Rubber banding

[Aloha62_2]

I would like the AI to work closely with the more involved 'career' that PD has mentioned. The game would have a base AI made to the most realistic standard that time, money and CPU capacity allows, but within that there are persona's.

Let's say that there are 100 or so persona's available for the game to choose from randomly for each race, each with different capabilities depending on the track and type of car.

So instead of rubber banding there is a chance that the player will be up against a outstanding driver or two on that given track pushing that type of car is faster then what a normal AI driver would be able too, at the same time there would be persona's who struggle with that combination fleshing out the hopefully larger grids. For each race the game would pick a AI opponent who is best matched to challenge you and would be your main rival in theory pushing you to the end.

'Bugger, iam up against Bob McBobinson, he's awesome with FR's on high speed tracks'.

Obviously if the base AI isnt good enough then we will probably end up with a bit of rubber banding which will be a shame.

 

[omnibusse]

I prefer AI level depending on player's experience

 

[Lain]

Rubber banding is the extremely lazy way of making the AI competitive and doesn't belong in any game trying to go for even the slightest sense of realism.

If I race against a bunch of Volkswagen Beetles with a Bugatti Veyron, I should utterly crush them, not have the competition suddenly become Super-Beetles that are able to keep up with me.

 

[Crispy9001]

Get rid of rubber banding and have more realistic difficulty options that increase your credit earnings with the AI's skill level and car tuning extensitivity more adjacent to yours, tire/fuel wear, higher # of laps, and dynamic yet random time/weather change. A much better game with that.

 

[thelvynau]

Rubber banding is the extremely lazy way of making the AI competitive and doesn't belong in any game trying to go for even the slightest sense of realism.

If I race against a bunch of Volkswagen Beetles with a Bugatti Veyron, I should utterly crush them, not have the competition suddenly become Super-Beetles that are able to keep up with me.

That would be awesome to see.

Super bugs smashing a Veyron lol.

 

[r3dnekteddybear]

I would have to say NOOOOOOOOOOOOO...........

 

[Earth]

I agree. Rubber banding AI is very arcadey and does not belong in a game that aims for realism.

I dont believe it belongs in any racing game. Its just an excuse for lazy AI programming.

For example in Motorstorm I cant build a big lead so any time I crash 3 or 4 guys pass me. This really isn't any fun towards the end of a race when you have no time to make up the positions. In a non-rubber band world I should have already built up a lead big enough to make up for any error in my driving.

 

[Crispy9001]

I dont believe it belongs in any racing game. Its just an excuse for lazy AI programming.

For example in Motorstorm I cant build a big lead so any time I crash 3 or 4 guys pass me. This really isn't any fun towards the end of a race when you have no time to make up the positions. In a non-rubber band world I should have already built up a lead big enough to make up for any error in my driving.

Yes, you should be rewarded for doing well in any video game (unless you're playing like a pro in a beginner difficulty level) and should legitimately gain knowledge and understanding of the game to do well without the game letting you try to win without much effort on your part.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

I dont believe it belongs in any racing game. Its just an excuse for lazy AI programming.

For example in Motorstorm I cant build a big lead so any time I crash 3 or 4 guys pass me. This really isn't any fun towards the end of a race when you have no time to make up the positions. In a non-rubber band world I should have already built up a lead big enough to make up for any error in my driving.

You can still beet motor storm, as long as you perfect your path. What you people seem to be forgetting every game uses rubber banding , GT5 does to , why the hell do the AI cars slow down when they pass you but don't ever seem to speed up when there behind.. theses different formulas , in gt5 what i would hope they did is enable tuning options similar to the ones you have , not place me with cars that are in that pp by default as they usually are faster , or to slow..

 

[SagarisGTB]

The reason GT2 is my least favorite GT game was because of the highly excessive rubber banding. It ruined the game for me.

So no, no rubber banding whatsoever, please.

 

[QuikSlvr223]

I think it should depend on the race. For regular races, have it kind of implemented, have them speed up or slow down just a little to keep it competitive and interesting. But for longer races and enduros, have none whatsoever.

 

[QuikSlvr223]

The reason GT2 is my least favorite GT game was because of the highly excessive rubber banding. It ruined the game for me.

So no, no rubber banding whatsoever, please.

I actually found it fun. I was always able to beat it, so that's probably why.

 

[BKGlover]

When I think rubber-banding, I think of arcade racers. Burnout and Mario Kart, for example, when you crash/get hit once, you fall from the lead to mid-pack.

