Questioning Religion

[Duke]

Just show me where you believe the bible contradicts itself.

http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/bible-a.htm

http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/ash-biblecontradictions.shtml

 

[Swift]

http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/bible-a.htm

http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/ash-biblecontradictions.shtml

Wow, I've never seen such scripture taking out of context in my life. The funny part is I think he was reading from the NIV bible. I go with the KJV which is a little harder to follow, but the words are a little closer to the original transaltion.

MAn, some of those things aren't even in the KJV. Like the thing with Genesis 1:19-21.

But seriously, if you'd like me to explain any of those things, scripturally, I will

 

[amp88]

I was baptised and had my confirmation as a catholic back in the day, but at the time I wasn't actually thinking about what I was doing and what it meant in the great scheme of things. I was doing it because everyone else at school was doing it and my parents wanted me to do it, so I didn't want to stick out or disappoint my parents. I was semi-forced to go to church every Saturday night until I was probably 13-14 (a little while after I did my confirmation, I don't remember how old I was), my mum would tell me I had to go. When I was in church I wasn't paying attention to anything, I wasn't listening to what the priest was saying or what any of the readings were about. When I went it was just a routine: go in, sit down, kneel down, stand, pretend to sing, sit down etc. I didn't learn anything (partly through choice and partly because my attention wasn't there) and looking back I think it was a waste of an hour and a half every week that I wasn't getting back.

I made the decision not to go, my dad couldn't care less because I don't think he's ever been to church when I've been alive (apart from funerals/weddings etc), my mum started off against it but soon realised she wasn't going to change my mind. My excuse at the time was "Well, if God's everywhere why do I have to go to church?"

Lately I've been thinking about religion a bit more and I've come to the decision that I'm totally scunnered (read: "had enough of" / "sick of") with all organised religions. Buddhism sounds sort of appealing, but I don't have a need for any kind of religion. Religion is the cause (or excuse) of wars and needless violence across the world. Millions of people have been persecuted because of their religous beliefs and for what? To be martyrs? What good is that when you're taken away from your family and friends? "Oh, but you'll see them in Heaven". Come on, seriously. I don't believe in Santa Claus and I don't believe in fairytails, so why should I believe there's this place up in the clouds where all the good people go? Anyway, how many people would realistically get into Heaven even if it did exist? How many people really lead good lives and don't break any rules or commit sins?

Then there are the people who believe the bible is a literal text and the earth is only 6000 years old. That evolution doesn't exist, that scientific evidence disproving their beliefs is false and a conspiracy against them. How do you even begin to reason with people like that?

I'm generally happy to let people believe and do what they want (as long as it doesn't affect me or my family), but I honestly don't see how anyone can believe in the things I mentioned in the above paragraph.

I suppose I seem a bit ignorant or childish to anyone reading this.

Just wanted my little rant at Easter.

 

[Poverty]

I was baptized but sure as hell dont belive there is a God. Even if jesus was to appear infront of me magically one day, Id probably want to beat him up for being such a evil bastard.

 

[Zrow]

I was baptized but sure as hell dont belive there is a God. Even if jesus was to appear infront of me magically one day, Id probably want to beat him up for being such a evil bastard.

You mean for helping people and promoting peace and stuff? Evil.

 

[Keef]

I think he was being sarcastic.

But if he wasn't, I'll support with this: Jesus looed just like the singer from Nickelback. I'd tell him to shave his beard.

 

[a6m5]

amp88: Most religious people belive in stuff like this:

You mean for helping people and promoting peace and stuff? Evil.

Maybe we should just do away with Bibles and replace it with "What Would Jesus Do?" bumper stickers. There will always be fools who will use the religion to oppress those that they don't like. With my idea, you can never go, "Jesus would start an army to kill the infidels!". See? No more a-holes taking advantage of religions. 👍

 

[Swift]

Maybe we should just do away with Bibles and replace it with "What Would Jesus Do?" bumper stickers. There will always be fools who will use the religion to oppress those that they don't like. With my idea, you can never go, "Jesus would start an army to kill the infidels!". See? No more a-holes taking advantage of religions. 👍

True, but without the bible, how would we know how Jesus acted.

Not that using the "what would Jesus do" is bad. Actually, it's a great way to help make decisions. But we have to know what he did before we can guess at would he would do.

But if he wasn't, I'll support with this: Jesus looed just like the singer from Nickelback. I'd tell him to shave his beard.

That image of Jesus is just from someone's imagination. We don't really know what his face looked like.

I was baptized but sure as hell dont belive there is a God. Even if jesus was to appear infront of me magically one day, Id probably want to beat him up for being such a evil bastard.

I really do hope that is sarcastic. Because if it's not, I'd love for you to show me where Jesus is evil.

