TheeFrogmanlego
(Banned)
- 1,546
- Downey
- frogmanlego
Rubber banding
- Thread starter TheeFrogmanlego
- 83 comments
- 9,344 views
- 40,846
Complete and total nonsense. I suggest you actually read the posts in response to the thread you started rather than bring up rebuttals that were already proven to be wrong while simultaneously flipping the table.
I highly doubt that it did, but that's not the point regardless. The AI in the TOCA games starting at least from TOCA 2 actually gave the illusion of driving the cars. They had accidents. They went out of their way to avoid others. They did all of that. To say nothing of some PC titles around at the same time that did the same.
The AI in the first 4 GT games did nothing but turn identical lap after identical lap no matter what was happening on track.
TheeFrogmanlego
(Banned)
- 1,546
- Downey
- frogmanlego
My argument is use GT5's great reactions with 1-3's rubber banding.. , Gt5 uses A broken form of rubber banding.. instead of making a car faster it only makes them slower once they pass you , Besides al bad rubber banding is set on high multiplier , low denominator ( slowing the cars speed down) Good rubber banding speeds cars back up to you and sets them at default pace once they pass you.. Game play wise my idea is not flawed , realism wise it is. GT5 Ai is realistic but its to god damn slow and SP sucks hard when I can over take them all in turn one.. or you pick a car that's to slow in the car pool and you never even stand a chance.. Motorstorm and motorstorm pacific rift and motor storm arctic edge have some of the best AI iv seen * Well up until you get on legend difficulty then its just unfair like you guys describe* Compare this to motor storm Apocalypse's set pace AI that drive like grandma's and give you zero competition, Heck im talking game play wise not realism wise. For all i care it SHOULD HAVE A TOGGLE
Do you even understand what rubber band AI is? Because that isn't it.
- 2,747
- Morgoth_666
After all this time people still haven't realized that GT5 has rubber band AI that speeds up dramatically when you build a lead? It's as obvious as your speedometer in some events, like the FGT championship and the Super GT races as well. I'm not sure if it slows them down very much when they are way in front or not, seems not as strong, but it's is absolutely there when they are behind by more than a couple of seconds, at least in some events.
It can be overpowered through skilled driving or an overpowered car however, it's not like in some games where they practically break the sound barrier to keep up with you. But they absolutely will run a good 2-5 seconds per lap faster when you are 5 seconds or more ahead in at least some A-Spec races. It's not quite as noteceable because once they get close they back off before they catch all the way up, and when they are right behind you they become incredibly timid and never seem to pass without you making a big mistake, usually dropping way back because something you do scares them.
It's not an "either-or" situation. GT6 doesn't need rubber banding. If my understanding of "emotional AI" is correct, that would be nice, but what GT6 needs is decent AI and then user-selectable difficulty settings. Making them more lifelike or race-crafty or skilled at avoiding ramming you can come after they teach them how to drive around a track. And they really need to drop the patched-in current idiotic parking and horribly wrong and counterproductive lappery behavior they have now in GT5, that does more harm than good - even to a complete novice casual player.
It can be overpowered through skilled driving or an overpowered car however, it's not like in some games where they practically break the sound barrier to keep up with you. But they absolutely will run a good 2-5 seconds per lap faster when you are 5 seconds or more ahead in at least some A-Spec races. It's not quite as noteceable because once they get close they back off before they catch all the way up, and when they are right behind you they become incredibly timid and never seem to pass without you making a big mistake, usually dropping way back because something you do scares them.
It's not an "either-or" situation. GT6 doesn't need rubber banding. If my understanding of "emotional AI" is correct, that would be nice, but what GT6 needs is decent AI and then user-selectable difficulty settings. Making them more lifelike or race-crafty or skilled at avoiding ramming you can come after they teach them how to drive around a track. And they really need to drop the patched-in current idiotic parking and horribly wrong and counterproductive lappery behavior they have now in GT5, that does more harm than good - even to a complete novice casual player.
gamerdog6482
(Banned)
- 6,233
- Venom, USA
- Gamerdog6482
What we need for GT6 is the Emotion Engine back.
