RIDOX Replica Garage-In Memory of TurnLeft-GT40,300ZX,F430,TVR,AEM S2000,Cizeta,TransAm Doug Nash

[Pete05]

@Ridox2JZGTE

Hey bud, nice to see I'm still relevant around here! Haha, thank you sir!

If I can lend my Fairlady Z knowledge to anyone here, I'd be more than welcome to. I also have a lot of Motorsport experience - if it serves to act as any help around here...

Cheers!

That's one crazy looking L28 with the triple Webers hanging off the manifold.
I know from experience you'll need bucket loads of patience tuning them up to all run together in unison. It certainly pays off when they do though

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Hey Ridox, finally I got round to trying your GT-R GT3. Using the hard springs and low preload LSD I took it to Brands Hatch. What can I say man...you completely dialed out the nasty tendencies of the stock car. No more entry understeer, no more snap oversteer on power. It's smooth as silk 👍 I also tried the softer springs and high preload, and it doesn't feel as good in my opinion. Oddly it makes it more like the car in the GTS build that I played. More lift off oversteer and more prone to the rear breaking loose under power. With GT6's physics it's not as bad though.

Compared to AC the general behaviour is similar. There's just too much grip overall in GT6 though and the brakes are wayyyy too good (similar case as with the Aventador). Maybe switching to SS tyres and reducing the brake balance will make it closer.

I'm curious though, with the softer springs setup your camber is lower? I thought softening springs usually need more camber because the car rolls more?

Also tried your Civic Mugen RR (stock & advanced concept). Crazy damper settings aside, it handles really well for an FF. If you don't know any better you would have thought it's 4WD with the way it puts power down and goes round corners. Really fun car to drive 👍 One of my friends actually had the RR a long time ago, but he sold it for a GT-R I would've kept the RR even though it's slower just because it's more rare.

Would you mind explaining the rationale behind the damper settings though? I can understand the low front compression and high rear extension to induce entry oversteer, but the low rear comp and high front ext still boggles my mind. Wouldn't that normally create understeer on exit?

 

[TheCrazySwede]

That's one crazy looking L28 with the triple Webers hanging off the manifold.
I know from experience you'll need bucket loads of patience tuning them up to all run together in unison. It certainly pays off when they do though

Thanks bud!

Yea, tuning three side draft carburetors can be a real PITA, but boy is it worth it. i wasn't a huge fan of the Webers - very poorly designed and lacked a lot of the finer tuning needed for a crazy build like mine. I ended up keeping everything under the umbrella of the red-rising sun by getting OER/SK Racing Carbs straight from a garage in Japan. My Z is built the Japanese way - no ROSS Pistons and Schneider camshafts - all the parts that make up the motor are Japanese built and shipped straight from the land of the rising sun. The result is something quite extraordinary. Wasn't cheap, though; Kameari parts really do a number on your wallet!

 

[Pete05]

Thanks bud!

Yea, tuning three side draft carburetors can be a real PITA, but boy is it worth it. i wasn't a huge fan of the Webers - very poorly designed and lacked a lot of the finer tuning needed for a crazy build like mine. I ended up keeping everything under the umbrella of the red-rising sun by getting OER/SK Racing Carbs straight from a garage in Japan. My Z is built the Japanese way - no ROSS Pistons and Schneider camshafts - all the parts that make up the motor are Japanese built and shipped straight from the land of the rising sun. The result is something quite extraordinary. Wasn't cheap, though; Kameari parts really do a number on your wallet!

What size are those carbs?

 

[TheCrazySwede]

What size are those carbs?

The ones I run are 45's. The Japanese carbs do go up to 50, but the 45's with proper tuning will deliver more low end torque vs the high end HP of the 50's.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Hey Ridox, finally I got round to trying your GT-R GT3. Using the hard springs and low preload LSD I took it to Brands Hatch. What can I say man...you completely dialed out the nasty tendencies of the stock car. No more entry understeer, no more snap oversteer on power. It's smooth as silk 👍 I also tried the softer springs and high preload, and it doesn't feel as good in my opinion. Oddly it makes it more like the car in the GTS build that I played. More lift off oversteer and more prone to the rear breaking loose under power. With GT6's physics it's not as bad though.

Compared to AC the general behaviour is similar. There's just too much grip overall in GT6 though and the brakes are wayyyy too good (similar case as with the Aventador). Maybe switching to SS tyres and reducing the brake balance will make it closer.

I'm curious though, with the softer springs setup your camber is lower? I thought softening springs usually need more camber because the car rolls more?

Also tried your Civic Mugen RR (stock & advanced concept). Crazy damper settings aside, it handles really well for an FF. If you don't know any better you would have thought it's 4WD with the way it puts power down and goes round corners. Really fun car to drive 👍 One of my friends actually had the RR a long time ago, but he sold it for a GT-R I would've kept the RR even though it's slower just because it's more rare.

Would you mind explaining the rationale behind the damper settings though? I can understand the low front compression and high rear extension to induce entry oversteer, but the low rear comp and high front ext still boggles my mind. Wouldn't that normally create understeer on exit?

The GTR GT3 soft springs induce more weight transfer, which is why more prone to oversteer, while the camber being lower, a car with high aero grip and softer springs will roll more, and cause more dynamic camber changes as result due to the added suspension movement/travel during acceleration/braking and cornering. I reduced the camber as the car will dive/squat more, leans more when pushed hard. GT6 do simulate dynamic camber changes and visually can be seen as well.
Often cars with stiff springs also may still run with high camber, it depends a lot on how much grip the tire have, and the motion ratio of the suspension or the actual wheel rate ( this is real life though )

Glad the Mugen drives well, your friend should have kept the RR The damper for the Civic, yeah keep in mind the numbers are not representative of the damper strength, 1 can still be more than enough, while 10 can still too low For the low rear compression and high front extension, the front extension is set at 10 to keep the nose down on acceleration, meaning the front tires will keep more traction on exit - remember that I also set the front compression to lowest. On FWD in GT6, it's easily felt if you use high front extension on front heavy car ( about 60% on front axle ), most players/tuners tend to use ballast and move it rearward, thus often do no feel this effect easily.
For rear compression, with the nose more planted during acceleration, I set the rear on lowest to keep things balanced and to smooth the reaction from stiffer rear roll bar. You can try increase rear compression and see what happens, try 5 or 7

