PURE | JGTS - Going on strong and adapting in the face of change!

[Denilson]

Just to make sure, Denilson, the first race on the 13th is after Abu Dhabi F1 race is over?

And I see I'm on the "need confirmation" list at the OP, but count me in 100%!!

I think the F1 race starts at 17.00 local time. Got no idea how tha translates to GMT tho..
I guess it should be 14.00 PM (CET), and NOON (GMT)... If that's the case, you can relax.. But I'm far away from surtain at it I might add..

Awesome, I'll put you up! 👍
Welcome!

 

[Imari]

Honestly, I'd drive an NSX even if it was non-optimal just because I like it better. I actually like that weird, edgy driving style. I'm pretty sure it's not faster than driving a "normal" car, I just enjoy it more.

Also, GTRs and Supras are what cashed up bogans buy.

I don't have time for any serious comparative testing at the moment so I'll stay out of the balancing discussion though. Remember though that realistically the best we're ever going to get is close, not equal. Even the real Super GT series eventually gave up and regulated the MR cars out of existence.

 

[Denilson]

Honestly, I'd drive an NSX even if it was non-optimal just because I like it better. I actually like that weird, edgy driving style. I'm pretty sure it's not faster than driving a "normal" car, I just enjoy it more.

Also, GTRs and Supras are what cashed up bogans buy.

I don't have time for any serious comparative testing at the moment so I'll stay out of the balancing discussion though. Remember though that realistically the best we're ever going to get is close, not equal. Even the real Super GT series eventually gave up and regulated the MR cars out of existence.

Just for reference regarding the NSX.

In WSGTC, we saw 10 different winners in 11 races.

Winners (Only winning drivers cars are counted for. I.e a driver that drives a GT-R but did not get a win is not counted for)
NSX: 3 wins / 19 attended races: (Monza, Indianapolis, La Sarthe)
GT-R: 3 wins / 15 attended races: (Suzuka, Fuji, Nurburgring GP/F)
CASTROL TOMS'S SUPRA: 2 wins / 16 attended races: (Monaco, Nurburgring 24h)
Z: 1 win / 10 attended races: (Tsukuba)
Lexus: 2 wins / 12 races (Laguna Seca, Daytona)

PP
GT-R: 4
NSX: 4
CASTROL TOM'S: 0
Z: 0
Lexus: 3

FL
GT-R: 2
NSX: 2
CASTROL TOM'S: 3
Z: 1
Lexus: 2
YELLOWHAT SUPRA: 1


Looks quite equal to me.

 

[Adam41]

Yeah but what you don't see there is the different between the NSX and say GTR at the races they won at. The NSXs might have only just won their races, yet when the GTRs won the NSXs were no where to be seen. I don't know if this is the case but ;p I think I remember you saying the NSX needed more power.

 

[lapierre4]

This is looking too much fun to skip the occasion! I don't think I'll be there for all the races but I will be racing a few of them, if possible.

I'm really looking forward to that 👍

 

[CSLACR]

Ya I agree. If the NSX was slower than the GTRs in WSGTC still needs more power given to it, the gap between the NSX's times on the faster circuits and the GTRs times on the tighter circuits will increase even more.

The NSX in WSGTC runs 545HP, where this listing of 604PP puts it around 520HP, which from what I've seen, takes it out of the running completely.

But I don't like the way NSX's at WSGTC spec dominate fast tracks, and get creamed on tight ones, a little variance is good, but they're pretty drastic differences here.
So far putting every car to 1150KG is looking pretty decent, helps the Motul GTR, Yellowhat Supra, Castrol Toms Supra, and NSX's, especially the Epson NSX, and puts the field more on par for cornering, which allows the straight line speeds to be closer as well.

Yeah but what you don't see there is the different between the NSX and say GTR at the races they won at. The NSXs might have only just won their races, yet when the GTRs won the NSXs were no where to be seen. I don't know if this is the case but ;p I think I remember you saying the NSX needed more power.

This is pretty much what I was going to say, but also the newer list has them down about 25HP from that.

Honestly it's not a huge deal to me, but if it stays the same I don't see many people wanting the car.
That's part of what I consider balanced, is when people are wanting each car the same amount. Currently, it seems very few are even interested in them, maybe I'm wrong though.

 

[Denilson]

Yeah but what you don't see there is the different between the NSX and say GTR at the races they won at. The NSXs might have only just won their races, yet when the GTRs won the NSXs were no where to be seen. I don't know if this is the case but ;p I think I remember you saying the NSX needed more power.

The NSX is defenetly hard to get on par. Yes, we know that.
So what's your solution?

