Real Guns

[a6m5]

I wouldn't fall back on the NRA for this. Its the ammo manufacturer's fault, don't let them tell you anything different without sending them the ruptured casing and whatever else they request.

I agree. Like I said, it would be the last resort.

 

[Eric.]

Range report:

Took both Glocks out today. Goal was to put a couple hundred rounds through the G27 for reliability testing, and work on groups with both. Also joined "The GreenTip Connection" Facebook Group and they had a challenge to post a video shooting at a 10yd target. 5 rounds, reload, 5 rounds on same target, in under 15 seconds. So I did that, too.

Link to video on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/biggs.eric/videos/1140197166005938/

Target:

So I'm decent with the fullsize (G22) during slow fire. Not great when it gets faster but I did get 9/10 on paper there so could be worse. Reload speed kind of surprised me.

I can't hit 🤬 with the G27. It has a heavier trigger so I think I'm pulling down and right badly. Definitely going to need work on that, whether its me, the gun, or both.

Both worked flawlessly though. I brought around 300 rounds with me and came home with maybe 20. No failures of any sort...typical Glock.

 

[a6m5]

My first handgun was a Glock 17. Never failed, except I think it had one failure to eject, and a misfire on a dud ammunition?(it's been awhile, but all very minor stuff). My next handgun very well could be another Glock.

Update on my hand grenade: I'm seeing a gunsmith after work tomorrow. I was telling the guys at work where I got the ammo(shop owner used to be VP at my work), and one of the guys knew the gunsmith there really well, so he just called him up on the spot, and they invited me to bring the USP & ammo in. Is it USPs? Like plural?

Anywho, not surprisingly, I have not received any reply from the ammunition manufacturer. Guy at work was telling me not to trust them, and they will refuse to help. We'll see.

Edit: I did have a email from the manufacturer in my spam folder, so that's my bad. They are asking for all the info, contact info + guns & ammo involved to be sent to their location.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Looking at the pictures, is it possible that the hammer fell on the primer when the round wasn't full seated in the chamber? Essentially, I wonder if it's possible for a round to cook off when the gun isn't in battery.

 

[a6m5]

Looking at the pictures, is it possible that the hammer fell on the primer when the round wasn't full seated in the chamber? Essentially, I wonder if it's possible for a round to cook off when the gun isn't in battery.

Took me a second to understand what you were saying, but I think you are pointing out the fact that the cracked open casing is visible through the opening?

I definitely see where you are coming from. I didn't see anything wrong with the chamber being cracked open, but maybe I should have. With my limited understanding, I have no idea, but I'll definitely bring it up with the gunsmith tomorrow. 👍

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Took me a second to understand what you were saying, but I think you are pointing out the fact that the cracked open casing is visible through the opening?

I definitely see where you are coming from. I didn't see anything wrong with the chamber being cracked open, but maybe I should have. With my limited understanding, I have no idea, but I'll definitely bring it up with the gunsmith tomorrow. 👍

Yeah. I just don't see how it could so violently disintegrate if the round was seated properly and the slide was in battery and locked.

You aren't the first it seems...



Seems like a remarkably similar failure.

 

[Eric.]

That's what a pistol barrel with a round chambered looks like. I'm not putting that in the slide but I think the amount of case you're seeing is not abnormal. Semi auto pistols usually have what's called an unsupported chamber, that's what this is.

Edit: So when there is excessive pressure, the unsupported area is what's going to blow out.

 

[a6m5]

I have read little bit about these "unsupported chamber", but I didn't fully understand. Who am I kidding, I don't fully understand the details on how these chambers seal during firing at all. Thanks both for bringing up interesting info. 👍

Seems like a remarkably similar failure.

Very first result on my google search that night. I actually put the video up on my post, too.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

That's what a pistol barrel with a round chambered looks like. I'm not putting that in the slide but I think the amount of case you're seeing is not abnormal. Semi auto pistols usually have what's called an unsupported chamber, that's what this is.

Edit: So when there is excessive pressure, the unsupported area is what's going to blow out.

Oh wow, I didn't know that. My auto experience is limited to my CZ52s which have a rather unorthodox roller-delay-blowback action and I believe a fully supported chamber due to the high pressure of the Tokarav round. I have to ask, why do they have an unsupported chamber? If the brass fails, the gun will fail, seems like a dangerous way to design a pistol.

 

[Eric.]

