Project R

[nick09]

So are you planning on setting up the receivers in the cockpit too!? If so then you should buy some computer cooling fans and make sure that you and your equipment will stay cool.

 

[stega]

Don't mean to hijack your thread Mr Latte, but do you, or anyone know of a way to increase the output of a buttkicker type device, I think I need some sort of Pre-Amp, anyone know of a suitable device?

lol can people please read other active threads... There is a HUGE thread about this topic please use it. It is called Buttkickers worth it?? or something like that. Sorry but this stuff really pisses me off when it seems people did not even glance at the topic/thread.

 

[Mr Latte]

Nick I dont think temps will be that much of a problem many amps these days have fans and built in sensors. Will take on board though having some form of ventalation. If I need to use some I have loads of old 80mm PC fans knocking about from years back and they could be used with a cheap £2.99 12 volt adapter like what I tested the LED lights with so far.


Doc
PM me if you have specific questions I will help if I can or as mentioned see the BK thread. If you want to PM then best to tell me what model you have and amplifer etc. Although increasing the LFE output and reducing speaker set DB volumes to main speakers is the first option then cranking the actual volume louder/more when playing.

I recommend and if that doesnt do enough then possibly consider new amplification for your BK unit. If its a gamer model then take into account its not much at 90watts although it can give a decent smack...

 

[Mr Latte]

Well with the news from E3 I feel so deflated knowing that its going to be a long wait to November for the games release.

Really was hoping and thought the chances of a summer release were strong.
Looks like F1 2010 and the new Test Drive will both be released before GT5.

Updates will continue again soon...

 

[stega]

Well with the news from E3 I feel so deflated knowing that its going to be a long wait to November for the games release.

Really was hoping and thought the chances of a summer release were strong.
Looks like F1 2010 and the new Test Drive will both be released before GT5.

Updates will continue again soon...

So dick right?? lol

This eurogamer interview has me worried about the game honestly.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah the only comfort I take from it is that the game will be EPIC, err wont it?
Still the only other worries I have is no mention of multimonitor or lan from E3 at this point.

 

[stega]

Wow this whole no cockpit view thing on standard cars has really got me worried. If this is true I am so so so so so disappointed in gt5.
I just want a straight answer.

 

[scutzi128]

If not every car has cockpit view this game will be an utter disappointment from the getgo to me.

 

[Racer XO]

Audio Update
Although amplification for the Buttkickers and Subwoofers was going to be included anyways the audio also required my home 7.1 AV setup.

Now instead of just bass onboard speakers and their own AV amplification will be included into the build rather than just using my home AV system. This will fully intergrate the cockpit meaning everything needed is self contained now. Ive already purchased the speakers (ebay) for less than £100 which of course are compact but stylish and should improve the looks of the cockpit even more when finished as well. Not gonna show these yet as they will require a bit of modification to where I plan to place them. So these will be a surprise for later

Hey Mr. Latte

have you considered using transducers instead of the butt kickers? The reason I ask is that one transducer will give you deeper immersion and more flexibility when it comes to mounting than the butt kickers can. I had a butt kicker on my rig before switching over to the transducers and the sound was night and day as they are true tactile sound and will reproduce all of the engine sounds that the kickers cannot considering they just vibrate.

I have the Clark Synthesis 429 platinum on my rig which is totally hidden because of it's low profile and everyone that sits in my rig love the sound it puts out.

If you like here is the link for you to take a look http://www.clarksynthesis.com/

 

[jswilli1]

Hey Mr. Latte

have you considered using transducers instead of the butt kickers? The reason I ask is that one transducer will give you deeper immersion and more flexibility when it comes to mounting than the butt kickers can. I had a butt kicker on my rig before switching over to the transducers and the sound was night and day as they are true tactile sound and will reproduce all of the engine sounds that the kickers cannot considering they just vibrate.

I have the Clark Synthesis 429 platinum on my rig which is totally hidden because of it's low profile and everyone that sits in my rig love the sound it puts out.

If you like here is the link for you to take a look http://www.clarksynthesis.com/

The Clark Synthesis transducer looks nice but is twice the price of a ButtKicker at $529 USD (kit). I have looked at them online and they look promising. You mention "Sound", does it both vibrate and act like a speaker? A transducer is supposed to be a "silent" subwoofer that doesn't emit sound? or does the Clark Synthesis Transducer do double duty and perform like a subwoofer also?