When looking at top 5 in the championship:
GT-R (Remy_K)
Lexus (Paginas)
NSX (Redreevos
GT-R (Denilson)
NSX (C-Falcon89)
TOM'S SUPRA (SupraPhant0m)
Z (Biffy ended up just outside this group. Dantedani got 1 win / 3 races with it)
YELLOWHAT SUPRA(Joshua1994 did not race or put in enough time in WSGTC to fairly display the potential of the YH SUPRA)
This is facts.

Exept from Remy, I think the rest of the drivers are fairly equal as far as GT5 driver skill goes..
When looking at the numbers I previously posted, this does not seem like an uneven field, right?
So what am I missing?

Only reason me and Wardez wanted to try the NSX at 604 pp was to remove some of that really sharp end on the straights. It will still have better acceleration, and higher top speed.


CSLACR: I hear you about adding up to a weight of 1150 kg.
But, the CASTROL or AUTECH GT-R does not suffer from their higher weights, so there's no need to drag the other cars down imo.
It will also rquire a totally new test of all cars. And that's probably 4 weeks of testing.
I hope that we can use the base that I tested out prior WSGTC. Cause when looking at the results (For each round, total table, PP and FL) all cars are represented. So I truly believe that I got them pretty equal for WSGTC.
What we are thinking about now is to tweak some of them just a tad to find that perfect soft spot across the selection.
Basically, is't about tweaking a few pp here and there, and we should have a close to perfect grid.
The 604 for the NSX is just a number we want you guys to try out, and have a say about. It's enteirly possible that it will stay at 610 pp if the tesitng shows it. The list I posted was just testing values, nothing that's decided.
Perhaps I did not state that clear in my post. But that's the way it is.

So why did we suggest 604 for the NSX?
Because it was a true beast on the straights, and since the track list is more oriented towards the faster trcks compared to WSGTC, keeping the NSX at 610 might be too much. Especially if we swap Suzuka for Monza.

Btw: It would be great to see some lap times as well. 👍

NOTE: The only two drivers that have specifically said they want a sertain car (Imari and Nastraudamus87) is the NSX. I belive Redreevos likes it as well.

 

[CSLACR]

In my testing so far, 1150KG levels the cars more.

I had the Spa locked in so while I had it that's all I did, I plan to obviously try some other tracks, but in current WSGTC spec (605pp NSX though) they were mostly 2:15.2-16.0, with the NSX at 14.8, Denso SC430 and GTR at 15.5, Xanavi Z at 15.2, YMS Supra and Castrol were lagging a bit. 15.8 YMS, 16.0 TOM's.

I have a couple more cars to build to spec, but adding the weight to 1150kg each was pretty clearly leveling this, the Tom's no longer had extra weight, the YMS balance went from 47/53 to 50/50, the NSX's (except EPSON) went to 1 click shy of 48/52, they all handled better and were easier to drive respective the SC430 and GTR's.
The Stealth GTR also lost it's weight advantage, which was 100kg on the Epson and Tom's.

I can probably have specs to try in 2 days, full blown specs that would limit the need for the NSX's to have a huge speed advantage, and help minimize it, along with giving slower cars like the SC430's a slight power boost. That way races like Le Sarthe aren't just fighting to finish behind the NSX's for everyone else, and tighter tracks aren't hopeless for NSX's as well.

But the effective PP for each car would change, for example, the NSX drops to 600PP, the GTR at 606PP, so some tweaking in power settings can be done.

 

[Biffy]

I know this isn't a car we are debating about but I feel the Z is perfectly balanced for the championship. Personally I just couldn't drive it properly, even though I've improved with throttle control during WSGTC, it felt like there was too much oversteer to handle with my DS3. Anyone with a wheel should be able to drive it to it's full potential.

Hoping to get in a GT-R this season, feel in my element driving those and I can actually control them 👍

 

[Dr_Watson]

What the hell...I guess I'm in. With my PC being a bit crippled atm (and more important priorties to pay for), leaving iRacing out of the question, I thought this might be a good time to jump back to GT5 for a bit of fun.

Tommorow I plan on locking myself in the closet (I mean online lobby lol) in order to try and polish off some of the massive rust that has likely collected since GT Academy

oh god... how many more GT-A finalists are going to show up?
I've seen choat and appalachian_kris floating around online lately

 

[Denilson]

In my testing so far, 1150KG levels the cars more.

I had the Spa locked in so while I had it that's all I did, I plan to obviously try some other tracks, but in current WSGTC spec (605pp NSX though) they were mostly 2:15.2-16.0, with the NSX at 14.8, Denso SC430 and GTR at 15.5, Xanavi Z at 15.2, YMS Supra and Castrol were lagging a bit. 15.8 YMS, 16.0 TOM's.