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Nissan Fairlady 370Z Z34 Version NISMO 2009/2010

Tuned to replicate Nissan 370Z NISMO
Comfort Soft​

View attachment 355259
​

CAR : Nissan Fairlady 370Z (Z34) '08
Tire : Comfort Soft

Specs Car & Driver 2009 NISMO 370Z Test BASE ( Sports Ex+Cat )
Horsepower: 350 HP at 7200 RPM
Torque: 277.4 ft-lb at 5500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 98.6%
Weight: 1515 kg
Ballast : 154 kg
Ballast Position : -19
Weight Distribution : 54 / 46 - to real life spec NISMO 370Z test 54.5 / 45.5
Performance Points: 469

Specs Car & Driver 2009 NISMO 370Z Test BASE ver2 ( Sports Ex+Cat )
( 370Z Touring Weight Distribution )
Horsepower: 350 HP at 7200 RPM
Torque: 277.4 ft-lb at 5500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 98.6%
Weight: 1515 kg
Ballast : 154 kg
Ballast Position : -46
Weight Distribution : 56 / 44 - to real life spec 370Z Touring 56.0 / 44.0
Performance Points: 469

Specs Car & Driver 2009 NISMO 370Z Test -ALTERNATE Power Upgrade
SEMI RACING EXHAUST ONLY
Horsepower: 350 HP at 7400 RPM
Torque: 277.4 ft-lb at 5400 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.9% ( USE ONLY SEMI RACING EXHAUST )
Performance Points: 469

Specs Car & Driver 2009 NISMO 370Z Test -ALTERNATE Power Upgrade
INTAKE TUNING ONLY
Horsepower: 350 HP at 7200 RPM
Torque: 285.5 ft-lb at 5200 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.8% ( USE ONLY INTAKE TUNING )
Performance Points: 470




GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Rear Wing : Special Wing Type A
Aero Kits : Type A
Wheels : Standard Size Stock or PDI P525 or ENKEI RS05RR or ENKEI RPF1 or ENKEI RP03 in Black
Car Paint : Ultimate Metal Silver (4M)

Tuning Parts Installed :
Sports Exhaust
Catalytic Converter Sports
Semi Racing Exhaust - ONLY FOR Alternate Spec, do not use sports exhaust or catalytic converter sports
Intake Tuning - ONLY FOR Alternate Spec, do not use sports exhaust or catalytic converter sports
Adjustable LSD
Fully Customizable Suspension
Weight Reduction Stage 1

View attachment 355258​

Suspension - Nissan NISMO OEM Springs/Damper - BASE
Nissan OEM Alignment
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 114 114
Spring Rate: 8.06 9.08
Dampers (Compression): 4 7
Dampers (Extension): 2 4
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 3
Camber Angle: 1.4 2.1
Toe Angle: 0.11 0.21

Suspension - Nissan NISMO OEM Springs/Damper - OPTIONAL Roehrig Tested Rate
Nissan OEM Alignment
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 114 114
Spring Rate: 8.6 9.3
Dampers (Compression): 4 7
Dampers (Extension): 2 4
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 3
Camber Angle: 1.4 2.1
Toe Angle: 0.11 0.21

NISSAN 370Z OEM Alignment Range :
Camber
Front Range : (+)0.41 to -0.67 to -1.41
Rear Range : -1.17 to -1.67 to -2.16
Toe
Front Range : 0.06 to 0.11 to 0.17
Rear Range : 0.11 to 0.22 to 0.33




LSD NISSAN VLSD ( Viscous LSD ) Base
OEM Fitment for NISMO 370Z
Rear
Initial Torque : 24
Acceleration Sensitivity: 12
Braking Sensitivity: 5

LSD 1.5 Way NISMO GT LSD
Optional
Rear
Initial Torque : 14
Acceleration Sensitivity: 36
Braking Sensitivity: 5

View attachment 355257​

Brake Balance:
6/6 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 4/4, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.


Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 6/6 brake balance as starting point.


Notes :

The NISMO Fairlady Z34 370Z is the high performance version offered by NISMO. Here is a summary of the changes :

"The 370Z Nismo has several modifications to make it faster. The engine produces 350 hp (260 kW) at 7,400 RPM and 276 lb·ft (374 N·m) at 5,200 RPM with revised ECU settings and exhaust setup. It uses the 6-speed manual transmission with Nissan's SynchroRev Match feature, as well a viscous limited-slip differential, lightweight Rays forged aluminum wheels with P245/40YR19 front and P285/35YR19 rear tires, bigger brakes (14.0-inch front rotors, 13.8-inch rear), Nismo front strut brace, and firmer shocks, springs and stabilizer bars. The exterior gets a special nose with an integrated chin spoiler, side sills, a unique rear bumper, and a taller rear spoiler. Inside, there are Nismo logos on the seats, which feature black and red fabric with red stitching, a Nismo tachometer, red stitching on the steering wheel, a leather-wrapped shift knob, aluminum pedals and a serialized plaque of authenticity."

For power, the replica uses several path to reach the target power at 350HP and torque as close to 277 I have provided several options, from sports exhaust+cat, intake tuning only or semi racing exhaust only. Weight and distribution and power for the base setup uses Car & Driver 2009 Nismo 370Z Test Data Report, with 1515kg and 54.5/45.5 distribution. The Touring 370Z Test data weight distribution also included as option at 56/44.

Suspension uses OEM Nissan NISMO spring rate at
FRONT OEM Linear 79 N/mm / 8.06 kg/mm
REAR OEM Linear 89 N/mm / 9.08 kg/mm

These are claimed official OEM rate, while when tested on Roehrig tester, the actual rate are 8.60 kg/mm and 9.30 kg/mm. I included these as optional.