Need for Speed: Underground had VISCOUS rubber banding and that almost ruined the game for me.
What saved it was the Skyline to other car ratio, which was much higher than in GT4 or GT5.
Need for Speed: Underground had VISCOUS rubber banding and that almost ruined the game for me.
What saved it was the Skyline to other car ratio, which was much higher than in GT4 or GT5.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Have you ever raced in real life? In casual competition, drivers will drive faster if they can see the car in front or if the guy in front starts to pull away... but at the professional level, when a driver is faster, he will be faster, period. Other drivers don't miraculously find another few seconds per lap to catch up. At most, the guys in second and third will be able to find a few tenths, but the rest of the field will still suck.
If a guy is five-tenths slower than you in event qualifying, it's unreasonable to expect him to run two to three seconds a lap faster than you during the race to catch up from last place if you're going flat out.
That's the big problem. If the guy is catching up because he's doing qualifying laps during the race and you're coasting, that's realistic.
If the guy is catching up because the computer has decided he needs an x% performance boost to catch up and give you "a close race", that's horrible, and a big turn-off for most of us who love driving.
That's not rubber-banding... that's driver aggression. Doesn't work very well if the car the AI is driving does not respond well to over-driving. Just see how the AI all seem to outbrake themselves and go off at high-speed braking points when jostling in a pack.
Also, GT5 AI have an arbitrary upper speed limit... when they're on "normal" or "cool" aggression levels, their top speed is lower. Which is stupid, because "cool" driving shouldn't mean driving slower on the straights!
The problem with GT5's aggression is that when drivers are alone they lose it completely. The only time a driver behind you will speed up to catch up is when he is in a pack of fast moving cars. This is somewhat different from real life in that a driver who has to defend his position might actually go slower by taking defensive lines, whereas the guy in second place in clear air will be able to go faster and will push harder.
GT5's AI is flawed in many ways, but more realistic than the previously robotic single-file AI. A few tweaks to the system are all that are needed for GT6.
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- 1,033
Nope, dumb. I do on the other hand like the idea of difficulty levels. But! that shouldn't mean that the cars are just somehow slower. Make the drivers better or worse, not the cars.
- 2,747
- Morgoth_666
It's not aggression, it's simple rubber banding but with a somewhat reasonable upper limit. They have no concept of what is going on around them, they simply speed up as you get farther and farther ahead. I found it most easily noticeable with the FGT's at Monza, a relatively simple track to run consistent times on. You can easily catch and work your way through the field running exactly the same lap times and nothing will change about how the AI drives. They may slow down when you are way behind - it is certainly easy to catch back up - but I've never been able to observe any obvious signs of this myself.
But once you get in front, you will reliably need to run several seconds per lap faster in order to maintain an even gap or pull away when you are 5 or 10 seconds ahead than you do when you are only 2 or 3 seconds ahead. Once they get close, they reliably back off and you can easily pull away until you get a few seconds ahead again. At no time while this is happening will they have any more or less difficulty driving the car without crashing than while you are behind or working through the field. The pack seems to bunch up behind you when they are gaining on you, but then the FGT field usually stays fairly close together since the cars are equal(one of the reasons the event makes for a good championship since the same guy doesn't always win).
I can't say for sure if this effect is the same or even present for every single race. As a rule I try to set my difficulty so that I'm overtaking the leader late on the last lap so I don't usually get to observe it. You need to be able to run consistent lap times once in front to be able to measure their pace and how it changes. As I said, I saw it most clearly in the FGT events and SuperGT events - most specifically at Monza in the FGTs and at Indy Speedway in the SuperGT cars(I think that was a seasonal event). Most others that I have seen mention this did say that it seemed most pronounced in the Formula GTs.