The only rubber-banding I ever see in GT games are the cars capabilities. GT1 and GT2 were pretty bad about having low end cars perform with the ones higher up, i.e. a Vits/Yaris able to run with a S13 in any form. Hell, I justified it in those two as the competition not simply bringing stock equipment, mainly because that was backed-up by the line-ups showing HP rating a fair amount higher than stock, and the fact they only caught up at the points I knew I was slow. GT3 and GT PSP(for obvious reasons) are light offenders if at all, GT4 felt like what I said for 2 and 3, and the GT5 AI does use different personas, most likely randomly generated, that take care of some of this issue, but not all.

OT: No. NO. NO! Absolutely not! Rubber-banding is not only lazy, it is a fake difficulty curve tacked on to whatever you're playing. Juiced is the ultimate console example of this, as any arcade-cabinet racer has to make money somehow, in that not only does the AI rubber-band in a normal race, but when you bet against a driver, they become Michael Shumacher and are all over you, even the ones that suck. As if THAT wasn't bad enough, there's a THIRD rubber-band. When you aren't racing, and put money on a driver, THAT driver become Eric McClure, resulting in a guaranteed loss.

 

[eran0004]

I think that they are on the right track with the B-spec AI, who gets more "hot" as they're under more pressure and cools off when they're alone. It's not perfect, but it's one approach to getting a more realistic AI. When they're hot they're not just faster, but also more prone to make mistakes, and mistakes is something I've been missing from the GT5 AI (except for Bob, Bob always knows how to make a proper mess of things).

 

[Scuderia Paul]

Should it be in GT6 yes or no, This is the only way we can get competitive AI racing.. GT 1-3 had it

Rubber Banding has no place in GT6. We have endured crap AI in GT for long enough and GT6 must have a completely new model. Also, it is not the only way to have competitive AI. Does anybody remember ToCA Race Driver 3 on PS2 - Competitive independent AI which had some of the best racing in any console racing title ever.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Rubber Banding has no place in GT6. We have endured crap AI in GT for long enough and GT6 must have a completely new model. Also, it is not the only way to have competitive AI. Does anybody remember ToCA Race Driver 3 on PS2 - Competitive independent AI which had some of the best racing in any console racing title ever.

Race Driver 3's AI was weird. It would run at one pace when in well in front of you. Once you managed to get within a few seconds of them(well before close enough to attempt any moves) they would slow down drastically making it difficult to not plow into them like you do with the pokey GT AI. Then once they got behind you they seemed to be the fastest of all, attempting to take the corners at phenomenal speed with little to no regard for whether they would smash into you and destroy your car or send you flying off track in the process. Then once you got a second or two in front of them, they would resume their original pace before you got close to them.

It seems like a nice idea if you could get it right. Run steady, get a bit worried and defensive when someone gets close, run hard to try to get past someone if you're close behind, go back to trying to be clean and efficient if you aren't close enough to fight for the spot. But it was more like: run steady, slow way down to let the guy behind catch up, attempt to run him off the road, run steady again if he gets away.

I don't recall noticing any classic rubber banding in that game though. Honestly I'd gladly take that AI over GT5's any day. Loved that game. Despite it's faults I was gutted to see the series die, would have loved to see it further developed - including that AI technique. While there were many things it didn't do nearly as well as GT, I still saw it as an example of what GT would be if GT was for race fans instead of for car fans. If only we got RD4 with refined AI and better physics... instead we got "Racedriver" GRID.

 

[BKGlover]

I'm sorry,but what the hell is wrong with GRID? I won't go ballistic this time but if you say what most do, I have a picture for you.

 

[Anathema]

I have had enough rubber banding AI to last me a lifetime, a result of playing Mario Kart Wii obesssively (ok, laugh) since 2008, up until late 2012.

GT6 does not need this feature, and there is no reason why it should be in any game - if you are faster and better, then there should be no reason why you can't increase a lead. This isn't a arcade racer with factors that can make you lose first in an instant (specifically MKW, with items). In that game, items and randomness is what keeps it fun.

Wouldn't make something like the GT series fun, I know that.

 

[Morgoth_666]

I'm sorry,but what the hell is wrong with GRID? I won't go ballistic this time but if you say what most do, I have a picture for you.

I quite enjoyed GRID myself. Very very intense experience and did some things quite well. The damage was great and the touches like tire stacks coming apart and getting debris stuck under your car and all was quite fun. I also liked they way they let you handle a team(a little), and the variety of events. Some people claimed it was too easy even on the hardest levels but I'm not that good and didn't rely on trying to plow through the field in the first three corners any more than absolutely necessary so it was good for me on a notch or two down.