The rate can be replicated in GT6, with damper and ARB tuned to give the NISMO 370Z more response handling than the base 370Z. The Fairlady 370Z Nissan OEM alignment has also been used.
Gear ratio is correct this time, and LSD has been set with NISSAN VLSD, standard fitment on NISMO 370Z. This gives very good balance of traction and handling. While the other is the aggressive NISMO GT LSD with low preload and good locking power. This will transform the handling, more raw and edgy but more potential.
The NISMO 370Z in 2009 Best Motoring test managed 1:06.643 lap driven by Seiji Ara, this is possible with the replica on CS tire. I have tested at Tsukuba, and with base spec ver2 ( 370 Touring distribution 56/44 ) and base VLSD, it managed 1:05.7xx. The replay has been included.

For best experience and closest spec, the base ( sports exhaust+cat ) and semi racing exhaust only is preferred.

Added replay of a test run at Laguna Seca with NISMO 370Z on 56/44 distribution and NISMO GT LSD, time at 1:43s, CS tire.

UPDATE August 2016 : Updated rear damper compression, increased to 7, lowered both anti roll bar from 5/5 to 3/3. This should give better stability. Racing Exhaust can also be used if prefer the sound of it, use limiter to hit 350HP.

The NISMO 370Z has been updated, increased rear damper compression to 7, and lowered both ARB to 3. Racing exhaust can be used if you like the sound, use limiter to reach 350HP.


EDIT : I'm testing Abarth 595 build ( 160HP and higher power spec ), it's a nimble little car Also testing the Cizeta V16T road car build on CH, going great. The F40 LM may also be released, 750PS, will use weight calculated from dry weight difference between road F40 and F40 LM ( about 100kg lighter ), with suspension from previously released F40 build.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The GTR GT3 soft springs induce more weight transfer, which is why more prone to oversteer, while the camber being lower, a car with high aero grip and softer springs will roll more, and cause more dynamic camber changes as result due to the added suspension movement/travel during acceleration/braking and cornering. I reduced the camber as the car will dive/squat more, leans more when pushed hard. GT6 do simulate dynamic camber changes and visually can be seen as well.
Often cars with stiff springs also may still run with high camber, it depends a lot on how much grip the tire have, and the motion ratio of the suspension or the actual wheel rate ( this is real life though )

Glad the Mugen drives well, your friend should have kept the RR The damper for the Civic, yeah keep in mind the numbers are not representative of the damper strength, 1 can still be more than enough, while 10 can still too low For the low rear compression and high front extension, the front extension is set at 10 to keep the nose down on acceleration, meaning the front tires will keep more traction on exit - remember that I also set the front compression to lowest. On FWD in GT6, it's easily felt if you use high front extension on front heavy car ( about 60% on front axle ), most players/tuners tend to use ballast and move it rearward, thus often do no feel this effect easily.
For rear compression, with the nose more planted during acceleration, I set the rear on lowest to keep things balanced and to smooth the reaction from stiffer rear roll bar. You can try increase rear compression and see what happens, try 5 or 7

Cheers mate, thanks for that explanation on camber. I think I get it now. I didn't know that GT simulates dynamic camber changes. Despite all the shortcomings, GT's suspension physics ain't so bad after all

For the dampers, so basically high front extension can have 2 outcomes?
1) Keeps the nose down on acceleration --> thus providing more front grip
2) Prevents inner front tyre from coming back down to the ground when lifting in hard cornering --> thus causing less grip

How do you keep effect 1 and avoid effect 2 in the Civic? And for other cars, how do you know which effect it will be? Is it dependent on weight distribution (front heavy cars more likely to be effect 1, rear heavy cars more likely effect 2)? Or just trial and error?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Cheers mate, thanks for that explanation on camber. I think I get it now. I didn't know that GT simulates dynamic camber changes. Despite all the shortcomings, GT's suspension physics ain't so bad after all

For the dampers, so basically high front extension can have 2 outcomes?
1) Keeps the nose down on acceleration --> thus providing more front grip
2) Prevents inner front tyre from coming back down to the ground when lifting in hard cornering --> thus causing less grip

How do you keep effect 1 and avoid effect 2 in the Civic? And for other cars, how do you know which effect it will be? Is it dependent on weight distribution (front heavy cars more likely to be effect 1, rear heavy cars more likely effect 2)? Or just trial and error?

I think I used low ARB (2) on the front of the Civic, also low compression damper, to reduce chances of a wheel lifting off the ground The way I do it, is to drive it and see how the car behave to the changes, the weight also have big influence on how the suspension perform. If you are curious, move the ballast to the rear, and drive it again

For other FF cars, I suggest to increase the front extension slowly, and depending on how much weight/spring rate used, you may need high value or low I find that in GT6, FF and AWD cars often likes high front extension and rear extension.

Regarding brake power, GT6 do have powerful brakes, for the GTR GT3, lowering the brakes closer to 1 or 2 may be necessary. I often found normal brakes not good enough, thus I often run high brake balance trying to get similar braking distance to real life reference lap

The BB that I set for the GTR GT3 was to get close to Nick McMillen lap at Spa ( I used his onboard lap run ), he braked hard all the time, and it's best to use real life as reference than other games RH tires also allow the GT6 GTR GT3 keep up pace with the real car lap at Spa.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I think I used low ARB (2) on the front of the Civic, also low compression damper, to reduce chances of a wheel lifting off the ground The way I do it, is to drive it and see how the car behave to the changes, the weight also have big influence on how the suspension perform. If you are curious, move the ballast to the rear, and drive it again

For other FF cars, I suggest to increase the front extension slowly, and depending on how much weight/spring rate used, you may need high value or low I find that in GT6, FF and AWD cars often likes high front extension and rear extension.

Regarding brake power, GT6 do have powerful brakes, for the GTR GT3, lowering the brakes closer to 1 or 2 may be necessary. I often found normal brakes not good enough, thus I often run high brake balance trying to get similar braking distance to real life reference lap

The BB that I set for the GTR GT3 was to get close to Nick McMillen lap at Spa ( I used his onboard lap run ), he braked hard all the time, and it's best to use real life as reference than other games RH tires also allow the GT6 GTR GT3 keep up pace with the real car lap at Spa.