All of this describes B-Spec quite well, but despite many claims to the contrary I have never seen any evidence whatsoever that any of this happens in A-Spec at all, ever. In B-Spec, A slightly faster car will pull away for a little while, but if there is a pack behind it they will catch up once he cools off and often overtake him before it gets back to racing hard again. A fairly wide difference in pace can be overcome in this manner. Two fast cars together will streak away from the field, but one fast car alone will often only get a relatively small lead unless the cars behind remain spaced well apart and cool down themselves.
In A-Spec any faster car - even one only slightly faster - will always pull away once it gets in front, and continue to do so until it eventually laps the field given enough time. It never backs off substantially even while alone, and never speeds up when catching other cars. The only thing that happens when it catches another car is that it slows down while being held up trying to get by. That and the slipstream effect.
I don't believe they drive any faster or slower overall when near you as opposed to the other AI, but of course your "erratic" driving frequently scares them and makes them back off a bit. That makes it difficult to judge.
While endurance races seem(I've never specifically tested for it, but parking while they continue to drive seems to be a reasonably good way to estimate the lap times they will run when you are racing) to disable the rubber-banding effect, the difference between AI behavior in A-Spec and B-Spec modes is very clearly visible in those longer races. But the same difference exits in all of A-Spec.
I'm not sure what if any differences there may be to their driving in Arcade mode... the inclusion of the "AI Aggression" setting makes that rather difficult to judge.
On that we can agree. It's not as far off as it sometimes seems, they mostly just need to be given better lines to drive and less eagerness to back off when exiting the corners. And of course the whole parking/lappery behavior needs to be completely re-thought.
I could of course be wrong about all of this, I've been wrong about many things before and will be again. But I am very confident of what I've observed on this, though my observations are not a substitute for proper scientific testing. Whether it's there or not, or isolated to a few events, they have certainly managed to make it much less obnoxious and noticeable than most other console games.
- 2,583
- Kelowna, Canada
- Antonisbob
- No...
Nope, no sir. Don't like it.
- 1,382
- Minnesota
- SQE_HAZ3L
Why doesn't PD implement something where at the start of the career mode on GT6 they have you drive 3 different cars on 3 different tracks; say a Mini Cooper at London, a Ferrari 458 at LeMans and a Holden Commadore at Bathurst. After you have done that the game will take the times that you have run and set them to a level of AI difficulty. If you are a slower driver you will be set to a level of AI that starts out slower but will help train you to be faster while if you are a faster driver you will be up against faster AI.
I realise that there are 2 flaws with this:
1. Why should a person go as fast as they can during the learning period?
2. How much coding will it take to add this and how much will this delay GT6?
I'm not sure of the answer to the second part so if someone could guess that would be awesome. The answer that I came up with for the first part is because you want to do your best and the game will give an extra bonus for completing lap times under a certain time.
RedDragon
I realise that there are 2 flaws with this:
1. Why should a person go as fast as they can during the learning period?
2. How much coding will it take to add this and how much will this delay GT6?
I'm not sure of the answer to the second part so if someone could guess that would be awesome. The answer that I came up with for the first part is because you want to do your best and the game will give an extra bonus for completing lap times under a certain time.
RedDragon
TheeFrogmanlego
(Banned)
- 1,546
- Downey
- frogmanlego
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
^ What SlipZtrem (I forgot how to spell it) said, on the first page.
What we need, is a professional level that's even faster... Not just in faster cars.
When I select Amateur, or such, in Arcade, it gives me competition in much slower cars. When I select professional (the only option I can actually stand) it gives me the same slow AI, but with much faster cars (Sauber C9 vs. my Opel Astra Touring Car? REALLY?! Why don't you give me faster AI in the Mercedes CLK, Audi TT-R... blah blah blah.
When we select slower AI, it needs to be their skill level that changes, not their cars. And, when we talk about this "boost," sure, if you're two feet off of the car in front, you'll get a boost; that's called drafting. But, when I'm half a lap ahead of some noob, online, and he catches up, spins, and catches up again, because my car's steering has gone numb, and I've lost all sorts of grip, I can't help but think that the boost feature is pointless.
