Project CARS - Logitech Wheels NOT Supported on PS4

  • Thread starter biffdiver
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VBR
Obviously to make more money out of them, while deflecting the animosity caused by it elsewhere.

However, there's no evidence either way as to whether there was such a deal or not.
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I don't believe one can make a business case for Sony making more money by granting TM an exclusive. Sony's primary interest is in moving consoles. The best way to move consoles is to provide legacy support to ease the transition from one generation to the next. An exclusivity arrangement with TM is in TM's best interest, not Sony's, because you're throwing up a huge barrier to entry into next-gen by giving that arrangement. I believe TM's revenue is in the $20million range so paying an exclusivity fee to Sony would amount to only a couple million at best, which Sony would likely lose dozens of times over by not allowing Logitech and Fanatec owners an easy transition to the next console.

The most likely explaination is that Sony came up with the security chip idea and assumed that wheel makers would just play along and create new hardware to work with the system. Problem is that Logitech was out of the console wheel market and didn't care at first and the only one that could afford at the time to meet the requirements and jump through the hoops was the biggest of the other two. TM and Fanatec are relatively tiny enterprises compared to Logitech and Fanatec in particular is quite small. They probably struggled with resources and in deciding whether to make an all new wheel, or go the route they did go.

Pure speculation of course, but it's an explaination that fits all the available facts and needs no conspiracy theories to make it work.
 
Just want to add, that a big part of problem is that no one made a cheap (but good) wheel for the PS4. If there was something like the DFGT, no matter from what manufacturer, there wouldn’t be so much drama. But the fact that the first decent wheel costs as much as the console threw many people off, and rightly so. That would not solve the backwards compatibility issue, but at least offer a reasonable solution.
And given that many people that did not have a PS3 or a wheel before that, got a PS4, those wheels would have been flying off the shelfs. Amazing how no one from all those marketing departments in those companies did not see that huge gap in an upcoming market.
 
Johnnypenso
The most likely explaination is that Sony came up with the security chip idea and assumed that wheel makers would just play along and create new hardware to work with the system. Problem is that Logitech was out of the console wheel market and didn't care at first and the only one that could afford at the time to meet the requirements and jump through the hoops was the biggest of the other two. TM and Fanatec are relatively tiny enterprises compared to Logitech and Fanatec in particular is quite small. They probably struggled with resources and in deciding whether to make an all new wheel, or go the route they did go.
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There was a quote earlier about Logitech's development of the G29. It quoted someone from Logitech saying that they had been working with Sony for the past 18 months, so they have been busy in the console industry.

Why Logitech kept this so quiet is beyond me. Logitech have not handled this very well at all and they still refuse to give a concrete statement regarding the G27/PS4 support.
 
Ian_83
There was a quote earlier about Logitech's development of the G29. It quoted someone from Logitech saying that they had been working with Sony for the past 18 months, so they have been busy in the console industry.

Why Logitech kept this so quiet is beyond me. Logitech have not handled this very well at all and they still refuse to give a concrete statement regarding the G27/PS4 support.
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They have been working on re-entering the console market, but did announce a couple of years ago that they were out. A change in management spurred a change in philosophy but the point was that their previous announcement explains why they weren't at the forefront like TM was when the PS4 was released, hence a big part of the reason it appears like TM has an exclusive arrangement, when it's probably just the circumstances of it being a tiny market with only 3 competitors, one of which wasn't interested until recently.
 
Johnnypenso
They have been working on re-entering the console market, but did announce a couple of years ago that they were out. A change in management spurred a change in philosophy but the point was that their previous announcement explains why they weren't at the forefront like TM was when the PS4 was released, hence a big part of the reason it appears like TM has an exclusive arrangement, when it's probably just the circumstances of it being a tiny market with only 3 competitors, one of which wasn't interested until recently.
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I'm a firm believer that TM had an exclusive deal with Sony. But besides all of that, why have Logitech fumbled this re-emergence into the console market and alienated its current customer base, causing many of them to buy a TM wheel instead? Someone at the top of Logitech makes some very odd decisions. :lol:
 
Ian_83
I'm a firm believer that TM had an exclusive deal with Sony. But besides all of that, why have Logitech fumbled this re-emergence into the console market and alienated its current customer base, causing many of them to buy a TM wheel instead? Someone at the top of Logitech makes some very odd decisions. :lol:
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Logitech made a corporate decision to exit the console peripheral market a couple of years ago. A change in management led to a change in direction back to the console peripheral market. They have made the decision to go with something "new" instead of supporting their older wheels, betting on making more money by selling something new and overpriced vs the goodwill generated by supporting older devices + offering something new. Whether this works out in their favour or not we'll never know but there's nothing conspiratorial about it, just business. We might make a different decision, but we aren't in the big chair.

