Rollcages... HELP!
- Thread starter FAOLIU05
- 67 comments
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- 392
- Queens, New York City
This thread blew away my whole way of thinking. I always believed that stiff was good when it comes to racing. I always figured that a stiff chassis was better to work with when it came to suspension settings.
Motorcycles that don't have braced forks or floppy swing arms are hell to ride hard. I didn't think that overall handling could be fine tuned due to chassing flexing that outweighed the finer tuning of springs and dampers and such. In theory I guess you could have a fine handling car if you just knew how to make the chassis flexible in the right spots. Still, I thought that carbon fiber boxes that make up the chassis in F1 cars were supposed to be ultra-rigid to remove all flex possible. Besides, doesn't flexing cause metal or material fatigue (maybe not with carbon nanotubes)?
I know for certain that in GT4 a race that lasts more than a few hours puts serious stress on the chassis that a rollcage will resist (especially after hitting and wall or opponent car). And I always refresh a chassis whenever I can before a long race. I've had a chassis or two go south on me during an endurance race and it wasn't pleasant for sure.
I guess I'm the fool for always buying a roll cage for any old or new cars that I intend to do any serious racing with. I probably should try them without roll cages before I start tinkering. In the future, I shall do so. My bad for thinking that rigid automatically means superior handling. Maybe GT5 will allow you to remove the roll cages after making such a handling assumption.
The theory of locking in bad handling with a rollcage before a chassis refresh really blows me away.
Motorcycles that don't have braced forks or floppy swing arms are hell to ride hard. I didn't think that overall handling could be fine tuned due to chassing flexing that outweighed the finer tuning of springs and dampers and such. In theory I guess you could have a fine handling car if you just knew how to make the chassis flexible in the right spots. Still, I thought that carbon fiber boxes that make up the chassis in F1 cars were supposed to be ultra-rigid to remove all flex possible. Besides, doesn't flexing cause metal or material fatigue (maybe not with carbon nanotubes)?
I know for certain that in GT4 a race that lasts more than a few hours puts serious stress on the chassis that a rollcage will resist (especially after hitting and wall or opponent car). And I always refresh a chassis whenever I can before a long race. I've had a chassis or two go south on me during an endurance race and it wasn't pleasant for sure.
I guess I'm the fool for always buying a roll cage for any old or new cars that I intend to do any serious racing with. I probably should try them without roll cages before I start tinkering. In the future, I shall do so. My bad for thinking that rigid automatically means superior handling. Maybe GT5 will allow you to remove the roll cages after making such a handling assumption.
The theory of locking in bad handling with a rollcage before a chassis refresh really blows me away.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
SirBerra: I'm not at all convinced that you lock in the bad handling by adding a cage to a car that needs a refresher. I've heard that as a persistant rumor, but no one has ever offered any kind of proof. They just state it as 'true'.
Scaff has done some of the most extensive testing in GT4 settings, and if you read his post above, he's saying that he has noticed no such effect as locking in the bad handling.
The other thing that is baffling me here is that everyone seems to think that the chassis is shot at 400 km. This seems ridiculously short to me (even by GT4 standards). With the chassis refresh costing 50,000 cr, that makes each and every used car in the game the absolute worst deal possible. Most of them have tens of thousands of KM on the clock. Adding the cost of a refresh to each and every used car means that you should only buy used cars that are unavailable anywhere else in the game - otherwise you should always buy new cars, without exception. I can't quite believe that is true.
Scaff has done some of the most extensive testing in GT4 settings, and if you read his post above, he's saying that he has noticed no such effect as locking in the bad handling.
The other thing that is baffling me here is that everyone seems to think that the chassis is shot at 400 km. This seems ridiculously short to me (even by GT4 standards). With the chassis refresh costing 50,000 cr, that makes each and every used car in the game the absolute worst deal possible. Most of them have tens of thousands of KM on the clock. Adding the cost of a refresh to each and every used car means that you should only buy used cars that are unavailable anywhere else in the game - otherwise you should always buy new cars, without exception. I can't quite believe that is true.