This "rubber banding" feature, as used online (in open lobbies) or offline, does nothing except reward bad drivers with a fifteenth chance. If I had even a second chance, in my karting career, when my steering rod broke, and I could've avoided the wreck, and been the champion, (out of 200 drivers ranked, apparently,) I would already be racing Formula 1 cars, even right now, like Robbie Wickens, who went to the very same track.
Giving some noob a fifteenth chance in a race doesn't seem fair to the guy who actually finishes a clean, fast race.
So, please, no "Rubber Banding," because it isn't realistic... at all.
Instead, as most people here are thinking, why not base the AI directly off of your own lap times? If they're in the same car, no matter what, the AI can run those exact lap times, through better programming.
But, giving more horsepower and grip to those who fall off of the pace is terrible. Need For Speed does that. End of that discussion.
I remember, back when I used to play Race Pro, the AI's hardest difficulty was always approximately a tenth of a second faster, or slower, except at Mid-Ohio and city circuits (because I'm awesome at city circuits.)
Why can't GT6's AI be fast enough to be within a second of me? Fact is, I've beaten GT5's AI, while the AI was in a Zonda LM Race car, while I was in the new DLC Honda. The Zonda is much more powerful, and much faster! I was on racing hards, so was the Zonda! Why?!?! How is it possible?
The only answer, is because GT5's AI is way too slow, for me, but, still way too fast for the 12 year olds that play GT5.
But, to prove that it's possible, Race Pro's AI was horrendously slow, on its lowest difficulty, (I couldn't even complete a race, I got bored, and went back to up the difficulty) and was within a tenth of a second, in qualifying, at any given race track. I qualified approximately 12th, in a field of 16 cars, everytime, and my average finish was something like 6th.
Now, there's a good AI system. But, my god, I wish it were even faster, at the city circuits.
Funniest, most quotable post ever.
"Lewis, Massa is catching you. You know what will happen if he catches you" (these are my thoughts, circa last year)
What we need, is a professional level that's even faster... Not just in faster cars.
When I select Amateur, or such, in Arcade, it gives me competition in much slower cars. When I select professional (the only option I can actually stand) it gives me the same slow AI, but with much faster cars (Sauber C9 vs. my Opel Astra Touring Car? REALLY?! Why don't you give me faster AI in the Mercedes CLK, Audi TT-R... blah blah blah.
When we select slower AI, it needs to be their skill level that changes, not their cars. And, when we talk about this "boost," sure, if you're two feet off of the car in front, you'll get a boost; that's called drafting. But, when I'm half a lap ahead of some noob, online, and he catches up, spins, and catches up again, because my car's steering has gone numb, and I've lost all sorts of grip, I can't help but think that the boost feature is pointless.
This "rubber banding" feature, as used online (in open lobbies) or offline, does nothing except reward bad drivers with a fifteenth chance. If I had even a second chance, in my karting career, when my steering rod broke, and I could've avoided the wreck, and been the champion, (out of 200 drivers ranked, apparently,) I would already be racing Formula 1 cars, even right now, like Robbie Wickens, who went to the very same track.
Giving some noob a fifteenth chance in a race doesn't seem fair to the guy who actually finishes a clean, fast race.So, please, no "Rubber Banding," because it isn't realistic... at all.
Instead, as most people here are thinking, why not base the AI directly off of your own lap times? If they're in the same car, no matter what, the AI can run those exact lap times, through better programming.
But, giving more horsepower and grip to those who fall off of the pace is terrible. Need For Speed does that. End of that discussion.
I remember, back when I used to play Race Pro, the AI's hardest difficulty was always approximately a tenth of a second faster, or slower, except at Mid-Ohio and city circuits (because I'm awesome at city circuits.)