 

[stega]

If not every car has cockpit view this game will be an utter disappointment from the getgo to me.

Well unfortunately it was just confirmed. Only the 200 premium cars will have in cockpit view. I am sorry about talking about this in this thread Latte but I wanted to talk about it w/ people who are building/using cockpits. I am super utterly disappointed. WTF HAS PD BEEN DOING FOR YEARS???

 

[Racer XO]

No...the transducer does not act like a speaker, because a speaker CANNOT reproduce TACTILE sound nor is it a subwoofer or silent.

The key word is Tactile, because tactile sound is sound you feel in your muscle and deep tissue, Sense of touch (skin sensation), Bone conduction - in particular the skull as well as producing sound you hear.

Speakers, bass shakers and the like cannot produce tactile sound in the frequencies that a Transducer can.

Just do a google search on tactile sound and tranducers so you can have a better understanding for yourself, and they are no where near double the price of a butt kicker as the Platinum can be purchased for $449 for the top model or as low as $79, however you will need to purchase a mono block amp to power it. Considering Mr. Latte is building a very good rig this is very very good option he should consider.

Here are a couple links for you to read the reviews....hope this helps

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_4/clark-platinum-shaker-11-2003.html

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=464085

 

[jswilli1]

No...the transducer does not act like a speaker, because a speaker CANNOT reproduce TACTILE sound nor is it a subwoofer or silent.

The key word is Tactile, because tactile sound is sound you feel in your muscle and deep tissue, Sense of touch (skin sensation), Bone conduction - in particular the skull.

Speakers, bass shakers and the like cannot produce tactile sound in the frequencies that a Transducer can.

Just do a google search on tactile sound and tranducers so you can have a better understanding for yourself, and they are no where near double the price of a butt kicker as the Platinum can be purchased for $449, however you will need to purchase a mono block amp to power it. Considering Mr. Latte is building a very good rig this is very very good option he should consider.

I retract what I said earlier, I went and looked up the specs. The ButtKicker is basically a "vibrator" with a frequency response of 5Hz to 200Hz. The Tactile Transducer has a frequency response of 5Hz to 17kHz (17,000Hz) which explains why it is much more responsive. The issue I see is if you connect it to your LFE channel and your crossover is set at 120 or even 200Hz then you are not utilizing the Tactile Transducer to its full potential? Correct the transducer is $449 or you can get it as a kit for $529. It would definetly be something I may try in the future since I was thinking about buying a second BK.👍

 

[Racer XO]

I retract what I said earlier, I went and looked up the specs. The ButtKicker is basically a "vibrator" with a frequency response of 5Hz to 200Hz. The Tactile Transducer has a frequency response of 5Hz to 17kHz (17,000Hz) which explains why it is much more responsive. The issue I see is if you connect it to your LFE channel and your crossover is set at 120 or even 200Hz then you are not utilizing the Tactile Transducer to its full potential? Correct the transducer is $449 or you can get it as a kit for $529. It would definetly be something I may try in the future since I was thinking about buying a second BK.👍

It's all good bro 👍

I didn't buy the kit when I got the 429, but I did buy the AudioSource 5.3 mono amp which adds to your statement of the LFE channel...which you are 100% correct on which is why one would be better off adding to the price of the transducer to get full use out of it by getting a mono block amp as well.

 

[scutzi128]

Well unfortunately it was just confirmed. Only the 200 premium cars will have in cockpit view. I am sorry about talking about this in this thread Latte but I wanted to talk about it w/ people who are building/using cockpits. I am super utterly disappointed. WTF HAS PD BEEN DOING FOR YEARS???

Damn! Forza was able to do this and with about half the development time. Hopefully the game can make up for it in other ways but its not starting off well imo.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi guys,

Just to cover some of the previous comments...

Buttkicker are by far the largest and strongest brand Im aware of for "Transducer" type devices.
They are also used in some professional cockpit solutions
See here

Look here if you want to learn about these devices

However their expertise is used not only for home usage but for musical professionals, also Imax theatres and on attractions within Disney and Universal. As weve mentioned using the .1 output limiting its crossover and combined with EQ gives greater control over the frequency range givng the user a tailored performance to thier individual usage or games.