 

[a6m5]

True, but without the bible, how would we know how Jesus acted.

Not that using the "what would Jesus do" is bad. Actually, it's a great way to help make decisions. But we have to know what he did before we can guess at would he would do.

I know. I was just making a point with a joke.

 

[Touring Mars]

It's not worthy of a separate thread, so I thought I'd stick it in here. We've covered the subject of 'miracles' and specifically 'medical miracles' elsewhere before, but I now find myself in a position where I am dealing with a situation first (well, second or third really) hand... a friend of mine, who is suffering from cancer, was recently taken back into hospital for a procedure and developed complications, upon which he was transferred to Intensive Care. IMO, rather ill-advisedly, the consultant at the time stated that, in order for him to live, he needed 'a miracle'... now, some two weeks later, he's back home and has even recovered enough to resume something like normality. But here's the problem - however brilliant this news is, and however much all of his friends are delighted by his recovery, I am finding myself having to bite my lip every time this 'miracle' is brought up in conversation... Of course, my friend's wife (who is a close friend also, and the reason I know this chap at all) is (IMO) perfectly entitled to call it whatever she wants, and I wouldn't be having this debate with her anyway (of course!), but there are other people who I know and respect who are insisting on describing this as a miracle... moreover, they seem to perceive my stance on the subject as being somehow negative (atleast that is the feeling I am getting...) It interests me (and slightly disturbs me too) that rationality and realism is often treated this way, especially when it is construed (almost always mistakenly) as pessimism.... my 'belief' (as it were) is that only by finding the rational explanation behind such an astonishing recovery will a useful purpose be served... ironically, by chalking it up merely as an inexplicable 'miracle', nothing of any use to man or beast in the future is gained...

 

[Famine]

I look at it this way - there's hundreds of "miraculous" things. It doesn't mean that God happened, just that the event was sufficiently strange to elicit emotive language.

Let's face it, moving over 2 thousand pounds of a mixture of metals, plastics and rubber, by way of hundreds of microscopic explosions caused by a burning liquid making something spin is pretty damn miraculous - and something nearly everyone would struggle to describe or understand. Doesn't mean that God makes cars.

 

[ledhed]

Infidels and heretics the lot of you .

 

[Duke]

It interests me (and slightly disturbs me too) that rationality and realism is often treated this way, especially when it is construed (almost always mistakenly) as pessimism.... my 'belief' (as it were) is that only by finding the rational explanation behind such an astonishing recovery will a useful purpose be served... ironically, by chalking it up merely as an inexplicable 'miracle', nothing of any use to man or beast in the future is gained...

I've heard it said numerous times that "there are no atheists in a foxhole."

Times of dire emotional stress are when some people fall back on mysticism/religion, which is of course based entirely on emotion. These things arise from the inability to understand, rationally, the world or the events that occur within it (and I'm even leaving out the irrational actions of other human beings as "events").

Your friend's husband was gravely ill. She knows 'why', but because she's not a doctor, she doesn't know why. She's powerless to control the situation, because she's not a doctor (and even doctors are not all-powerful). So she is doubly stressed by the situation. She conciously or subconciously falls back to mysticism for comfort (something will make it all be OK, even if she can't), and when it is all OK, that something gets the credit in her heart of hearts. So it gets called a "miracle", even though it was a combination of circumstances, hard work, and highly specialized knowledge that made the recovery possible.

 

[FoolKiller]

TM, just do what I do in these instances: Say to yourself, "whatever makes them feel better."

It's like when my wife's grandfather died and after the funeral the family was at his house with his wife when a crane landed outside the window. One person said it was him letting them know that he was okay and everyone latched on to that idea. I almost laughed out loud. I knew this was ridiculous, especially considering that there are three bodies of water within walking distance of the house, but I kept my thoughts to myself and decided whatever made them feel better worked for the best.

So, whenever I hear of things like this I just take that approach and let them be happier. Trying to convince a cancer-ridden friend that there is no God would only serve to depress them for what time is left.

I am positive that there are scientists out there somewhere working to discover the nature of medical miracles after they have let the patients go home to rejoice in the "gift they received from God." And there is nothing to be discovered if the emotional response to seeing people pray for a miracle for them creates a physiological response in the body. Doctors know what the body needs to do to fight back and are already giving patients all the possible medical treatments to urge those same responses, but sometimes mental or emotional triggers can be stronger.

Of course, it could be a real miracle and all your beliefs are wrong so what can you do then?


By the way, I am sorry to hear about your friend, I know that can be a hard thing to witness.