Ah yes, you used quite low front ARB and soft front springs in the Civic (softer front than rear in fact, despite the Civic being front heavy). That might help alleviate the lifting inner tyre side effect. I always forgot to look at the suspension as a whole working together instead of just the individual components

Regarding the brakes, if the GT6 car is close to real life, then in that case maybe it's Assetto that's wrong and have too weak brakes. Tbh I don't like how brake pressure and brake balance is lumped under one setting in GT5/6. IIRC in GT2 you can set brake strength and balance separately. The same with PC sims.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Ah yes, you used quite low front ARB and soft front springs in the Civic (softer front than rear in fact, despite the Civic being front heavy). That might help alleviate the lifting inner tyre side effect. I always forgot to look at the suspension as a whole working together instead of just the individual components

Regarding the brakes, if the GT6 car is close to real life, then in that case maybe it's Assetto that's wrong and have too weak brakes. Tbh I don't like how brake pressure and brake balance is lumped under one setting in GT5/6. IIRC in GT2 you can set brake strength and balance separately. The same with PC sims.

The spring rate on the Mugen RR is based on real Mugen coilover kit rate It's pretty mild compared to the likes of Spoon.

Also consider when you drive in offline mode is different than online with tire/fuel consumption enabled, you will have longer braking distance, a bit less grip as well due to the simulated fuel and tire wearing out.

If you want challenge, drive the Honda S2000 replica I posted on last page, try that online at Tsukuba and try to beat the Best Motoring lap record 1:07s ( in the notes ), use CS tire with tire/fuel consumption on normal or fast, you may need low fuel load I set the damper pretty soft on the S2000, so smoothness is paramount

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The spring rate on the Mugen RR is based on real Mugen coilover kit rate It's pretty mild compared to the likes of Spoon.

Also consider when you drive in offline mode is different than online with tire/fuel consumption enabled, you will have longer braking distance, a bit less grip as well due to the simulated fuel and tire wearing out.

If you want challenge, drive the Honda S2000 replica I posted on last page, try that online at Tsukuba and try to beat the Best Motoring lap record 1:07s ( in the notes ), use CS tire with tire/fuel consumption on normal or fast, you may need low fuel load I set the damper pretty soft on the S2000, so smoothness is paramount

Oh, so you always test your cars online? Besides the tyre/fuel load I thought GT6 physics is the same online/offline.

Sadly my network connection doesn't allow me to go online. It's a NAT issue. I can connect to servers and do seasonals, but no QM or lobbies for me. Unfortunately because I live in shared apartment there's nothing I can do to change it

I drove your S2000 too. Smooth is key as you said Real lovely car to drive 👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Oh, so you always test your cars online? Besides the tyre/fuel load I thought GT6 physics is the same online/offline.

Sadly my network connection doesn't allow me to go online. It's a NAT issue. I can connect to servers and do seasonals, but no QM or lobbies for me. Unfortunately because I live in shared apartment there's nothing I can do to change it

I drove your S2000 too. Smooth is key as you said Real lovely car to drive 👍

I do not always test them online, the physics is not really the same of course as offline, the fuel and tire wear are not simulated, which is why I hated how PD locked out the options in GT6 offline mode.

I have very slow connection ( less then 256kbps up/down ) when I ran out of fair usage limit, and sometimes only NAT 3, but I can still host a room albeit at reduced player limit for stability ( 3 or 4 max ) and usually room quality at low or standard. I often host for hours without issue

The S2000 is underrated in GT6 ( the premium one ), still wish the AP1 1999-2000 S2000 also a premium

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I do not always test them online, the physics is not really the same of course as offline, the fuel and tire wear are not simulated, which is why I hated how PD locked out the options in GT6 offline mode.

I have very slow connection ( less then 256kbps up/down ) when I ran out of fair usage limit, and sometimes only NAT 3, but I can still host a room albeit at reduced player limit for stability ( 3 or 4 max ) and usually room quality at low or standard. I often host for hours without issue

The S2000 is underrated in GT6 ( the premium one ), still wish the AP1 1999-2000 S2000 also a premium

Yeah it's so stupid how PD always managed to remove features from each new game I mean we can set fuel/tyre depletion in GT5, why is it removed???

I thought it's weird that the newest S2000 doesn't have the highest PP. Normally the premium models are always top of the range. I was hoping they would add the final model S2000 CR. That would be awesome to have in GTS

 

[TheCrazySwede]

The S2000 is underrated in GT6 ( the premium one ), still wish the AP1 1999-2000 S2000 also a premium

Excuse me for pinching my way in, but let's not forget how awesome the F20C motor is

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yeah it's so stupid how PD always managed to remove features from each new game I mean we can set fuel/tyre depletion in GT5, why is it removed???

I thought it's weird that the newest S2000 doesn't have the highest PP. Normally the premium models are always top of the range. I was hoping they would add the final model S2000 CR. That would be awesome to have in GTS

I could make a 2008 S2000 CR from the S2000 replica I posted on page 153, the main difference is suspension ( springs,damper,ARB, rear cross brace ) which I have data on, wider rear tires ( 255 vs 245 normal S2000 ), Potenza RE070 instead RE050 ( CS or maybe SH ), sports muffler, quicker steering ratio, lower shift knob for shorter stoke/throw and the rear wing ( not sure if can be replicated visually ), as well as body kit/front spoiler which reduced lift, 49kg lighter ( A/C, stereo and sound deadener removal, but Honda still offer option to include these ), some chassis strenghtening + aluminum hard top ( which adds weight back around 27kg ) Oh, also exclusive CR Apex Blue Pearl paint

Excuse me for pinching my way in, but let's not forget how awesome the F20C motor is

I second this, I still have Best Motoring first drive of 1999 Honda S2000 in Germany ( I think ), Gan-san ( Motoharu Kurosawa ) drove it on mountain roads at high speed with traffic and he gave great impression about the car

 

[OdeFinn]

Ah yes, you used quite low front ARB and soft front springs in the Civic (softer front than rear in fact, despite the Civic being front heavy). That might help alleviate the lifting inner tyre side effect. I always forgot to look at the suspension as a whole working together instead of just the individual components

When checking suspension as whole packet you should start everything from actual weight on springs and springs itself. That's defining 90% of car behavior. If supported weights vs spring rates varies lot then you have really minimal affect on other parts (dampers arb), but if weight is supported close to same rate on both ends then you can do magic with dampers and arb to change characteristics of car totally different. It's just timing what component gives up first under mass movement/pressure and how much using suspension parts