The project has shown I want to mix audible bass with transducer bass as early testing proved both have advantages and certain disadvantages used with games but combined offer the best solution.

As for the non cockpit issues coming from E3 for GT5.
I will be taking the good with the bad. So while its a let down in one sense the sheer quality of the premium cars should be an impressive bonus. Yes I can live without cockpit in every car but have a feeling many of the major favourites within the 200 premium will cover cars we would likely really want anyways.

Personally I can do faster lap times using the tarmac view but do enjoy some cars cockpit modes and triple screen which still hasnt been demonstrated or fully confirmed yet does indeed make dockpit mode much more impressive and not just looking out of a box.

We still havnt seen the best yet from this game and in particular the fully implemented damage modelling. If these premium cars offer much more impressive gameplay features/enviroments then chances are people will be more drawn to play the game with these cars but thats just my gut feeling on the issue and maybe when the games released peoples opinons will vary from the initial shock at the moment of this news.

 

[tinker]

Buttkicker are by far the largest and strongest brand Im aware of for "Transducer" type devices.

Being a bit snarky here. Largest and strongest brand, yup all it takes is a bit of marketing...

I'm not quite unbiased here, I chose to buy a tt from Clark Synthesis. making what I think is an educated choice of product, the Guitamer BK-LFE did seem very alluring

Then again, I do have a tendency to be a bit contrarian and like finding alternatives to the general trend.

---

If interested check out this perspective from a tt producer who seem a bit challenged marketing wise
http://clarksynthesis.com/military_products.html
http://www.clarksynthesis.com/lib/pdf/product/TactileSound101_WhitePaper.pdf

Originally developed for military simulation devices, these transducers were specifically designed to provide realistic reproduction of highly dynamic bass — making explosions, gunshots, and any other bass impacts seem as real as possible.

Transduction Force: 6.9 lb-ft/watt
Tactile Force Peak: 932 lb-ft

TST 429 - applications:
Sound masking – Naval Decryption Centers
Commercial and military simulation – F14, F16, F18a, Bradley Tank, etc.
Sound cancellation – Boeing assembly plant 28db reduction from power transformers
Assisting the deaf – Brentwood Deaf Auditorium
Commercial and home theater – Adding realism to suspend disbelief while lowering SPL
Theme and amusement parks – Theme parks: Disney, Universal Studios, Six Flags, etc.

 

[Racer XO]

Being a bit snarky here. Largest and strongest brand, yup all it takes is a bit of marketing...

I'm not quite unbiased here, I chose to buy a tt from Clark Synthesis. making what I think is an educated choice of product, the Guitamer BK-LFE did seem very alluring

Then again, I do have a tendency to be a bit contrarian and like finding alternatives to the general trend.

---

If interested check out this perspective from a tt producer who seem a bit challenged marketing wise
http://clarksynthesis.com/military_products.html
http://www.clarksynthesis.com/lib/pdf/product/TactileSound101_WhitePaper.pdf

Hi Tinker,,

Thanks for posting the links, I was going to post them but I didn't want to come off as biased, which is why I did post the AVS forum link considering how much clout AVS has when it comes to home theatre setups and everything related.

I'm not going to derail Mr. Latte' thread so I won't post any longer on this subject. Just merely putting information out that could help, the rest is up to the individual if they want to accept that info.

 

[Mr Latte]

Ive no problems guys with you posting or discussing alternatives.
Its actually good for the thread and can be useful to others.

For me its too late to consider other types as I already have mine purchased.

Cant complain getting one of the "Mini LFE" models on ebay for was it £35 when a new one cost me almost £100 delivered.

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

lol can people please read other active threads... There is a HUGE thread about this topic please use it. It is called Buttkickers worth it?? or something like that. Sorry but this stuff really pisses me off when it seems people did not even glance at the topic/thread.

Wow this whole no cockpit view thing on standard cars has really got me worried. If this is true I am so so so so so disappointed in gt5.
I just want a straight answer.

Wow there, spot the hypocrite !!! Seriously, get off your high horse.


Mr Latte, I apologise, but that guy was well out of order, anyway, good luck with your project, I'll keep out of it.