If TM had an exclusive arrangment with Sony, which they presumably paid for, why did they not market the hell out of it while they had it? A monopoly, even a temporary one, is the biggest competitive advantage possible. The argument for a TM monopoly falls apart when you consider the facts.
 
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Johnnypenso
If there was an exclusivity arrangement, TM would have marketed the hell out of it, and they didn't.
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TM didn't need to market the hell out of it, the fact is that there was only one manufacturer that we could purchase a PS4 compatible wheel from. If TM had said, "our wheels are exclusive to the PS4", people would just wait for the exclusivity deal to finish and then buy from their preferred manufacturer. TM had no reason to shout about an exclusive deal, in fact Sony may have had an NDA with TM preventing them from mentioning an exclusive deal too, which would keep the pressure off Sony's back.

Anyway......it's my belief, I'm not worried what anyone else thinks and I would just like Logitech to support their older wheels on the PS4, so that both myself and all other Logitech customers get good use out of their existing products and then when the time comes a G29 would be the next step. I don't want to debate whether or not TM had an exclusive with Sony, I think we can all form our own opinions on that. 👍
 
Johnnypenso
I don't believe one can make a business case for Sony making more money by granting TM an exclusive. Sony's primary interest is in moving consoles. The best way to move consoles is to provide legacy support to ease the transition from one generation to the next. An exclusivity arrangement with TM is in TM's best interest, not Sony's, because you're throwing up a huge barrier to entry into next-gen by giving that arrangement. I believe TM's revenue is in the $20million range so paying an exclusivity fee to Sony would amount to only a couple million at best, which Sony would likely lose dozens of times over by not allowing Logitech and Fanatec owners an easy transition to the next console.

The most likely explaination is that Sony came up with the security chip idea and assumed that wheel makers would just play along and create new hardware to work with the system. Problem is that Logitech was out of the console wheel market and didn't care at first and the only one that could afford at the time to meet the requirements and jump through the hoops was the biggest of the other two. TM and Fanatec are relatively tiny enterprises compared to Logitech and Fanatec in particular is quite small. They probably struggled with resources and in deciding whether to make an all new wheel, or go the route they did go.

Pure speculation of course, but it's an explaination that fits all the available facts and needs no conspiracy theories to make it work.
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When the PS3 was first released in the USA, it cost $400 for the buyer, but cost Sony $800 to produce. Sony sold that games console at a loss initially, & profited through the sales of games etc. I guess it's a similar situation with the PS4, so Sony's 'primary interest' therefore is not in selling consoles, but to make sure that those who buy them buy lots of games & extras as well so they can make a profit. There was only 1 racing game on the console at the time, DRIVECLUB, & Thrustmaster made a cheap wheel especially for it, obviously both them & Sony made money from that arrangement. If Sony had allowed any wheels to work on PS4, & thus with DRIVECLUB, most people wouldn't have bought the T80 & Sony actually would've lost money.

While I'm not inclined to make absolute statements either way, I can see why a time limited exclusivity deal might have been in the interests of both Sony & Thrustmaster.
 
sems4arsenal
I think a lot of you are harsh on Logitech, we still don't know if they pay license fees or not.

also if they released the G29 there is no way they'll support the old wheels, it's a business not charity.
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They deserve the harshness because of their inability to communicate with their customers.

VBR
When the PS3 was first released in the USA, it cost $400 for the buyer, but cost Sony $800 to produce. Sony sold that games console at a loss initially, & profited through the sales of games etc.
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I don't doubt that it was sold at a loss, as this is pretty common with consoles, except for Nintendo. However, a 400 dollar loss per unit seems a bit extreme. Do you have a source for that?

Also, wasn't it 600 dollars at launch?
 