Why can't GT6's AI be fast enough to be within a second of me? Fact is, I've beaten GT5's AI, while the AI was in a Zonda LM Race car, while I was in the new DLC Honda. The Zonda is much more powerful, and much faster! I was on racing hards, so was the Zonda! Why?!?! How is it possible?
The only answer, is because GT5's AI is way too slow, for me, but, still way too fast for the 12 year olds that play GT5.
But, to prove that it's possible, Race Pro's AI was horrendously slow, on its lowest difficulty, (I couldn't even complete a race, I got bored, and went back to up the difficulty) and was within a tenth of a second, in qualifying, at any given race track. I qualified approximately 12th, in a field of 16 cars, everytime, and my average finish was something like 6th.
Now, there's a good AI system. But, my god, I wish it were even faster, at the city circuits.Funniest, most quotable post ever.
"Lewis, Massa is catching you. You know what will happen if he catches you" (these are my thoughts, circa last year)
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ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
Who screws up in a Codies game? You rarely even have to brake...
One less thing to worry about
- 1,085
- Dutchietown
- Odnomre
No, please no. I remember in NFS where the cars behind me were able to do 30 KM/H extra than the fastest car in the game could do when fully tuned. Just make the AI more aggressive, and make them less sticky to their line. I hate being pushed out of a corner because I brake early and the AI just pushes me into the gravel.
Prototyp3
(Banned)
- 397
- Oregon
No rubber banding please.
I want the lead I earned to count and mean something.
They should strive to improve the AI.
If all else fails add the ability to select difficulty before the race allowing for better rewards as you increase the difficulty.
Maybe a platinum trophy for the event after doing golds on all difficulty levels and then beating the final super hard difficulty, let's call it, master level, or something.
I want the lead I earned to count and mean something.
They should strive to improve the AI.
If all else fails add the ability to select difficulty before the race allowing for better rewards as you increase the difficulty.
Maybe a platinum trophy for the event after doing golds on all difficulty levels and then beating the final super hard difficulty, let's call it, master level, or something.
- 478
- Ontario
- nascarfn
- 5,603
- England, Warwickshire
- GTP_Sigma
Rubber Banding is a dreadful fix for uncompetitive racing. It was used online initially for GT5P in order to give people starting in last a chance of victory. In that sense it was successful but it created more problems than it solved.
What Kaz and his team didn't initially realise; people would much rather have a decent competitive race, than a race in which they can realistically win. It took a one on one interview from a GTP member (super fla) with Kaz to remove the rubber-banding effect in online racing.
There are quite a few problems with associated with introducing rubber-band AI. Having a race where the first 5 laps are largely irrelevant, and the result is usually determined by who has the fastest last sector, is pretty daft. Why would you want anything more than a two lap race, when the final sprint determines the winners?
There are much better ways to balance the racing, without reducing the quality of the racing. Try choosing a slower car.
What Kaz and his team didn't initially realise; people would much rather have a decent competitive race, than a race in which they can realistically win. It took a one on one interview from a GTP member (super fla) with Kaz to remove the rubber-banding effect in online racing.
There are quite a few problems with associated with introducing rubber-band AI. Having a race where the first 5 laps are largely irrelevant, and the result is usually determined by who has the fastest last sector, is pretty daft. Why would you want anything more than a two lap race, when the final sprint determines the winners?
There are much better ways to balance the racing, without reducing the quality of the racing. Try choosing a slower car.
- 51
- Razgriz1972
harder AI is needed they need to make you work for overtakes, when i can use the same car as the AI (standard, no mods) and pass over half in a single lap of a reasonable track such as deep forest or fuji it is too easy. the best races are races where you don't chase down an opponent way ahead but where you are close most of the race
- 51
- Razgriz1972
- 2,119
- Somewhere only we know.
- FanofGT5
No thanks, i want to pass back markers if there is enough cars in the game like F1.