 

[Kylehnat]

We don't know how cancer starts, or why, but we all accept it. When the reverse happens, it's suddenly a "miracle" that defies explaination? If remission is a miracle (act of God), does that mean that getting cancer is a curse (act of Satan)? Sure God "saves" a person here and there, but why does he let a 10 year-old child succumb to lukemia? Or a mother of three young children to thyroid cancer? All believe in Him, and pray to Him. Does He only have time for one miracle a week? The above examples are from my own life, and people I knew. If I were a man of faith, those two events would have me seriously questioning it.

People are free to believe what they want, of course, but sometimes it goes a little too far. When doctors say that it will take a "miracle" to cure a patient, they don't mean it literally. They're saying that there is a very small chance of survival, and there's really no way to successfully treat the disease.

One of my friends told me that it was a "miracle" that she made it to college. I asked why, and she detailed a rough ride through childhood/adolescence, but to me, it seemed like she made it to college through her own hard work and perseverence. I told her this, and she would have none of it. It was an act of God, pure and simple. Okay, whatever.

 

[Famine]

We don't know how cancer starts, or why,

Well, some of us do...

With regards to the rest of your post, it was amusing watching the World Cup, how many players crossed themselves or looked heavenward when something good happened for their team, but oddly not when something bad happened. It was even more amusing seeing opposing players doing it. One thanked God/Allah for the gift of scoring a goal, and then another guy on the other team did the exact same thing for the gift of scoring his goal. They can't both have been acts of God, unless they were both acts of God, and both equally deserving of equal holy-signage from both teams...

 

[Touring Mars]

Well, some of us do...

With regards to the rest of your post, it was amusing watching the World Cup, how many players crossed themselves or looked heavenward when something good happened for their team, but oddly not when something bad happened. It was even more amusing seeing opposing players doing it. One thanked God/Allah for the gift of scoring a goal, and then another guy on the other team did the exact same thing for the gift of scoring his goal. They can't both have been acts of God, unless they were both acts of God, and both equally deserving of equal holy-signage from both teams...

Saudi Arabia v Tunisia, perchance? This exact thing occured to me during that match...

 

[Sage]

In similar vein, whenever there’s a wildfire that destroys a number of houses around here, the people whose houses were saved will often say that it was God’s working. Does that mean God didn’t care about the people whose houses were destroyed?

One more thing that’s bothered me: why are “good” christians afraid of death? If I did everything that the Bible told me to do and brought Jesus into my life etc. etc., I wouldn’t bother putting on my seatbelt or anything like that – why would I have to worry?

We don't know how cancer starts, or why

Mutations in the genes that control cell division. Simple as that.

 

[Kylehnat]

Well, some of us do...

Mutations in the genes that control cell division. Simple as that.

Oh, smart-alecks, the lot of you...

My point was that it is impossible to "predict" cancer, in the sense that it is not clear what triggers it and what doesn't (besides genetic predisposition). Two smokers each smoke 2 packs a day. One dies of lung cancer at age 45, and the other lives to be 95. The cause and severity of cancer is not as easy to pinpoint as say, chickenpox, when one kid with chickenpox licks several children who don't.

 

[Swift]

One more thing that’s bothered me: why are “good” christians afraid of death? If I did everything that the Bible told me to do and brought Jesus into my life etc. etc., I wouldn’t bother putting on my seatbelt or anything like that – why would I have to worry?

Being afraid of dying and protecting yourself from death are two different things. First off, wearing your seatbelt is a law in most states. But it's just smart. It's really quite simple, you don't tempt God.

Luke 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

Luke 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

Luke 4:11 And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Now if Jesus is the Son of God and he knows not to tempt God, how much more should Christians?

 

[Sage]

[Before anybody gets confused: This is the archaic definition of “tempt”, meaning to provoke a deity with unfortunate consequences.]

I don’t really see why that (leaving off a seatbelt) would tempt God. Would God be pissed off at me if I accidently fell off a cliff, due to carelessness? If yes – does God thus hate stupidity or people who lose their balance easily? If no – then why would God be pissed off if I carelessly left my seatbelt off?

What about daredevil-stunt-people: Are they tempting God when they pull off possibly deadly acts? When an old man balances on two legs of a chair at the edge of the Empire State building (saw it on Ripley’s), is he pissing off God?

One could reason that if we don’t put on our seatbelt, we are tempting God because we are increasing our chances of death. Thus, by simply getting into a car, we are tempting God, because we are increasing our chances of death (you’re more likely to die in a car than, say, an airplane). So am I tempting God everytime I get into my car? Do I really get on his (her?) nerves when I speed?

 

[Swift]

Tempting God is when you knowingly put yourself in an unnecceassry risk. Driving, in today's society and in my community is needed. Driving recklessly because it's fun is not.

All the things that you mentioned are tempting God because they are risks for the sake of risks.