I finally got a concrete answer from Logitech via email.


Dear Barrett,

Our engineering have provided this answer as the final one: The Logitech G27 Racing Wheel was designed to work on the PS2, PS3 and PC. The G29 Driving Force replaces the G27. We will not support G27 on PlayStation 4.

Kind Regards,
John G.
Corporate Escalations - USA
 
Johnnypenso
I don't believe one can make a business case for Sony making more money by granting TM an exclusive. Sony's primary interest is in moving consoles. The best way to move consoles is to provide legacy support to ease the transition from one generation to the next. An exclusivity arrangement with TM is in TM's best interest, not Sony's, because you're throwing up a huge barrier to entry into next-gen by giving that arrangement. I believe TM's revenue is in the $20million range so paying an exclusivity fee to Sony would amount to only a couple million at best, which Sony would likely lose dozens of times over by not allowing Logitech and Fanatec owners an easy transition to the next console.

The most likely explaination is that Sony came up with the security chip idea and assumed that wheel makers would just play along and create new hardware to work with the system. Problem is that Logitech was out of the console wheel market and didn't care at first and the only one that could afford at the time to meet the requirements and jump through the hoops was the biggest of the other two. TM and Fanatec are relatively tiny enterprises compared to Logitech and Fanatec in particular is quite small. They probably struggled with resources and in deciding whether to make an all new wheel, or go the route they did go.

Pure speculation of course, but it's an explaination that fits all the available facts and needs no conspiracy theories to make it work.
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That's not what the CEO of Fanatec said.

as for Sony benefiting from a TM exclusive license, considering no sim was released during that period and the fact they're dominating console sales means they were smart about this.
 
Pseudopod
I don't doubt that it was sold at a loss, as this is pretty common with consoles, except for Nintendo. However, a 400 dollar loss per unit seems a bit extreme. Do you have a source for that?
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lmgtfy!

www.engadget.com/2006/02/18/playstation-3-estimated-to-cost-900-per-unit/

www.dailytech.com/PS3+Costs+Sony+800/article871.htm

www.technologizer.com/2009/07/30/playstation-3-now-70-cheaper-to-build/


My assumption about the PS4 seems to be incorrect, although the profit margins are really tight & Sony would still be making most of their money from games & peripherals.

allthingsd.com/20131119/teardown-shows-sonys-playstation-4-costs-381-to-build/


👍
 
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Ian_83
TM didn't need to market the hell out of it, the fact is that there was only one manufacturer that we could purchase a PS4 compatible wheel from. If TM had said, "our wheels are exclusive to the PS4", people would just wait for the exclusivity deal to finish and then buy from their preferred manufacturer. TM had no reason to shout about an exclusive deal, in fact Sony may have had an NDA with TM preventing them from mentioning an exclusive deal too, which would keep the pressure off Sony's back.

Anyway......it's my belief, I'm not worried what anyone else thinks and I would just like Logitech to support their older wheels on the PS4, so that both myself and all other Logitech customers get good use out of their existing products and then when the time comes a G29 would be the next step. I don't want to debate whether or not TM had an exclusive with Sony, I think we can all form our own opinions on that. 👍
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This defies all marketing logic since the dawn of time. You have an exclusive, you market the hell out of it for as long as you can, you don't sit around hoping everyone figures out it's exclusive, you tell everyone, repeatedly, to take maximum advantage of your exclusivity. To suggest Sony would keep it a secret is also beyond logic. The miniscule amount of money they'd gain from TM for an exclusive would never justify the arrangement to begin with.

VBR
When the PS3 was first released in the USA, it cost $400 for the buyer, but cost Sony $800 to produce. Sony sold that games console at a loss initially, & profited through the sales of games etc. I guess it's a similar situation with the PS4, so Sony's 'primary interest' therefore is not in selling consoles, but to make sure that those who buy them buy lots of games & extras as well so they can make a profit. There was only 1 racing game on the console at the time, DRIVECLUB, & Thrustmaster made a cheap wheel especially for it, obviously both them & Sony made money from that arrangement. If Sony had allowed any wheels to work on PS4, & thus with DRIVECLUB, most people wouldn't have bought the T80 & Sony actually would've lost money.