- 1,689
- NY
- SavageEvil
I know what you mean Duke, but I've actually bought a brand new car with no mileage on it, and drove it and at 400km the refresher option became available. It seems like such a little time too, but remember everything in GT4 is slightly accelerated, tire wear, oil degradation, thank goodness that they didn't have brake wear, lol.
Try it with a brand new car and watch the refresher option become available around 400kms, and the handling starts to go south around 410kms. The first time I realized the bad handling was in my M3 GTR, flying down le sarthe, hitting the brake to slow for the indianapolis curve, my car would veer right under braking, completely baffled, I started messing with suspension, still the problem persisted. Finally found the refresher option and my car was back to normal, by that time I had around 900kms on the car. Handling is terrible without the refresher at high speeds, low speeds it's not as noticeable.
Try it with a brand new car and watch the refresher option become available around 400kms, and the handling starts to go south around 410kms. The first time I realized the bad handling was in my M3 GTR, flying down le sarthe, hitting the brake to slow for the indianapolis curve, my car would veer right under braking, completely baffled, I started messing with suspension, still the problem persisted. Finally found the refresher option and my car was back to normal, by that time I had around 900kms on the car. Handling is terrible without the refresher at high speeds, low speeds it's not as noticeable.
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Stiff is good when it comes to racing, and you are quite right that it does give a more predictable base to work with when it comes to suspension tuning.SirBerra
What I would not however recomend it taking a 'stock' car and adding the roll-cage and then expecting it to handle the same. When a manufacturer stiffens the chassis of a road car, they don't leave the suspension set-up the same, it needs to be matched to the now stiffer structure. The same applies here, stiffening the cars structure without having the means to adapt the suspension to the changes (i.e. adjustable suspension) is a mistake.
However if you do have the means to adjust the suspension, then stiffing the chassis is a damn good idea. All that said a lot of the older cars will be better full stop with a stiffer chassis. In the 'Virtual Track-day series' I run a Galant GTO MR '70 and the stiffness mod was esential to get that thing working well on the track.
As I mentioned above, in my opinion I would agree with you, stiffer is better. It provides a more 'stable' base to tune from.SirBerra
The point on Carbon suffering fatigue reminded me of an article in this monthes 'Racecar Engineering' discussing just that. In reality very little in known about the long term effects on fatigue on carbon-fibre structures, particularly tubs. A number of older cars have failed at recent event, the most shocking when the entire nose (not cone but nose from pedal-box on) of a Ferrari F399 broke off at a crash at Laguna Seca. To be blunt it simply should not have happened, it was exactly what the structure was designed to stop happening.
Then I join you as a fool. Almost every car in my garage that has been modified for racing has a roll cage fitted. I'm yet to come across a car that I can't tune out any handling issues with (subject to the car being a decent base to start with).SirBerra
What you can't expect is to fit the cage and not have to adapt the suspension tuning aroundthe increased rigidity.
As far as the locking issue goes, as I have already said, in my opinion its a myth. Never felt it happen, don't believe it does.
Regards
Scaff
- 2,976
- Sweden
Scaff
Well, I haven´t got a single car in my garage with a stiffener! When I bought GT4 and saw the stiffener option, I used it on a couple of cars, since "stiffer should be better". It is, no doubt. However, when the stiffened car eventually needs a chassis refresh, you might aswell get rid of the car and buy a new one. I had a few cars with the stiffener, among them the R8, wich was really great, untill the chassis was worn out. No matter what I did, I could not tune out the erratic behaviour it had started to show. And when I did the chassis refresh, it was a total disaster! My very expensive and much appreciated R8 was now undrivable. This made me investigate how the rollcage affected my other cars fitted with it, and showed the same behaviour. Great until worn, and when you try to fix the wear with a chassis refresh, totally messed up.
I sold or got rid of the cars with stiffener, and has never used the option since. It is simply not economicly defensible, especially on an expensive car, or even worse, a car you only can get once!
Scaff
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Team666
I'm more than aware of the issues other poeple have posted in regard to this (most of them similar to your own experiences), but have to say I have not come across it myself and its certainly not for the lack of miles on the cars.