I have a couple more cars to build to spec, but adding the weight to 1150kg each was pretty clearly leveling this, the Tom's no longer had extra weight, the YMS balance went from 47/53 to 50/50, the NSX's (except EPSON) went to 1 click shy of 48/52, they all handled better and were easier to drive respective the SC430 and GTR's.
The Stealth GTR also lost it's weight advantage, which was 100kg on the Epson and Tom's.

I can probably have specs to try in 2 days, full blown specs that would limit the need for the NSX's to have a huge speed advantage, and help minimize it, along with giving slower cars like the SC430's a slight power boost. That way races like Le Sarthe aren't just fighting to finish behind the NSX's for everyone else, and tighter tracks aren't hopeless for NSX's as well.

But the effective PP for each car would change, for example, the NSX drops to 600PP, the GTR at 606PP, so some tweaking in power settings can be done.

That sounds good! And if you can suceed with such tesitng it would be great.
But the YELLOWHAT SUPRA should not have more weight added.. Ok, maybee 30 kg to even out the weight distrubution a bit, but not 60 kg. It will be killed imo. I have not tested that ofc, but from what I know when testing it at 1090.. Keep in mind that it got less aero, so the bigger weight would have bigger affect on it. Or at least I think so.

Only thing I do not agree on is to boost the Lexus (I assume you're talking about the petronas and denso), it's a bit (tiny) faster than the GT-R right now, and we (Wardez and I) discussed to lower it from 612 to 610..

Aa, well, testing continues.. Will be awesome to see your results when you're done. 👍

I really appritiate the time you put in to help out with the tests.

 

[CSLACR]

I know this isn't a car we are debating about but I feel the Z is perfectly balanced for the championship. Personally I just couldn't drive it properly, even though I've improved with throttle control during WSGTC, it felt like there was too much oversteer to handle with my DS3. Anyone with a wheel should be able to drive it to it's full potential.

Hoping to get in a GT-R this season, feel in my element driving those and I can actually control them 👍

The Z is very close to the GTR's in every way from what I can tell, but spins the wheels easier. This is somewhat helped at 1150KG.

That sounds good! And if you can suceed with such tesitng it would be great.
But the YELLOWHAT SUPRA should not have more weight added.. Ok, maybee 30 kg to even out the weight distrubution a bit, but not 60 kg. It will be killed imo. I have not tested that ofc, but from what I know when testing it at 1090.. Keep in mind that it got less aero, so the bigger weight would have bigger affect on it. Or at least I think so.

Only thing I do not agree on is to boost the Lexus (I assume you're talking about the petronas and denso), it's a bit (tiny) faster than the GT-R right now, and we (Wardez and I) discussed to lower it from 612 to 610..

Aa, well, testing continues.. Will be awesome to see your results when you're done. 👍

I really appritiate the time you put in to help out with the tests.

I was actually using the Lexus as an example, IIRC people said it was slow, but the point I mean in "boosting" would be to most of these cars, whether by lowering the NSX (likely) or increasing them.
But the GTR (and Z) is good stock, so I hope to match everything to them.

The YMS I'm not sure about yet, I know it handled better at 50/50, but downforce could be a problem, they may have to be lighter.

 

[Dr_Watson]

The Z is very close to the GTR's in every way from what I can tell, but spins the wheels easier. This is somewhat helped at 1150KG.


I was actually using the Lexus as an example, IIRC people said it was slow, but the point I mean in "boosting" would be to most of these cars, whether by lowering the NSX (likely) or increasing them.
But the GTR (and Z) is good stock, so I hope to match everything to them.

The YMS I'm not sure about yet, I know it handled better at 50/50, but downforce could be a problem, they may have to be lighter.

I was thinking of hopping online and trying the cars out if you wan't some wheel-to-wheel testing.

 

[Denilson]

Yea, GT-R should be used as the yardstick for PURE JGTS specs cars. 👍

 

[Biffy]

Yeah I'd like to do some runs at Spa as well with the GT500's, room number?

And yeah I knew the Z was capable of winning races in WSGTC, but unfortunately I was crap at driving it, and tbh, I don't even want to go near it in this series

 

[CSLACR]

I was thinking of hopping online and trying the cars out if you wan't some wheel-to-wheel testing.

The more the merrier.👍

Yeah I'd like to do some runs at Spa as well with the GT500's, room number?

And yeah I knew the Z was capable of winning races in WSGTC, but unfortunately I was crap at driving it, and tbh, I don't even want to go near it in this series

I had a room for quite some time, but I eventually gave in, obviously I can't open one at Spa myself, but you can.