From my understanding, the majority of semi autos have it because it will feed more reliably. I was researching this the other night because it seems to be a bit of a myth that Glock's in particular have an unsupported chamber, but it seems like many manufacturers do and that perhaps Glock's used to be less supported than they are now. That was sort of the fuel for saying that Glocks are grenades.

 

[a6m5]

Oh wow, I didn't know that. My auto experience is limited to my CZ52s which have a rather unorthodox roller-delay-blowback action and I believe a fully supported chamber due to the high pressure of the Tokarav round. I have to ask, why do they have an unsupported chamber? If the brass fails, the gun will fail, seems like a dangerous way to design a pistol.

I think I read something about more reliable feed?
Tree'd:

From my understanding, the majority of semi autos have it because it will feed more reliably. I was researching this the other night because it seems to be a bit of a myth that Glock's in particular have an unsupported chamber, but it seems like many manufacturers do and that perhaps Glock's used to be less supported than they are now. That was sort of the fuel for saying that Glocks are grenades.

That's what I read, too.

 

[Eric.]

This could still be an Out Of Battery discharge. That is where the round would blow out. I'm not really sure how you would tell at this point. Maybe comparing the ruptured case with your other spent brass and see if you can tell how far it was in the chamber.

 

[a6m5]

This could still be an Out Of Battery discharge. That is where the round would blow out. I'm not really sure how you would tell at this point. Maybe comparing the ruptured case with your other spent brass and see if you can tell how far it was in the chamber.

It's jammed stuck, both the chamber & the empty case inside. I will bring it up tomorrow to the gunsmith, and see what he says. 👍

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I've been thinking about picking up a .357 mag revolver. Anyone have one and care to share experience/ownership details?

 

[Eric.]

Just don't get a Taurus. Go Ruger or S&W. I was reading about the Ruger LCR in 357 a couple nights ago and how great it is to shoot, with a really good trigger and surprisingly good recoil characteristics.

 

[phillgt2002]

I wonder what the effectiveness of this pistol is like.. Probably horrific.

 

[Eric.]

Hmmm. I thought they had to make those triggers independent and only fire one barrel. Multiple rounds fire per trigger function == machine gun.

 

[a6m5]

That is a thing of beauty. 👍

My Update: I mistyped when I said that ammunition manufacturer wanted the gun & ammo. They wanted pictures of the gun, and wanted to have the remaining ammo shipped back to them for testing.

Gunsmith - Rescheduled for tomorrow after work. Ammunition Manufacturer - Called their agent twice, got his voicemail twice. He has not returned my calls, or have I received any emails from him since the first contact.

 

[Michael88]

I wonder what the effectiveness of this pistol is like.. Probably horrific.

Its very silly. It does not make hitting your target any easier, if you miss you miss twice. If you hit, you hit with two bullets, but since they'll impact at pretty much the same spot they won't increase stopping power. Also twice the pistol twice the odds of mechanical failure plus twice the recoil. Oh, and tons of weight.
All it does is wasting your money twice as fast, or in a6m5's case, increasing the odds of blowing up by the factor 2.


If you want a handgun with multiple barrels which actually increase your chances of hitting your target you need a so called ''duckfoot'' boarding gun.

 

[a6m5]

or in a6m5's case, increasing the odds of blowing up by the factor 2.

TOO SOON!!!!

 

[Brett]

All it does is wasting your money twice as fast, or in a6m5's case, increasing the odds of blowing up by the factor 2.

👍

TOO SOON!!!!

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Its very silly. It does not make hitting your target any easier, if you miss you miss twice. If you hit, you hit with two bullets, but since they'll impact at pretty much the same spot they won't increase stopping power. Also twice the pistol twice the odds of mechanical failure plus twice the recoil. Oh, and tons of weight.

Shotguns have a lot of stopping power.

 

[Michael88]

Shotguns have a lot of stopping power.

Apples to oranges comparison. Shotgun pellets behave very differently than two expanding pistol rounds.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Apples to oranges comparison. Shotgun pellets behave very differently than two expanding pistol rounds.

I mean the high speed camera shows the bullets about an inch or two apart. Two .45 caliber bullets hitting an inch or two apart would stop just about anything.

 

[Michael88]

I mean the high speed camera shows the bullets about an inch or two apart. Two .45 caliber bullets hitting an inch or two apart would stop just about anything.