Civic is "easy" car mostly due low center of gravity, programmed in game as in real world, sad at we don't have CoG measuring possible on GT6, just feeling it and adjusting by feeling.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I could make a 2008 S2000 CR from the S2000 replica I posted on page 153, the main difference is suspension ( springs,damper,ARB, rear cross brace ) which I have data on, wider rear tires ( 255 vs 245 normal S2000 ), Potenza RE070 instead RE050 ( CS or maybe SH ), sports muffler, quicker steering ratio, lower shift knob for shorter stoke/throw and the rear wing ( not sure if can be replicated visually ), as well as body kit/front spoiler which reduced lift, 49kg lighter ( A/C, stereo and sound deadener removal, but Honda still offer option to include these ), some chassis strenghtening + aluminum hard top ( which adds weight back around 27kg ) Oh, also exclusive CR Apex Blue Pearl paint

Seems pretty double. Maybe you could even use the Opera S2000 or Amuse S2000 R1? I think those came with a little front downforce stock. There's no shortage of tuner S2000s in this game to play around with to find the best fit (Opera, Amuse, Spoon, Mugen and fantasy Gran Turismo LM edition).

I also tested the Civic some more. Higher rear compression gives more oversteer on entry. I actually like it at 7 more than 1 lol. Maybe it's just my driving style though. Softer front extension gives a lot more understeer on power. No debate here, the car just plows on exits at 1 and it's horrible to drive.

Also tried putting 200kg ballast at the rear Needless to say it ruined the handling. I'm not even gonna try to explain how the car behaves here

When checking suspension as whole packet you should start everything from actual weight on springs and springs itself. That's defining 90% of car behavior. If supported weights vs spring rates varies lot then you have really minimal affect on other parts (dampers arb), but if weight is supported close to same rate on both ends then you can do magic with dampers and arb to change characteristics of car totally different. It's just timing what component gives up first under mass movement/pressure and how much using suspension parts

Civic is "easy" car mostly due low center of gravity, programmed in game as in real world, sad at we don't have CoG measuring possible on GT6, just feeling it and adjusting by feeling.

Yeah I figured spring rate got to be matched to the car's weight. With the Civic it's heavy front, but Ridox uses softer front springs. How do you explain that it's so sensitive to suspension changes?

 

[ALB123]

I didn't know that GT simulates dynamic camber changes. Despite all the shortcomings, GT's suspension physics ain't so bad after all

Having moved onto PC sims where the physics are supposed to be way superior to consoles, I can tell you that GT6's physics are actually pretty damn awesome, to be honest with you. I think a good amount of that PC Sim superiority is a bunch of crap. Sure, there are many differences, but GT6 deserves a lot more respect than it's given and anyone who tells you differently is not judging GT6 fairly and without bias.

Personally, I think GT6's biggest shortcomings are fairly minor things, like grading the tires way wrong. I learned from Ridox and his garage that even exotics, especially the older ones, should be driven on what GT6 calls "Comfort Tires" if you're trying to give it a realistic feel. Maybe Sport Hard if you're trying to give it a "I spent a ton of money on the best track tires made for this car" feel. Driving Nissan 350Z's with Sport Soft tires is wrong, wrong, wrong and I'll defend that position forever. Once you put the correct tires on - you feel a huge improvement.

Kunos claims that the physics and everything related that's in their PC sim is also in their Console version. If that's the truth, that physics superiority myth is going to be exposed for what it is once GT6 players get their hands on AC this week. Is it better? Yes. I think so... Is it night and day better? Hell no. GT6 does it pretty darn good. I think the differences come thru when pushing a car to its limit. GT6 is more forgiving at that point, I believe, but it's no kiddie game like a lot of the PC Sim crowd wants you to believe.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Having moved onto PC sims where the physics are supposed to be way superior to consoles, I can tell you that GT6's physics are actually pretty damn awesome, to be honest with you. I think a good amount of that PC Sim superiority is a bunch of crap. Sure, there are many differences, but GT6 deserves a lot more respect than it's given and anyone who tells you differently is not judging GT6 fairly and without bias.

Personally, I think GT6's biggest shortcomings are fairly minor things, like grading the tires way wrong. I learned from Ridox and his garage that even exotics, especially the older ones, should be driven on what GT6 calls "Comfort Tires" if you're trying to give it a realistic feel. Maybe Sport Hard if you're trying to give it a "I spent a ton of money on the best track tires made for this car" feel. Driving Nissan 350Z's with Sport Soft tires is wrong, wrong, wrong and I'll defend that position forever. Once you put the correct tires on - you feel a huge improvement.

Kunos claims that the physics and everything related that's in their PC sim is also in their Console version. If that's the truth, that physics superiority myth is going to be exposed for what it is once GT6 players get their hands on AC this week. Is it better? Yes. I think so... Is it night and day better? Hell no. GT6 does it pretty darn good. I think the differences come thru when pushing a car to its limit. GT6 is more forgiving at that point, I believe, but it's no kiddie game like a lot of the PC Sim crowd wants you to believe.

Actually I believe GT6 is still a long way off in terms of physics and FFB. It's not simcade as some PC elitists claim, but some aspects are certainly still behind sims that came out 10+ years ago (LFS, rFactor, GTR2, et al). From what I played, GTS is only a marginal improvement. It's not gonna be better than PCARS, let alone AC.

I drive GT6 with Comfort tyres for all road cars and ABS off, and jumping from GT6 straight to AC (with the same car & track) is like switching from SDTV to HDTV in terms of driving feedback clarity. It's not way off, but everything just feels more crisp and clear. GT6 is ok if you're used to it, but comparing it side by side you really notice the vagueness. Suspension is overdamped, tyres behave like solid cylinders, FFB is numb, weight shifting is watered down and there is no drivetrain shock. Driving on the limit is even worse. Just look at the Ridge Racer style GT Academy top replays. If you want proof that something's wrong with GT physics, there is the evidence. Take a look at AC top times and the cars behave exactly like IRL.

Things like dynamic camber may be modelled, but the effect is so hard to detect. You need a car tuned on razor sharp settings to feel any changes. It's actually really hard to break car setups in GT. Whereas in PC sims if you don't know what you're doing you can make a car undrivable really really easily.