Certainly is a confusing one, but as I say its not been an issue for me and as the stiffness does make a big difference on certain cars (in particular the older ones) I intend to keep using it.
That said my comments above should be clarifed, in that I have rarely (that I can recall) used it on a car than would already have a roll-cage (i.e. race cars).
Regards
Scaff
- 24,043
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
SavageEvil
Adding a rollcage isn't the be all and end all of chassis stiffening. Seem welding the chassis/shell is usually the starting point.
- 392
- Queens, New York City
Here's another of my reasons for always adding a rollcage or chassis refresher.
I've got millions of credits and I'm lazy. I don't like to keep going back and buying parts one at a time. Plenty of times when I get a new or used car in GT4 I just buy everything in one shot even if I don't install it. I mean everything (all turbos, all exhausts, all stages of engine and drivetrain mods, all tires). I'm a virtual big spender. Of course, some of the mods I buy install automatically which I hate.
It was just a bad habit I had gotten into. And yes, it probably isn't necessary. I guess I'm like Jay Leno. I spend because I can, not because I need to.
I've got millions of credits and I'm lazy. I don't like to keep going back and buying parts one at a time. Plenty of times when I get a new or used car in GT4 I just buy everything in one shot even if I don't install it. I mean everything (all turbos, all exhausts, all stages of engine and drivetrain mods, all tires). I'm a virtual big spender. Of course, some of the mods I buy install automatically which I hate.
It was just a bad habit I had gotten into. And yes, it probably isn't necessary. I guess I'm like Jay Leno. I spend because I can, not because I need to.
- 1,689
- NY
- SavageEvil
TheCracker
It is practically the safest and most widely used way of chassis strengthening, as it creates a central hub for the suspension to work around as well as creating a safer environment for the driver.
Listen if you play GT Mode often, your car will eventually need a chassis refresh, no two ways about this. Would some of you stop adding rollcages to race cars, all you are doing is creating your own problems. As Scaff pointed out, when the chassis is stiffened, the suspension is set to match it, that's what a race ready car has, when you add a roll cage to a race car, you are essentially changing the one you already had. Now the new chassis is stiffer and your car understeers a lot now, because now you have to modulate your suspension settings to fix a car that wasn't broken.
Team666 what do you mean when you chassis got worn you tried to tune out the bad handling? Just go refresh the chassis and you should be back to top driving form, simple as that. The Refresher option returns the chassis to like new, it works, I know because I have an ass load of used cars including the black cars and it took them back to pristine handling easily. I'm sure Scaff can verify this, so Team666 unless something is wrong with your copy of the game what I said should work everytime.
- 2,976
- Sweden
SavageEvil
That is not the issue. The refresher does not do the trick if a rollcage/stiffener was attached previously. On the contrary, it seems to do things for the worse. If I do not buy a refresh, then I have to try to change the setup of the car, so that it handles at least decent. If that doesnt´work, the refresh may sound like a good option, but after that is done, the car is virtually undrivable.
Like I explained earlier, I have found this out the hard way, and I never ever touch the chassis stiffener option anymore.
For cars that have not had the chassis stiffener, the chassis refresh works perfectly well.
- 24,043
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
SavageEvil
It depends on what level of rollcage you have in reality. A lot of race series regulations don't allow for roll cages to be attached to suspension pick-up points. A rollcage that does link to suspension points is fundamentally almost a space-frame chassis. GT doesn't give you many details of what type of cage it is giving you.
...quite what my point is i don't really know...
- 1,689
- NY
- SavageEvil
Team666
What you are describing I have never seen happen. What car is this you are speaking of? If it's a racecar then something is awry with your game, because what you speak of makes no sense. All the race cars are fitted with roll cages and when they are new the car handles as well as it's supposed to, but when it wears down and the refresher option becomes available, purchasing it will return your car to brand new chassis. Now if you warped your chassis and then tried to tune out the bad handling, then bought the refresher, logic dictates that you need to return your suspension setting back to what it was before you tried to tune out the bad handling.
