given.

 

[Scaff]

Of course it can, I just wanted to point out that if one game uses laser scanned data and the other one does not, it doesn't automatically mean that the game with the more accurate raw data is more realistic in the end. More often than not it will, but it's not a given.

I agree its not always the case, but in the vast, vast majority of cases it is.

Nor do two titles with both tracks laser scanned mean that they will be recreated well, one example is the lack of surface detail on the laser scanned tracks on GTS coming through FFB.

 

[rj5992]

how that FOV then stacks up with the person watching it.

For a bit of fun I decided to try that out with my favourite FOV calculator. Turns out me watching through my phone at a normal viewing distance (30cm/12") is a real-life FOV of 25°!

Maybe I'll reinstall PC2 the next days and compare for myself with the same car/track combo and the FOV setting equal for AC and PC2.

If you decide to do this then remember that PC2 uses the horizontal FOV value and AC uses the vertical. Wasn't sure if you were aware of this, but it may also account for your feeling of there being a difference between the two games' sense of speed.

 

[kikie]

I think my trust in SMS is getting restored. Waiting for pCars 3 to be released.

 

[Scaff]

For a bit of fun I decided to try that out with my favourite FOV calculator. Turns out me watching through my phone at a normal viewing distance (30cm/12") is a real-life FOV of 25°!

View attachment 819478



If you decide to do this then remember that PC2 uses the horizontal FOV value and AC uses the vertical. Wasn't sure if you were aware of this, but it may also account for your feeling of there being a difference between the two games' sense of speed.

You need to watch my on-boards from around 13" in that case for my FOV of 53h/32v

 

[Brzlav]

Well, I am hooked enough so that I will give PC2 a third chance...

I am not entirely convinced though that fov angles being "realistic" is the final answer to my question. After all, the perception of speed is bound to a lot more than just what we see and with the sensory experience being limited in a video game (as the name "video" suggests ), just mimicing the exact viewing experience from the real world might not get the result that a game feels "realistic".

A few weeks ago I spend some time with a 225hp car on a race track. I don't have it on camera, but I am sure it would feel slow just looking at what a camera would have recorded. But it sure didn't feel that way driving the car around the corners.
A game, even a sim game needs to rely on more than just accurate raw data to create a believable experience and maybe PC2 doesn't do that for me while it does it for others. It's no coincidence that many of a car's properties are developed using subjective ratings of different people (and that's coming from a simulation guy...).

 

[Jtheripper]

Well, I am hooked enough so that I will give PC2 a third chance...

I am not entirely convinced though that fov angles being "realistic" is the final answer to my question. After all, the perception of speed is bound to a lot more than just what we see and with the sensory experience being limited in a video game (as the name "video" suggests ), just mimicing the exact viewing experience from the real world might not get the result that a game feels "realistic".

A few weeks ago I spend some time with a 225hp car on a race track. I don't have it on camera, but I am sure it would feel slow just looking at what a camera would have recorded. But it sure didn't feel that way driving the car around the corners.
A game, even a sim game needs to rely on more than just accurate raw data to create a believable experience and maybe PC2 doesn't do that for me while it does it for others. It's no coincidence that many of a car's properties are developed using subjective ratings of different people (and that's coming from a simulation guy...).

I think maybe also the fact that when it's real you have adrenaline pumping more from the real threat of pushing it near the edge and risk losing it. And of course the physical feel in your seat.
Yeah for the one in the car controlling it compared to looking at it from afar will seem slower too. You guys make me giggle with your angles. You're making it so complicated to enjoy haha. Just kidding.
Shift game had an exciting feel in cockpit with its bouncyness and lots of perspective motion and shaking. It was immersive even if exagerated.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Yeah I'm one of those weirdos that just sits down and drives. If it looks distorted and... umm... "fish-eye-y" I try to dial that out but that's about it. I might also try to expand the view a little bit to be able to see the mirrors better. I also don't think I've ever had a game that I felt didn't accurately convey how fast I was going, although some do make the ride a little rougher and/or more exciting than others.

 

[rj5992]

I made my own video comparison of a Porsche GT3 RS at the Nordschleife and have just got permission from the owner of the source footage to make it public:



All I knew was that the the original video was recorded in October 2018 and that the lap started at 21 minutes past the hour.