 

[Sage]

So you’re basically saying that the old guy was pissing off God? What about when Travis Pastrana did his double backflip at the X-Games? Before he did it, he even said that if he missed the first mound, he would probably die. Interestingly (in the context of this conversation), his mother promptly thanked God after he completed the trick.

Driving recklessly because it's fun is not.

But what is reckless? If I speed, is that reckless? Where does God draw the line? Does he do it the way the California Highway Patrol does it: 5 mph over is okay, but no more than that? Does God hate it when people do 80 mph on the freeway?

Speaking of all that, I just got another idea: What does God think of racecar drivers? When you’re in a racecar, you’re putting your life on the line, and it’s definitely 100% unnecessary. A racecar driver goes into his car, knowing that his life will be in danger on every lap, and knowing that he’s not doing it because it’s necessary, but because he simply wants to and likes it.

So, does God get pissed off when He sees a NASCAR or ALMS or F1 race? Would God rather that we all just stick to GT4 and ban real-life autoracing altogether?

Sorry I’m throwing all these questions at you, but I’m genuinely curious.

 

[FoolKiller]

So you’re basically saying that the old guy was pissing off God? What about when Travis Pastrana did his double backflip at the X-Games? Before he did it, he even said that if he missed the first mound, he would probably die. Interestingly (in the context of this conversation), his mother promptly thanked God after he completed the trick.


But what is reckless? If I speed, is that reckless? Where does God draw the line? Does he do it the way the California Highway Patrol does it: 5 mph over is okay, but no more than that? Does God hate it when people do 80 mph on the freeway?

Speaking of all that, I just got another idea: What does God think of racecar drivers? When you’re in a racecar, you’re putting your life on the line, and it’s definitely 100% unnecessary. A racecar driver goes into his car, knowing that his life will be in danger on every lap, and knowing that he’s not doing it because it’s necessary, but because he simply wants to and likes it.

So, does God get pissed off when He sees a NASCAR or ALMS or F1 race? Would God rather that we all just stick to GT4 and ban real-life autoracing altogether?

Sorry I’m throwing all these questions at you, but I’m genuinely curious.

Um, there is a difference between doing that and throwing yourself off a cliff or picking up a rattlesnake to prove that God will protect you.

No one drives a race car with the intent of proving that God protects them. If you got in a car to drive down a curvy mountain road without brakes to show how much God loves you then I imagine that might get him a slight bit miffed.

There is an obvious difference here and I think you are just trying to tempt Swift's patience.

 

[DLRgian]

There is a difference between a controlled enviroment and the normal world. If you do 300kph on the road and spin, chances are that your going to die.

Racetracks have run off area plus gravel pits and tirewalls. Roads have barriers and oncoming traffic.

 

[Sage]

Um, there is a difference between doing that and throwing yourself off a cliff or picking up a rattlesnake to prove that God will protect you.

No one drives a race car with the intent of proving that God protects them. If you got in a car to drive down a curvy mountain road without brakes to show how much God loves you then I imagine that might get him a slight bit miffed.

There is an obvious difference here and I think you are just trying to tempt Swift's patience.

Negative – I’m genuinely curious, because this is something I haven’t heard before. Swift said that the man who performed the balancing act on top of the Empire State Building was tempting God. Swift also clearly stated this: Tempting God is when you knowingly put yourself in an unnecceassry risk. Logically, racing a racecar is putting oneself at an unnecessary risk, and drivers do it knowingly. I spoke nothing of whether or not God would “protect” them; my point was whether or not God would be angry at them for taking “an unnecessary risk”.

Let’s put it this way: when the man did his balancing act, he didn’t do it because he wanted to prove that God would protect him – he did it because he wanted to take the risk. Swift said that that is tempting God. When a racecar driver does his thing, he doesn’t do it because he wants to prove that God will protect him – he does it because he likes taking the risk. Logically, one must deduce that if the balancing act is not okay with God, then racing must not be okay either. That’s what I’m trying to clear up.

 

[Swift]

Sage, you're splitting hairs. I can understand where you're coming from, but honestly you can say that almost everything is an uneccassary risk. Outside of eating and sleeping. Is driving a race car more of a risk then driving a regular car? By statistics, nope. Racecars have a radical amount of safety features. What did the guy doing the balancing act have? The pavement?

Honestly, this is going to get stupid really quick if we have to look at every "risk" and see if it is needed or not.

 

[Sage]

But you see, that’s the exact point I’m trying to make – where does God draw the line? If everything can be considered an unnecessary risk, then how do you know what does or doesn’t piss God off?

 

[Swift]

But you see, that’s the exact point I’m trying to make – where does God draw the line? If everything can be considered an unnecessary risk, then how do you know what does or doesn’t piss God off?

Would Jesus do it?

 

[a6m5]

Would Jesus do it?

Now, you jump on my bandwagon! This is a joke too.