AC being more realistic doesn't mean it's more difficult, mind. In fact I think it's easier to drive in AC because the FFB is just so clear and the cars behave as expected. Whether or not the average GT6 player (most only playing on controller) will be able to appreciate this is another matter.

If real life is 100%, I'd put AC at 95%, PCARS 90%, GT and Forza around 80-85%, GRID at 75%, NFS at 50% and Mario Kart at 10%

Again I must stress, it's not that GT is bad. But the competition has moved on since 10 years ago. It's embarrassing for a company of PD's reputation to not keep with the times. That's my main problem. It's a relative assessment, not an absolute one.

 

[ALB123]

Actually I believe GT6 is still a long way off in terms of physics and FFB. It's not simcade as some PC elitists claim, but some aspects are certainly still behind sims that came out 10+ years ago (LFS, rFactor, GTR2, et al). From what I played, GTS is only a marginal improvement. It's not gonna be better than PCARS, let alone AC.

I drive GT6 with Comfort tyres for all road cars and ABS off, and jumping from GT6 straight to AC (with the same car & track) is like switching from SDTV to HDTV in terms of driving feedback clarity. It's not way off, but everything just feels more crisp and clear. GT6 is ok if you're used to it, but comparing it side by side you really notice the vagueness. Suspension is overdamped, tyres behave like solid cylinders, FFB is numb, weight shifting is watered down and there is no drivetrain shock. Driving on the limit is even worse. Just look at the Ridge Racer style GT Academy top replays. If you want proof that something's wrong with GT physics, there is the evidence. Take a look at AC top times and the cars behave exactly like IRL.

AC being more realistic doesn't mean it's more difficult, mind. In fact I think it's easier to drive in AC because the FFB is just so clear and the cars behave as expected. Whether or not the average GT6 player (most only playing on controller) will be able to appreciate this is another matter.

If real life is 100%, I'd put AC at 95%, PCARS 90%, GT and Forza around 80-85%, GRID at 75%, NFS at 50% and Mario Kart at 10%

Oh, I completely agree that difficulty in driving doesn't make a game more realistic. In fact, I think it's the opposite. A realistic game should drive just as easily as a real car drives. We all can drive real cars, right? If you have to "learn how to drive" in a game/sim that tells me the game is unrealistic. And don't get me wrong. I think AC definitely has better physics and ffb. I just don't think the gap between GT6 and AC is as big as a lot of people make it out to be. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just an opinion.

These PC sims put a lot more time into crafting each vehicle, I think. So, every single car should be pretty unique whereas I think GT6/Forza pushes out so many cars that besides small differences, a lot of cars kind of drive and feel exactly the same way. But, that's why PC sims start off with 20-30 cars and console games can add 100-200 new or improved vehicles with each new release.

Again, I do agree that it's the harder that you push a car is where the differences start widening. I didn't crash even remotely as often as I crash my vehicles in AC. Especially those "tank slapper" types of crashes - when oversteer snaps back on your correction and then whips you around. Ugh...That happens quite often to me. There is more forgiveness in GT6 when driving the same car & track with the same settings, no TC and ABS enabled, for instance. ABS in GT6 is ridiculous. I should have listened to Ridox years ago when he told me to stop using it. I most often drive with ABS = Factory in AC and it's nothing like ABS in GT6.

Also, I don't think Assetto Corsa could have ever been ported to the PS3 platform. So, Polyphony did a pretty magnificent job with the limited hardware at their disposal. I'm sure GTSport will be an improvement of GT6. Its a shame you didn't think it was much of an improvement - hopefully they still have tweaking to do before the game goes Gold.

EDIT: I should restate that this is exactly why I was drawn to Ridox's Replica Garage in the first place. Ridox would put that extra weight back onto a Murcielago if GT6 had it 200kg lighter than the real car. A lot of times his adjustments technically made the car "trickier" to drive hard, but at least it was tweaked in the right direction. He knew when cars were too forgiving and not realistic.

 

[OdeFinn]

Yeah I figured spring rate got to be matched to the car's weight. With the Civic it's heavy front, but Ridox uses softer front springs. How do you explain that it's so sensitive to suspension ch

Hmm, well if just going by calculator and physics that civic should set for neutral handling f2:r1 ratio on dampers, and if leaving arb as is car will handle really close same on any damper setting in rate 2:1.
(If tune was mine i probably just put 2 on front comp and leave it, softening rear extension gives nice live rear, I like it, but not all, that's what civic is made for )

Example tunes what are on 2:1 ratio
2/1
10/5
---
4/2
8/4
So on.

So extension on front double as on rear extension, same on compression.

Reason, car mass sits double on front versus rear after springs are taken in count.

Edit: but if you use balanced dampers, then you must use balanced brake bias too, so go with 5/5 if doing 2:1 ratio on dampers.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Seems pretty double. Maybe you could even use the Opera S2000 or Amuse S2000 R1? I think those came with a little front downforce stock. There's no shortage of tuner S2000s in this game to play around with to find the best fit (Opera, Amuse, Spoon, Mugen and fantasy Gran Turismo LM edition).

I also tested the Civic some more. Higher rear compression gives more oversteer on entry. I actually like it at 7 more than 1 lol. Maybe it's just my driving style though. Softer front extension gives a lot more understeer on power. No debate here, the car just plows on exits at 1 and it's horrible to drive.

Also tried putting 200kg ballast at the rear Needless to say it ruined the handling. I'm not even gonna try to explain how the car behaves here



Yeah I figured spring rate got to be matched to the car's weight. With the Civic it's heavy front, but Ridox uses softer front springs. How do you explain that it's so sensitive to suspension changes?

I already made a quick setup on the premium S2000, I prefer the premium as it's the closest model as Club Racer was the last production phase run ( 2008-2009 ) It's good enough to get close to the Honda claim of being 2 seconds faster at Tsukuba than the original AP1 F20C S2000, should be around 1:06s. The build will be sharper and stiffer overall than the AP2 S2000, but still good on CM tire too.

Looks like you have made a special Civic tailored for you with the rear damper compression at 7

Actually I believe GT6 is still a long way off in terms of physics and FFB. It's not simcade as some PC elitists claim, but some aspects are certainly still behind sims that came out 10+ years ago (LFS, rFactor, GTR2, et al). From what I played, GTS is only a marginal improvement. It's not gonna be better than PCARS, let alone AC.