 

[stega]

Wow there, spot the hypocrite !!! Seriously, get off your high horse.


Mr Latte, I apologise, but that guy was well out of order, anyway, good luck with your project, I'll keep out of it.

Ok but your all wrong... First off I did not make a new thread because I thought it would be deleted for being "off topic" but the fact is it is not... People who build cockpits often drive from cockpit view and I wanted to comment/talk about it in this section of the forums. I actually told Latte that I knew it was inappropriate right after I did it so why don't you just mind your own business and not tell me what to do or what you think I am.

Again this is taking the thread off topic in yet another way... SORRY but he made me do it... (points up)

 

[Mr Latte]

No need to have a go at each other lads, gees please dont Im actually avoiding all the E3 threads at the moment as so many people hang on the negative issue's of this cockpit/standard cars. These forums are a real moan fest at the moment so last thing we need is more people not getting on.

My own personal thoughts on E3 GT5
Im focusing on what all has been shown, particulary happy to of seen proof again of 16 cars in a game. Tracks look excellent with new graphical effects, cars getting airbourne. The night racing with lights being a feature in game is very nice to see and on a technical level face tracking was shown and also confirmed to also work if wearing 3D glasses.

I know were Stega is coming in wanting to gather views opinions of people that are spending lots of money and time into having a cockpit primarily being made for their interest and excitment for GT5. Personally as I said I dont need cockpit view for all cars and sometimes switch between views, maybe some people want cockpit for all cars but PD has NEVER said all cars would have this instead its been assumed they would.

My own biggest worry is with triple monitor support, building this and finding the game wont support it. How gut wrenching will that be but with previous games supporting it I feel it will be implememted. If it turns out not to be in the game Im likely to make a move more towards PCs again as I want to play in triple screen more than with single screens or even a 3DTV.


I can honestly say if GT5 has 1000 cars or more I will drive about 50 favourites from that or around 4-5 personal favourites in each class. People will moan over everything it seems about GT but fail to see the bigger picture that this game even with its issues/faults is going to be one of if not the best racing game on any console and I think it will take many years for a console racing game to surpass what it offers.

Sony could also make an absolute fortune if the game later had DLC for additional "Premium Car Packs" as Microsoft have demonstrated with FM3 these can sell very well and as a business decision which people forget making video games is a business would give Sony/Polphony Digital increased revenue back. I for one wouldnt have a problem paying even individual prices for DLC.

Look at it this way to put 1000 cars in a game all with cockpits and charge the usual price of a game from that perspective GT5 would be the best value game in history. Id even be happy with just 200 Premium cars that can be smashed to bits and show all the glorious detail they have and will look stunning in Photomode or in replays. Quality over content is sometimes better but GT5 is giving both and yet amazingly people still moan on these forums...

 

[gslooney]

Totally agree with your sentiments Mr Latte re E3 and GT5. we almost have a date for the release

I've been following your thread with interest, I particularly like the dual buttkickers and have been messing around with buttkicker placement on my rig, so I'm just about to order another:tup:

One for the seat of the pants and another to connect the front end, I've also dug out my old marantz equlizer to balance the pair of them great stuff..

It may have started as a VR3 but it's gone all over the place

 

[ZROC]

Totally agree with your sentiments Mr Latte re E3 and GT5. we almost have a date for the release

I've been following your thread with interest, I particularly like the dual buttkickers and have been messing around with buttkicker placement on my rig, so I'm just about to order another:tup:

One for the seat of the pants and another to connect the front end, I've also dug out my old marantz equlizer to balance the pair of them great stuff..

It may have started as a VR3 but it's gone all over the place

We DO have a date for the release, Nov 2, 2010.

As far as cockpits go, I think we may just see all cars will have a cockpit view. The standard cars will just have a blacked out interior just like the GT PSP game.

This is from the Twitter feed...
"Regarding interior view…do you mean you would want a black frame interior view?

By blackframe, I meant same as in PSP (re: cockpit view)

In that case, it would be technically possible."

That doesn't mean it will happen, but I think Kaz understands how the people feel. Either way I will love the game.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi gslooney, nice to see you popping in and you know how much I liked your VR3 (ohhh the chrome). Id love for you to share your setup with us again and how its changed etc

Here we are all this time later and yes still no GT5.
btw I caught what you meant as UK/Europe doesnt yet have a release date.