Case and point, the black cars you can purchase, they all need chassis refresher, do this buy the GT One(black) and try to drive it down le sarthe you notice it's very hard to keep under control, now head to the dealer and purchase the refresher option, head back to le sarthe, now be amazed as the car is now driveable, even at high speeds.
Never have i heard an issue like yours, it cleary defies logic, unless your game has a glitch that no one else has encountered as of yet. You need to describe in detail your exact sequence of events. But it seems to me that your new settings to tune out bad handling is what's making the chassis refresher seem null and void. Always zero your settings(return to default), especially if you tried to tune out bad handling problems.
- 1,689
- NY
- SavageEvil
TheCracker
True, but from looking at the illustration, it looks like a space frame. Since GT the cars are supposed to be tuned to near race car levels, it might be safer to assume that it's a space frame, which usually means understeer in spades. It would seem silly that it's not a race tuned frame, yet the rest of the car is tuned to race car levels. Either way, without the race mod option in GT4 it can be any frame, even just bolting on bars and welding the joints and doors.
- 2,976
- Sweden
Right, and the option is called "increase rigidity", and could very well be a rollcage, but it may aswell be welds, material changes or such.live4speed
SavageEvil
This has happened to all cars that I have
- Fitted the "Increase Rigidty" option to
- Driven for so long that the "Rigidity Refreshment Plan" option has become available
- Fitted that very option to
I earlier described how I found this out with the Audi R8, on wich I had fitted the "increase rigidity" to, and tried to tune it out to no avail. I then tried the "refreshment plan", and things turned for the worse. I simply sold the car and bought a new one.
That event made me carefully investigate all other cars I had with the "increase rigidity" fitted to them (Aston Martin DB9, Audi TT-R touringcar and BMW M5 springs to mind) and the result was the exact same; when they eventually needed (and was fitted with) the "refreshment plan", no setup I could think of could cure the cars erratic behaviours (massive understeer, veering left and/or right, sudden wheelhops and so on).
- 2,976
- Sweden
live4speed
One could argue that the rollcage diagram is only there because that is the most obvious symbol for increased rigidity... and AFAIK, there is no rollcage visible on any car that doesn´t already have one, once you apply the "IR" option, but that is most likely just PD...
Anyhoo, I think the option can be alot of things, depending on what car you fit it to.- 1,003
it's a rollcage in GT4, the picture is self-explanetory.
though, you could argue the racing slicks have pictures of tires nailed into the wheel, like a drag slick
I satnd with rollcage, nonetheless
though, you could argue the racing slicks have pictures of tires nailed into the wheel, like a drag slick
I satnd with rollcage, nonetheless
- 1,003
either way, team666 is right, if you add the cage, once the chassis wears off, the car handles like crap, and even when you refresh it, it's not very good, and it wears out very fast, going back to undrivable
Scaff
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LeadSlead#2
The circular marks on the racing slicks looks more to me (and would make more sense) like wear indicators, these small holes can be cut at a set depth into the face of the slick and as it is used allows a quick visual check of wear.
They are often cut in groups across the face of the tyre to allow a quick check of even or uneven wear across the tyre face.
Regards
Scaff
Definition (Roll cage):
"A specially constructed frame built around the cab of a vehicle to protect the driver from being injured in an accident, particularly in the event of a roll-over." (This half of the desccription applies to coupés/closed wheel racecars.)
"This is compared to the protection provided in open wheel racing, where a solid shell encases the majority of the driver's body as well as a rollover hoop that extends over the driver's helmet. A roll cage can also do a great deal to stiffen the chassis, which is desirable in racing applications."
Source: Wikipedia
As there is no visual evidence of this (
or is there? I must say it never crossed my mind to look...), one could conclude that it is soley a strengthening/stiffening of the components (such as the roll bars/roll hoops, other chassis components etc.) of the car for both open and closed wheel racing/road cars. In any case, you're both right in a sense.
Hope this clears things up a bit...
FormulaGT
"A specially constructed frame built around the cab of a vehicle to protect the driver from being injured in an accident, particularly in the event of a roll-over." (This half of the desccription applies to coupés/closed wheel racecars.)