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
As I found out, two days ago, on iRacing, the best races are always races where you battle for 10+ laps, with a person who you think is a really fast girl. In short, though, when you-and the guy who's given a girl's account-pass each other every lap, and you win at the very end.
So, in short, what GT6 needs is AI that can actually return a pass, and keep a decent pace.
- 2,118
- Prague
- karelpipa
Agre totally. This would be better than GT5's AI, which brakes immediately when you are at their back and lets you pass.. So silly now.
I dont have any problem with AI which somehow find 2 seconds per lap from nowhere until they have cap to the speed they can go. For example set their default speed at 80% of car's capabilities, but once your car is faster they will set their speed up to lets say 110%, nothing more..
Or unveil selectable difficulty settings (lets say 10 levels), but with minimum required difficulty in certain championships (e.g. F1 Trophy only on 10th level, but sunday cup either on 1st or 10th level).
I liked much the AI which was in ToCA 2 from 1998. It used rubber band technique in the right way. I mean if you were driving at very good pace with almost none mistakes, you could win. No one could get you. But if you were making some mistakes, even spinouts you must have been prepared for tough battles in the middle field.
And guess what, even if you finished 10th (1pt) after great recovery, you very much more satisfied with that, than 100 wins in any GT.
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- 4,549
- Australia
- 533
- Nova Scotia
Oh crap...I voted "yes" by total accident. I meant to say "no"...
I'm thinking that Rubber Band A.I. could ruin any game, even a pure arcade game if not used properly, but in my opinion, it just doesn't work for a game like Gran Turismo 5/6. A person can only set a certain lap time with a certain vehicle; you don't see a 5:30 lap time on the Ring from a car with 650PP very often...well, except the Chaparral 2J (I guess...); and if I saw that, I would probably consider the AI broken.
I would imagine the more skilled drivers adjusting the PP of a car...let's say the field is made up of ~560PP supercars; I would adjust what upgrades were on my car, as well as power and weight to that the car had 530-540PP, for example. Then, if the field's running Sports Soft tires, I'll put them (or, if I'm feeling a little hardcore, Sports Medium) on my car as well. That way, I have a tough battle ahead of me and getting into first place through this kind of field is well worth the reward.
I'm also thinking GT6 should have a PP restriction for every race in the game as well (like the more recent Seasonals), to ensure that the game has some difficulty to it. How many races have I been allowed to enter my X2011 Prototype into so far? I have no idea, but I think this should be considered intolerable; it makes the races way too easy for me, and I'll admit to actually doing this instead of giving myself a legitimate challenge.
Maybe rubber band AI isn't what this game wants; I guess it wants PP and/or tire restrictions for every race in the game...except the X1 League if that's possible.
I'm thinking that Rubber Band A.I. could ruin any game, even a pure arcade game if not used properly, but in my opinion, it just doesn't work for a game like Gran Turismo 5/6. A person can only set a certain lap time with a certain vehicle; you don't see a 5:30 lap time on the Ring from a car with 650PP very often...well, except the Chaparral 2J (I guess...); and if I saw that, I would probably consider the AI broken.
I would imagine the more skilled drivers adjusting the PP of a car...let's say the field is made up of ~560PP supercars; I would adjust what upgrades were on my car, as well as power and weight to that the car had 530-540PP, for example. Then, if the field's running Sports Soft tires, I'll put them (or, if I'm feeling a little hardcore, Sports Medium) on my car as well. That way, I have a tough battle ahead of me and getting into first place through this kind of field is well worth the reward.
I'm also thinking GT6 should have a PP restriction for every race in the game as well (like the more recent Seasonals), to ensure that the game has some difficulty to it. How many races have I been allowed to enter my X2011 Prototype into so far? I have no idea, but I think this should be considered intolerable; it makes the races way too easy for me, and I'll admit to actually doing this instead of giving myself a legitimate challenge.
Maybe rubber band AI isn't what this game wants; I guess it wants PP and/or tire restrictions for every race in the game...except the X1 League if that's possible.