I'm taking a break for now, need to eat and nap before Integra race.

 

[Biffy]

The more the merrier.👍

I had a room for quite some time, but I eventually gave in, obviously I can't open one at Spa myself, but you can.

I'm taking a break for now, need to eat and nap before Integra race.

Actually I don't have it, thanks to the account-lock thingy

Nevermind though, in a public lounge now testing a few cars.

 

[paulmac2k9]

i can open a room for all of us but i have an integra race as csl said so it would only stay open till 8pmish (1hour away from now)

 

[CodeRedR51]

Hmmm....go ahead and put me on the 100% list.

 

[Denilson]

Hmmm....go ahead and put me on the 100% list.

Awesome!! Will do! 👍

 

[Dr_Watson]

Awesome!! Will do! 👍

looks like you forgot to move me up there too.

 

[Denilson]

looks like you forgot to move me up there too.

Sorted! 👍

Sorry for that.

We are at the moment 25 drivers commited to 100%.
In other words, we got 3 spots left to form 2 full grids with 14 teams and 28 drivers.

The drivers on the reserve/not 100% commited list will be assigned a "customer car". I.e a car that is not used by any of the 14 teams.
It will ofc be on par with the rest of the cars, but will not collect teampoints.

 

[CodeRedR51]

So do we get to pick cars? Or hows that going to work?

 

[Denilson]

So do we get to pick cars? Or hows that going to work?

So, how do we handle car selection?

Options:
1. Run a qualifier, 6 laps, no fuel/tire wear, same car (recommended garage).
2 best and 2 worst laps are removed. The middle 2 will be your total time.
Fastest driver chose first, and so on.

2. Everyone post their 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice, and the admins will sort out the cars as close to all wishes as possible.
(We did like this in WSGTC, and it was successful)

3. Get together with a team mate. Discuss among you guys witch car you want to race.
Post your 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice as a team.

4. Randomly assign cars. (There is web sites for this)

5. Any other alternative you guys can come up with, please post your idea. 👍

NOTE: We know that Stealth cars are not possesed by all.

We've pretty much decided to go with option 2.

 

[Joshua1994]

Sorry I haven't been posting, just had a thorough read through and caught up though.

IMHO, division should be ran just like they are in WSGTC now. Each driver can have their ups and downs each weeks, depending on which track and what not, as some of you guys stated. So to change that to having a 'knock-out' or the other suggestions, I don't think its very fair.

On the race schedule, is there a mistake or am I not understanding it correctly? The events which have two heats, why is the shorter race in need of a pit stop? Shouldn't that be the other way round? Also, if possible, I think Fuji should be added, simply for the fact that it's an official SGT track.

Time issues. So far, 6pm GMT works for me. Will have to see once the FMSC season starts, but I doubt it'll be a problem.

Car choice. Option 2 is by far the fairest, but IMO, car choice shouldn't be allowed until all cars have been re-tested and finalized, as to me, it is sort of jumping the gun on some other guys.

Oh and, probably will come across as a real stupid idea, but it could be pretty cool if somehow we got everyone to race within the cockpit. Just a thought!

Err, can't think of anything else from the top of my head, so I think thats it.

EDIT: Also, is there a reason why GT300 haven't been initiated within this series? Just trying to keep it 500? Too much work to be done with keeping both classes? Sorry if im sounding demanding too.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Oh and, probably will come across as a real stupid idea, but it could be pretty cool if somehow we got everyone to race within the cockpit. Just a thought!

I don't like this because that view is an advantage for some, and a huge disadvantage for others, including myself.

 

[Joshua1994]

I don't like this because that view is an advantage for some, and a huge disadvantage for others, including myself.

I'll agree, it is a disadvantage for me too, but it just seems like it'd be pretty legit, if this is all making sense. 👍

Oh, and racing in the rain, well yeah, nothing else to be said.. hahaha.

 

[Imari]

I don't like this because that view is an advantage for some, and a huge disadvantage for others, including myself.

I agree. Race from whatever view makes you most comfortable, and allows you the best feel for where your car is to avoid contact. For some that's cockpit, for others it's not. If you want to race from cockpit because you feel it's more realistic then that is up to you, whether other people are racing in cockpit view doesn't change your race at all.

I don't think anything about the series should be decided just because it's cool.

 

[Wardez]

I'll go ahead and get it started. Every one just post their preferred car in the following format -

First choice:
Calsonic GT-R

Second choice:
Stealth GT-R

Third choice:
Nismo Z

 

[CodeRedR51]

First choice:
Nissan YELLOWHAT YMS TOMICA GT-R

Second choice:
Nissan XANAVI NISMO GT-R

Third choice:
Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430