New Item:
Won a Sony 7.1 silver amplifer auction for a snip at £130

The Sony STR-DG820 has high-definition audio decoding for Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master Audio and linear PCM, as well as supporting all the legacy Dolby and DTS surround sound formats.
It also has four HDMI 1.3 inputs and one output, with support for 1080p, 24fps, Deep Colour/x.v.colour, and complete system control via the Bravia Sync HDMI connection.

So thats most of audio components purchased now:

I will have to be careful as the ohm rating of the speakers is different to the amplifer so will test this out however I dont think I will be running this at too high volumes with the speakers in such close proximity of each other. Have read reports on some AV related forums of people doing the same with no problems in the amplifer overheating by just keeping a check on the volumes. Im a bit cautious but will give it all a test to decide if I have to resell and purchase a model with 4ohm switching.

 

[Mr Latte]

So with little being talked about regards the progress just wanted to post this...

Having completed the "Beta2" idea for the monitor supports Ive been testing it. Basically this "beta" was using "L" brackets onto the back of the "Vesa" mount and bolted to the main upright horizontal arms.

Its more solid better and tidier than the first attempt but the bolt that goes through the hole in the "L" bracket has a degree of movement within the metal pieces that connect to the main supports. Its not much but about 2mm movement vertically allowing the monitor to move ever so slightly up/down and well it was just getting on my nerves the more I thought about it.

I had ideas of jamming the bolt with wood or plastic to stop the movement but thats more futtering and I hate those kinda jobs.

So tonight sitting starring with a coffee in my hand, looking while working out speaker placement for these front uprights Ive come up with a new idea for the monitor mounting. "Beta3" should sort these monitor supports once and for all. Then I can get moving on to simplier things.

 

[stega]

I do admire the perfectionism... just don't get burnt out!

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah the frustration at times is a downer...

More of the speakers purchased on ebay arrived today...

Talked recently about adding audio into the project and have it all self contained. I didnt plan it but since buying the subwoofers and messing around with the GT theme coloured LED lights something has grown in me to wanting in some way pay homage to a Sony/GT5 theme for the project now. Ive bought many Sony products in my life and it was always one of those brands that had good products.

I seen these nice speakers noticed their slim slender design and they had chrome parts, yep the chrome swung it again, lol. I have a similar sound system in my business which although not fantastic sound quality these little boys can knock out a decent level of audio.

3x Front will be centred within the middle of the uprights just below the monitors and about 14" from the base. Two more will go at the back under the rear WRX spoiler and two will be firing upwards beside the seat in some manner giving a full 7 channel surround at close proximity. It may not have great channel seperation or audio qualty but it should be pretty darn decent.

I kinda feel these found me rather than me finding them and that they were made to go into the project. They should look great when its all in place but its all just meant to be maybe, just maybe eh?

Sony SS-TS551 100 Watt Speakers (ebay pic, honest this isnt my carpet!)
High level stands and bases wont be used.

I also purchased a set of Sony MDR-DS7000 7.1 Channel Digital Surround Wireless Headphones as annother ebay bargin.
Well it was fathers day yesterday so what the heck. These go for around £240 / $370 and I got them for a bargin of £81.

Reviews for them are quite good and they were only available originally in the Japan market made for PS3 games and movies.
Needed wireless headphones for this so all chuffed in getting them, again the Sony branding thing was like a little devil on my shoulder saying go on get em get em ...

Anyone else hear such little imaginary voices at times when really wanting something?
Maybe the wait for GT5 and the obsession of this is getting to me, lol?

 

[stega]

LOL at the pink carpet...
What do you mean by self contained?? Like all the speakers in one holding unit if you will... Or just have them all be a part of the cockpit itself instead of mounting a speaker here and there?

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah basically everything including the audio is dedicated to the cockpit. All the speakers will be attached onto the cockpit in one way or form and of course thats all on the base/platform section.
So lets see, the 3x monitors, 3x consoles, 7x speakers, 3x buttkickers, 2x 12" subwoofers, 4x amplifers and 1x graphic equaliser will all be contained in the build.
I will of course pinch one of the PS3 for the livingroom every so often but thats about it.