A well placed .45 ACP should stop just about anything in a SD scenario, shot placement is the key, not the amount of bullets dumped into roughly the same spot. If you can't stop the target with a well placed .45 shooting twice as many bullets per trigger pull won't help you either because that means you're either a lousy shot or the target is so tough you need a more powerful round with more penetration.

The main problem with SD is and has always been shot placement, you cannot make up shot placement with shooting twice as many bullets simultaneously, or shooting a super powerful magnum round. Two 45's into someones belly isn't going to have the same effects as a .32 ACP hitting someones heart.
Take a service pistol no matter the caliber, 9mm, .40, 45 or what have you and learn to hit under stress, that will do the trick.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

A well placed .45 ACP should stop just about anything in a SD scenario, shot placement is the key, not the amount of bullets dumped into roughly the same spot. If you can't stop the target with a well placed .45 shooting twice as many bullets per trigger pull won't help you either because that means you're either a lousy shot or the target is so tough you need a more powerful round with more penetration.

The main problem with SD is and has always been shot placement, you cannot make up shot placement with shooting twice as many bullets simultaneously, or shooting a super powerful magnum round. Two 45's into someones belly isn't going to have the same effects as a .32 ACP hitting someones heart.
Take a service pistol no matter the caliber, 9mm, .40, 45 or what have you and learn to hit under stress, that will do the trick.

Two .45s's in the chest will have more stopping power than one .45 in the chest.

 

[Blood Eagle]

Next person to say stopping power is getting pistol whipped.

 

[Michael88]

Two .45s's in the chest will have more stopping power than one .45 in the chest.

Good shot placement has the most stopping power and makes the question about caliber rather unimportant.

And two 45's hitting half an inch apart hitting the chest nearly sharing the same wound channel =/= two individual 45's hit in the chest.

 

[a6m5]

Well guys, still nowhere near any answers or resolution, but some movement on my situation today.

H&K: I emailed them last night, I already had reply in my mail box. Not surprisingly, they say that it was ammo failure. I replied asking because of excessive charge, or case failure? Their reply, and I am going to quote them: "It is very possible." wut? They also mention that once we get the pistol there, they'll be able to tell more, but I am given no information on how this is supposed to happen. wut?

Don't get me wrong, I'm very pleased with how quick they are replying my messages, but other than going "it was the ammo", sadly, expectedly, I am receiving no assistance from them. I'm not upset, because personally, I still feel that it was the ammo.

Ammunition Maker: They are stepping up, setting up a call tag to ship the ammunition back to them. They asked if I could get the shell in question loose from the chamber(answer below in "gunsmith"). They are deciding if they should call tag the whole slide also.

Gunsmith(s): They came up with few theories, but in the end, nobody there could say for sure. What really would have helped was if they had another .45 USP to compare mine to, but unfortunately they did not.

I was hoping for "oh, yeah, that's definitely ammo", but they really couldn't say what happened, or how it happened without having undamged USP to compare it with. One guy did try to loosen the chamber/barrel, also the casing stuck inside, but he says that it's like they are welded together.

-End Update-

Next person to say stopping power is getting pistol whipped.

I. CAN'T!!!!! I can maybe throw the pieces at them.

 

[Michael88]

Gunsmith(s): They came up with few theories, but in the end, nobody there could say for sure. What really would have helped was if they had another .45 USP to compare mine to, but unfortunately they did not.

I was hoping for "oh, yeah, that's definitely ammo", but they really couldn't say what happened, or how it happened without having undamged USP to compare it with. One guy did try to loosen the chamber/barrel, also the casing stuck inside, but he says that it's like they are welded together.

Again, I'm not a gunsmith but pressure - not caused by a barrel obstruction- that is so excessive that expands the chamber and effectively welds slide and barrel together sounds a lot like overpressure to me. Anything else would have led to relatively harmless gas vent into the frame, can't think of anything else that could have caused this.

Also the response of H&K sounds like the answer of a politician, lots of words but in the end their meaning is completely open to interpretation.


Keep us posted!




Anyway, a friend of mine shot a hard drive with his 1911 .45 FMJ and to our surprise it only dented it, 4 shots not a single one penetrated it. My claim that the 22 could beat the 45 and penetrate it ended in a bet. I did my 4 shots (10 meters, 22lr sub sonics) and one penetrated it.
I bet (Yes, another bet) that if I had high velocity ammo all of the shots would have penetrated it since all of them were extremely close on making it through.

Also note the beautifully expanded 22lr stuck in the metal at 11'o clock. (The hole in the middle was caused by a 12 gauge slug)