So there was a lot of changing days, loading, waiting 21 minutes, checking the position of the sun in the sky, quitting, changing... you get the picture.

I hope you like it, I'm astounded at the similarities; not only in graphics and the environment but also how similar mine and //.'s wheel movements are.

Also, people who complain about Project Cars 2 being too grippy should try matching a quick drivers lap in a GT3 RS on Soft road tyres, in October, at Dusk, when the tyres are stone cold. I actually had to reduce the Air Intake and slacken the diff off because I just wasn't rolling on the throttle carefully enough.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

I made my own video comparison of a Porsche GT3 RS at the Nordschleife and have just got permission from the owner of the source footage to make it public:



All I knew was that the the original video was recorded in October 2018 and that the lap started at 21 minutes past the hour.

So there was a lot of changing days, loading, waiting 21 minutes, checking the position of the sun in the sky, quitting, changing... you get the picture.

I hope you like it, I'm astounded at the similarities; not only in graphics and the environment but also how similar mine and //.'s wheel movements are.

Also, people who complain about Project Cars 2 being too grippy should try matching a quick drivers lap in a GT3 RS on Soft road tyres, in October, at Dusk, when the tyres are stone cold. I actually had to reduce the Air Intake and slacken the diff off because I just wasn't rolling on the throttle carefully enough.

That was brilliant to watch, fantastic drive keeping with the real life driver
May I suggest changing the weather to hazy & try another run as PC2 looked too clean & clear compared to the real life video.
Unless you already tried it?

 

[speedy10]

I made my own video comparison of a Porsche GT3 RS at the Nordschleife and have just got permission from the owner of the source footage to make it public:



All I knew was that the the original video was recorded in October 2018 and that the lap started at 21 minutes past the hour.

So there was a lot of changing days, loading, waiting 21 minutes, checking the position of the sun in the sky, quitting, changing... you get the picture.

I hope you like it, I'm astounded at the similarities; not only in graphics and the environment but also how similar mine and //.'s wheel movements are.

Also, people who complain about Project Cars 2 being too grippy should try matching a quick drivers lap in a GT3 RS on Soft road tyres, in October, at Dusk, when the tyres are stone cold. I actually had to reduce the Air Intake and slacken the diff off because I just wasn't rolling on the throttle carefully enough.

Nice work!! Are you running the game on a std ps4?

 

[rj5992]

That was brilliant to watch, fantastic drive keeping with the real life driver
May I suggest changing the weather to hazy & try another run as PC2 looked too clean & clear compared to the real life video.
Unless you already tried it?

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

I know exactly what you're talking about. It's not the weather that's causing the difference unfortunately, it's the fact that the original video is pretty over-exposed. A lot of the black cockpit details on the right hand side are a dark to mid grey tone in the original. I did have exposure compensation cranked all the way up in game, but it's still not enough. Another thing that factors into the haziness is the colour temperature. I'm not sure if PC2 adjusts the colour temperature depending on the time of year, but the original video definitely has a lot more blue in it than in PC2. In fact, that's given me an idea that I could possibly use ShareFactory's colouriser filter to adjust it slightly. Although I don't really want to do anything to adjust the image in post production at all.

Of course, we're matching a video filmed by a tiny action camera, so I wouldn't say PC2 is unrealistic in that sense. It's trying to emulate what your eyes would see, not what an action camera would.

If anyone can find an on-board track video filmed with a top quality camera that's been professionally colourised then I'll make another video.

Nice work!! Are you running the game on a std ps4?

Thanks very much! Nah, I recently upgraded to a PS4 Pro. Really happy that I did, not only is the image a lot better quality but I can also capture the video in 1080p instead of 720p.

 

[Daz555]

These performance randomization "features" are the sole reason I quit the gavra league, which is highly competitive and a plac to find some actual aliens on ps4. You can't compete if it's not fair though.

The issues, as random as they can be, are experienced by all racers though so there is fairness - irritating but fair if you get my drift.

We lose drivers to disconnects in our league races for example. We refer to them as a blown motor - annoying as hell for a driver who has been practicing all weekend, but that's racing.

I'm not excusing SMS for these issues of course - they should have been addressed in this game before it was abandoned and I really hope their next game is far more solid from an online perspective.