I drive GT6 with Comfort tyres for all road cars and ABS off, and jumping from GT6 straight to AC (with the same car & track) is like switching from SDTV to HDTV in terms of driving feedback clarity. It's not way off, but everything just feels more crisp and clear. GT6 is ok if you're used to it, but comparing it side by side you really notice the vagueness. Suspension is overdamped, tyres behave like solid cylinders, FFB is numb, weight shifting is watered down and there is no drivetrain shock. Driving on the limit is even worse. Just look at the Ridge Racer style GT Academy top replays. If you want proof that something's wrong with GT physics, there is the evidence. Take a look at AC top times and the cars behave exactly like IRL.

Things like dynamic camber may be modelled, but the effect is so hard to detect. You need a car tuned on razor sharp settings to feel any changes. It's actually really hard to break car setups in GT. Whereas in PC sims if you don't know what you're doing you can make a car undrivable really really easily.

AC being more realistic doesn't mean it's more difficult, mind. In fact I think it's easier to drive in AC because the FFB is just so clear and the cars behave as expected. Whether or not the average GT6 player (most only playing on controller) will be able to appreciate this is another matter.

If real life is 100%, I'd put AC at 95%, PCARS 90%, GT and Forza around 80-85%, GRID at 75%, NFS at 50% and Mario Kart at 10%

Again I must stress, it's not that GT is bad. But the competition has moved on since 10 years ago. It's embarrassing for a company of PD's reputation to not keep with the times. That's my main problem. It's a relative assessment, not an absolute one.

The main weakness of GT6 is the direction of the game designer, it's heavily simplified for all players, from the tire grading ( default fitment ), the suspension setup ( alignment, springs ), the simple tire model with no pressure adjustment, simplified weight transfer and drive train model, which may also have been compromise for the large amount of cars in the game. PD would need to hire more than 50 people like me just to make realistic stock setup to bring it closer to the likes of AC. Now, if PD willing to include more advanced physics model on the suspension, tire and drivertain, as well as more life like weight transfer, it will easily compete with PC sims. While for FFB, I have no experience with wheel, so when I play AC in the future, it will be simple comparison to GT6 for me, with stick controller.

The bolded part, this what irks me, GT Academy should have been done with tire wear/fuel consumption at very fast, so drivers will need to pit and plan ahead to get the best lap time ( low fuel and good tire condition ), those sliding about will not happen.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Honda AP2 S2000 2008-2009 CR
Tuned to replicate S2000 AP2 2008/2009 Club Racer Edition
Comfort Soft or Comfort Soft Front / Sports Hard Rear​

CAR : Honda S2000 '06
Tire : Comfort Soft or Comfort Soft Front / Sports Hard Rear

Specs JDM Dyno Power/CR Weight - No A/C,Stereo, No TOP - BASE
Horsepower: 262 HP / 266 PS at 8100 RPM
Torque : 179.7 ft-lb at 6500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.9%
Weight: 1254 kg
Ballast : 142 kg
Ballast Position : 6
Weight Distribution : 49 / 51
Performance Points: 438

Specs JDM Dyno Power/CR Weight - No A/C,Stereo, Hardtop - Optional
Horsepower: 262 HP / 266 PS at 8100 RPM
Torque : 179.7 ft-lb at 6500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.9%
Weight: 1276 kg
Ballast : 164 kg
Ballast Position : 4
Weight Distribution : 50 / 50
Performance Points: 437





GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Aero Kits Type B
Custom Rear Wing
Wing Mount Type D
Wing Small Type G
Winglets Small Type H
Wing Size Height -4 Width -28
Wheels : Stock
Car + Wing Paint : GT6 Polarized 018 ( closest to Apex Blue ), Brilliant Black, Sunrise Yellow or Azzuro


Tuning Parts Installed :
Intake Tuning
Sports Exhaust
Adjustable LSD
Weight Reduction Stage 2



Suspension - Honda S2000 2008/2009 CR OEM Stock Springs
Front Blue/Yellow/Orange, Rear Blue/Orange/Orange
OEM Range Alignment
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 130 130
Spring Rate: 7.00 6.2
Dampers (Compression): 3 4
Dampers (Extension): 3 2
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 3
Camber Angle: 0.5 1.5
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.12



LSD - Honda Torsen LSD
Initial Torque : 8
Acceleration Sensitivity: 20
Braking Sensitivity: 10


Aero
Rear : 20 ( MAX )


Brake Balance:
5/7 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 5/7, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/7 brake balance as starting point.

Notes :


The Honda AP2 S2000 Club Racer was the last run limited edition with numerous changes to the normal S2000. Most of the changes are mechanical from suspension, hardtop, sports muffler, to rumored ECU tuning, while visually the new front spoiler and rear wing not only for looks but also provide reduction in lift.

The weight spec are available in 2 options for this build, base is no hard top weight while power uses 262HP. Suspension uses Honda published data and OEM spring test report, with front 7.0 kg/mm and rear 6.2 kg/mm rate. Damper have been uprated, stiffer roll bar on both ends, as well as cross brace fitment in the real car, these are reflected in damper/ARB update on the replica.

Other improvement in the real car are quicker steering ratio, wider rear tire at 255/40 R17 ( Potenza RE070 - ultra performance stickier tire, a special R version used on R35 GTR as factory equipment ), front spoiler and rear wing ( replicated with GT Auto Aero ), and sports muffler ( sports exhaust fitment ).

There is also special Club Racer paint color : Apex Blue, which closest I have is GT6 Polarized 018 or Azzuro.