It just wasn't exactly the RD4 that RD3 got me so excited for. It was a bit more relaxed than I'd prefer, with none of the extensive configuration options I loved so much. The inability to make longer races in the career mode bothered me as well, since I don't find 5-10 minute races that much fun. After running the 12 minutes of Le Mans 100 times I really would have liked to at least do the 24 minutes. Longer than that would be even nicer for me, but then they'd have had to add pit stops to do that. I think the longest I went was 2 hours at Le Mans which was really fun but eventually having no pit stops would get as wierd as GT4's 24 hours of 3pm. I like playing with setups too which you could not, and I don't really like the AI getting to drive cars you can't get(at least in career mode). There were also a few disciplines that seemed woefully underutilized, but the same was true of RD3, not to mention a certain game from PD.

And no I wasn't that crazy about the slightly "sexied-up" physics that let DPs run well over 200mph for example, or that seemed to make rolling through a tight corner from very high speed often faster than slowing down and accelerating out of it - although once you found the right point you could still get on the gas. I very much did like the fact that it was very hard to turn and brake at the same time, which many games even without ABS enabled have seemed to let you get away with. It was still fun, but I prefer the sort of driving feel you get from something like GT5 or rFactor. GRID seemed in a way to be actually a little bit like GT5 in that it tried to work across genres, with a very accessible driving model and no getting lost in tuning options combined with rewards for not using aids or flashbacks or for using cockpit view and the fact that the game was based on serious professional racing on proper tracks instead of dodging in and out of traffic while getting messages sent to you to advance some wacky story.

All in all I did quite enjoy it, enough so to beat it twice after finding out the hard way that you couldn't have multiple profiles on a PS3 account. I had a little fun online with it but didn't do too much and then they got their servers shut off before I went back to it. But it wasn't the real-world-racing sim I would have liked it to have been after dreaming of what might have been possible after finding the Race Driver series too late. Of course now I've heard the incredibly fun and intense cockpit view has been removed and the surprisingly fun demolition derby(that my buddy loved to play) has been removed rather than expanded so it seems GRID 2 has gone from an arcade-ish racer I'm actually eager to buy to being something I'll likely not touch.

So go ahead, post your picture if you like, and then everyone else can get back to arguing about rubber-banding.

 

[BKGlover]

So go ahead, post your picture if you like, and then everyone else can get back to arguing about rubber-banding.

No need, you explained yourself and your stance on the subject, to which I apologize for calling you out and agree that races need to be longer, the who game felt too short to me. The pic is reserved for those who go to the extremes. the quotes arond Race Driver set off a troll alarm. Again, I'm sorry.

OT: Still no.

 

[Yukon]

Absolutely not.

I was doing one of the A-Spec championships last night. On the first lap I flew by the guy that had the fastest car, besides mine. He was braking stupidly early when I was catching up to him before the overtake and would take silly amounts of time to speed up when he had exited the corner. After the first lap I had a 6.2 second lead...

For the next 4 laps of the race I didn't make up any more time on him, but he would occasionally make up a couple of tenths per lap, until the final lap where he made up over a second, totally out of nowhere. Point being, I don't want to be capable of increasing my lead over the opponents, but have it ruined because of warped AI. It's not something that should be included in the game.

 

[greenchile505]

Well, I've read five pages of 'yes, rubber banding' and 'no thanks", and I saw one mention of Codemasters' AI.

What surprises me is a lack of mention of other games/sims with good AI. I think we need to set the bar for Poliphony. We need to let them know which sims have AI we like and enjoy.

(I think it should be said that I read somewhere that GT5 AI follows a popular Japanese gaming model where you start in last and keep advancing past weaker opponents. That is not racing. It may be good for Final Fantasy MCXXVIII, but I don't think it makes for competitive racing. I don't know anyone who enjoys GT5 Career more than Multiplayer or Time Trial. I'd rather race my own ghost than GT5's AI "levels".)

I've been driving sims for many, many years, and I have seen very few sims with great AI. The top two that come to mind are (in order of greatness) 1) "GTR2" (SimBin, 2006) and 2) "Grand Prix Legends" (Papyrus, 1998). There were a few others with decent, competitive AI. Please add to the list.

What is great about GTR2's AI is you can change it by 1 percent increments. After several months of driving I found 112% works for me. 111% was a bit easy and 113% was a tad too difficult. What is too difficult? I would lose a 0.2 - 0.6 seconds a lap on what were close to perfect laps for me. So, when set to 112%, I would only lose time if I put a tire on the grass and I could gain time by driving really well or when the AI was not perfect.

I wonder if anyone else has had similar experience..

Cheers.

 

[05XR8]

Well, one good thing about GT5 AI, they don't leave the race after the first corner melee like online "racers"!

 

[Strittan]

To answer the poll question. No, no, no and NO! Most pathetic thing invented in racing games.