"This is compared to the protection provided in open wheel racing, where a solid shell encases the majority of the driver's body as well as a rollover hoop that extends over the driver's helmet. A roll cage can also do a great deal to stiffen the chassis, which is desirable in racing applications."
Source: Wikipedia
As there is no visual evidence of this (
or is there? I must say it never crossed my mind to look...), one could conclude that it is soley a strengthening/stiffening of the components (such as the roll bars/roll hoops, other chassis components etc.) of the car for both open and closed wheel racing/road cars. In any case, you're both right in a sense. Hope this clears things up a bit...
FormulaGT
- 1,689
- NY
- SavageEvil
There's your problem Team 666, stop puting a roll cage on every car, some cars handle worse with it appled because, roll cages make the body flex less, what happens when there is less torque play in the chassis, the car turns like a brick. Heck they even said that adding the rigidity will make the car hard to turn. You'll then have to go tune the suspension all over again to account for the new rigid chassis.
Why on earth would you feel the need to increase the rigidity on the Audi R8?
1. the moment you applied that, you screwed up the car's balance
2. you will now have to recalibrate the suspension settings to match the "stiffer" chassis
3. This car already has it's specific space frame which is the suspension is tuned around.
It's not the refresher option that's making the car undriveable, you already did that yourself by adding the rigidity option. I've added the Rigidity option to the Ford GT(non race car). The car is now quite stiff, but I like that because I tuned the suspension to dial out oversteer. I bet that if you bought a new R8 and left it as is and drove it around until the refresher option became available, or until you found it hard to drive, then apply the refresher option, bet it will go back to it's original handling. I'm also willing to wager a guess that when you applied the increased rigidity, you car was hard to handle, then you had to tune out things...in a purpose built race car. You know that doesn't sound right, now does it.
And for the individual who brought up the visual representation, there are a great many things that aren't visually represented in GT4, like L4S said, the front air splitter isn't visually represented, neither is the rear diffuser, things that need to change the shape of the main chassis are not visually represented in GT4, just those gargantuan wings.
Why on earth would you feel the need to increase the rigidity on the Audi R8?
1. the moment you applied that, you screwed up the car's balance
2. you will now have to recalibrate the suspension settings to match the "stiffer" chassis
3. This car already has it's specific space frame which is the suspension is tuned around.
It's not the refresher option that's making the car undriveable, you already did that yourself by adding the rigidity option. I've added the Rigidity option to the Ford GT(non race car). The car is now quite stiff, but I like that because I tuned the suspension to dial out oversteer. I bet that if you bought a new R8 and left it as is and drove it around until the refresher option became available, or until you found it hard to drive, then apply the refresher option, bet it will go back to it's original handling. I'm also willing to wager a guess that when you applied the increased rigidity, you car was hard to handle, then you had to tune out things...in a purpose built race car. You know that doesn't sound right, now does it.
And for the individual who brought up the visual representation, there are a great many things that aren't visually represented in GT4, like L4S said, the front air splitter isn't visually represented, neither is the rear diffuser, things that need to change the shape of the main chassis are not visually represented in GT4, just those gargantuan wings.
- 2,976
- Sweden
SavageEvil
First of all, I only used the increase rigidity option on a few cars (five in all IIRC, and I got rid of them all and replaced them), just to try it out, and the R8 was also an experiment as such. I can tell you I had no problems with the R8 until the chassis was worn, that is when the trouble started, just like on all other cars I have tried the option on. The increased rigidity does enduce some understeer, but that is easily amended.
Secondly, the so called "purpose built race cars" are just not set up correctly by PD, so I always set them up properly. The "standard setup" provided by PD, is too hard, too understeery and the gearing is usually too long or too short, and the brakes are just not right either.
This means, that if I buy the increase rigidity option, I would not notice the increased understeer too much, since I set the cars up myself anyway. Of course I see that I need to apply a slightly different suspension setup than normally, but that is a minor issue anyway.
Third, I recommend you to drive your Ford GT until the "rigidity refreshment plan" option shows up, and apply it. Your car will most likely be screwed beyond repair.