I tested the CR at Apricot Hill Reverse and Tsukuba. Honda claimed over 2 seconds faster at Tsukuba than the base original S2000 ( AP1 ) which has 1:08s lap record. 1:06s lap time is expected on CS tire or the optional CS/SH tire combo ( if you want to have stickier rear to approximate the real car wider rear tires )

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

NISMO Fairlady 350Z Z-Tune ( Z33 ) '03 Gran Turismo Special
( Special Premium Version using Gran Turismo 350Z RS )

Tuned to replicate NISMO 350Z Z-Tune by Gran Turismo
Comfort Soft to Sports Medium​

​

CAR : Gran Turismo 350Z RS
Tire : Comfort Soft to Sports Medium

Specs NISMO Z-Tune by GT
Horsepower: 384 HP / 389 PS at 6500 RPM
Torque: 319.3 ft-lb at 5200 RPM
Power Limiter at : 84.5%
Weight: 1250 kg
Ballast : 57 kg
Ballast Position : 24
Weight Distribution : 52 / 48
Performance Points: 511




GT AUTO
Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( INSTALLED ) - Mandatory
Wheels : Standard Size Motegi Racing in Silver
Car Paint : Diamond Silver Metallic from NISMO Fairlady Z-Tune ( Z33 ) '03



Tuning Parts Installed :
Isometric Exhaust Manifold
Intake Tuning
Racing Exhaust
Adjustable LSD
Fully Customizable Dog Clutch Transmission
Fully Customizable Suspension
Weight Reduction Stage 3
Window Weight Reduction

​

Suspension - NISMO Z-Tune 350Z Coilover - BASE
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 85 85
Spring Rate: 8.79 12.00
Dampers (Compression): 6 7
Dampers (Extension): 3 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 3
Camber Angle: 1.0 1.7
Toe Angle: -0.10 0.00


Suspension - NISMO 350Z T2 Race Springs/Custom Damper -OPTIONAL
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 85 85
Spring Rate: 12.32 12.32
Dampers (Compression): 4 7
Dampers (Extension): 2 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 3
Camber Angle: 1.0 1.7
Toe Angle: -0.10 0.00



DOG CLUTCH TRANSMISSION - NISMO Z-Tune 350Z 6 Speed Close Ratio
Gran Turismo Special
Install all power parts if applicable
Set Default
Set Auto Max Speed at 310kmh / 192mph
Adjust each gear :
1st 3.501
2nd 2.359
3rd 1.722
4th 1.319
5th 1.059
6th 0.892
Set Final : 3.545


LSD Cusco RS
Initial Torque : 14
Acceleration Sensitiviy: 30
Braking Sensitivity: 10


Aero
Front / Rear : 50 ( Fixed ) / 50 ( Min )



Brake Balance:
5/7 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 5/7, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.


Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/7 brake balance as starting point.


Notes :

This is one of a kind build I made, a premium version of a standard car. The NISMO Fairlady Z33 Z-Tune is a standard car, the car itself is one of a kind as it does not exist in real life. PD made this special one off car to make a what if version of NISMO Z Tune for 350Z. The Z Tune is a special NISMO designation for the ultimate tuner special, similar to the BNR34 GTR Z Tune, which brings the Z Tune closer to supercar level of performance.

With that in mind, I used a premium 350Z closest in visual appearance and mechanical spec to the NISMO 350Z Z-Tune, the car is Amuse/Opera Performance Gran Turismo 350Z RS, which was also used as base for the Amuse Z33 Lightweight replica. The potential of the car is further maximized with the NISMO specification for Z-Tune. Lighter weight at 1250kg, optimal distribution for FR at 52/48 and good amount of power upgrades to 389PS / 384 HP with high torque tuning at 320 ft lb. I set the power parts, did oil change and installed body rigidity improvement to bring it closer to the spec and race car stiffness.

For suspension, there are 2 options, all NISMO offering, from Z Coilover Kit, with 8.79 kg/mm front and 12.00 kg/mm rear rate, and more extreme NISMO T2 Race Springs kit at 12.32 kg/mm both ends complimented with custom valved damper. Try both and see which one you like.

Gear ratio used what's fitted on the NISMO Z-Tune 350Z, a special close ratio 6 speed which achieved on this build with custom transmission. LSD uses the Cusco RS setup already used on the Amuse Z33, proven on the track, the LSD should be good enough.

I set the aero at minimum on the rear end of this build, the NISMO Z-Tune 350Z do not have front aero, but have adjustable rear from 50-150. You can increase the rear aero, but bear in mind the car is setup on minimum aero for better balance and top speed.

Use Motegi Racing wheel in standard size to mimic the NISMO Z-Tune 350Z wheel, paint it in Silver, use the Diamond Silver Metallic paint for the body ( buy the NISMO Z-Tune 350Z )

I tested the car on various tracks, from Apricot Hill Reverse, Rome and Matterhorn Short. Using CS tire, the NISMO Z-Tune 350Z premium able to lap in 1:17s at Rome, 1:32s at Apricot Hill Reverse and 26s at Matterhorn Reverse, close in performance to R35 NISMO GTR replica on the same tire

Replays for all 3 have been included, enjoy the car and have fun

 

[ALB123]

That NISMO 350Z looks awesome. The 350Z (regular) was one of my favorite cars in GT6. It's funny, I never really cared for them in real life when they were a new/modern car all those years ago. The looks grew on me and they are so fun to drive in games!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That NISMO 350Z looks awesome. The 350Z (regular) was one of my favorite cars in GT6. It's funny, I never really cared for them in real life when they were a new/modern car all those years ago. The looks grew on me and they are so fun to drive in games!

I have the vanilla 350Z replica made long ago, but it had way stiffer springs ( PD set the spring rate range way too high , like race car high ), still it was a pretty close to real car performance, may post it as well ( 2 specs, 2004 and 2007 using Tsukuba lap as reference )

 

[danbojte]

Nissan 370Z NISMO

S2000 AP2 2008/2009 Club Racer Edition

I love these! Amazingly well balanced, a pleasure to race them! 👍

PS: On higher compound tyres as well. In higher PP races also.

 

[ALB123]

I'm pretty sure we used one of your Nissan Z setups for a race in the fan club group. It brought me my very first win in the group! It might have had something to do with everybody else getting into trouble/chain-reaction bumping on the first lap, but we don't talk about that part...

danbojte is right. There is such a good balance with your Z tunes (both 350 & 370). I don't remember which is the one I preferred - my memory sucks and there were just too many damn cars in my garage to keep track of. Still, I loved both of them. Really were a pleasure to drive and drive hard!

 

[danbojte]

@ALB123 Yes, very pleasant memories. Good days to remember. 👍