While I'm not inclined to make absolute statements either way, I can see why a time limited exclusivity deal might have been in the interests of both Sony & Thrustmaster.
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Sony's primary focus would still be moving consoles if they cost $1800 to make because console sales = game sales. You can't have one without the other. Logic would dictate that getting all three wheel manufacturers on board from the beginning would be the best way for Sony to facilitate console sales, even if DC was the only game available for quite a while. If Sony had allowed all wheels to work on the PS4 they would have sold more consoles and more games, without question. Any barrier to entry, even one under $100, will slow sales. Also quite probably that anyone used to a 900 degree FFB wheel would have no interest in a crappy T80 or the T100 for that matter.
 
Johnnypenso
Sony's primary focus would still be moving consoles if they cost $1800 to make because console sales = game sales. You can't have one without the other. Logic would dictate that getting all three wheel manufacturers on board from the beginning would be the best way for Sony to facilitate console sales, even if DC was the only game available for quite a while. If Sony had allowed all wheels to work on the PS4 they would have sold more consoles and more games, without question. Any barrier to entry, even one under $100, will slow sales. Also quite probably that anyone used to a 900 degree FFB wheel would have no interest in a crappy T80 or the T100 for that matter.
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I do enjoy our little discussions Johnny! :D Truth be told, there is good reasoning on both sides, & we'll really never know what's actually been going on behind the scenes.


👍
 
Kind of funny, I saw a contest on twitter last week. It was for pcars and you can win a trip to gamecon or something like that. It was sponsored by Logitech. Just kind of funny with all the negative press surrounding them.
 
mjm23race
Kind of funny, I saw a contest on twitter last week. It was for pcars and you can win a trip to gamecon or something like that. It was sponsored by Logitech. Just kind of funny with all the negative press surrounding them.
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I saw a similar one on facebook. Logitech posted on Project Car's wall, they are members of the same golf club. Apparently Security chipped in for a bogey so Chewbacca threw all of the drivers out of his pram.
Forza Horizon 2 Holiday Road DLC content was leaked on youtube. You can win a trip to Wally World.
Kaz and Yoda alike, this.
 
VBR
I'm sure Logitech can patch that so it doesn't work, just like the G27/G27/DFGT don't work.


:sly:
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The key message in that video was the PS3/PS4 switch. All too familiar from the T300.
 
Ian_83
I love the fact that on the PC version of Project Cars it was recognised as a G27 and on the PS3 it's a DFGT. :lol:
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Does the video above show anything about it?
Even PC's and Consoles knew that G29 is just a mashup of G27 and DFGT :lol:
 
Ian_83
I'd like to ask Logitech exactly "why won't the G27 be supported on the PS4?"

There must be a reason....
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On that subject and people saying G25/27 are obsolete. They may be outdated but I really enjoy my G25, for years. The new ones like G920 is $400. Not everybody has that much to spend like snapping your finger. Meanwhile, I still have F1 games and Gran Turismo that work fine with my wheel. So if they come up with something, which I think they owe to hardcore fan, if not then?!?!?!~|\xxxxxx.... No matter what the wheel is way better than the controller. Don't feel natural not appropriate to race. Thank you.
 
ICEMAN68
On that subject and people saying G25/27 are obsolete. They may be outdated but I really enjoy my G25, for years.
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G25 was an awesome wheel. Superior to the G27 (just check the FFB deadzone and linearity graphs scattered over the web).
 
ICEMAN68
On that subject and people saying G25/27 are obsolete. They may be outdated but I really enjoy my G25, for years. The new ones like G920 is $400. Not everybody has that much to spend like snapping your finger. Meanwhile, I still have F1 games and Gran Turismo that work fine with my wheel. So if they come up with something, which I think they owe to hardcore fan, if not then?!?!?!~|\xxxxxx.... No matter what the wheel is way better than the controller. Don't feel natural not appropriate to race. Thank you.
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The G25/27 is obsolete if you want to use it on a next-gen console.
 
Sold my brand new & sealed G27, & once I get a pedal set for my Fanatec GT2 then I'll sell my G25 also. Going to sell my Logitech Mediaboard Pro as well just for good measure, & I'll never ever buy anything from this greedy & despicable company ever again. Good riddance!


👎
 
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