russia and iraq

[milefile]

Originally posted by rjensen11
Yeah, M5Power, now we're finally agreeing on something! The thing about NATO is that they can kick you out when they want. Let's say NATO was around pre-WW2.

Germany, Austria/Hungary, and Italy would have been kicked out originally, and I guess the US would have joined earlier. Who knows what would have happened then, because, honestly, once the US get's going, we've never really quit, except for Nam, but we didn't actually 'go to war', officially.

That technicality is stupid, man. The US has only "officially" declared was twice: the world wars. Viet Nam was a war and we lost. Pure and simple. All we can do is be gratefull that what was at stake wasn't American's freedom.

America goes to war about every 15 years. It's sad. We're a warrior nation, an aggressive republic. What other countries have military bases all over the world? Do you see Brittish bases in America? Our weapons are everywhere, controlling the world. I don't blame certain groups for hating us. I would too. But only if I wasn't an American, which I am, and proud to be. I love living in and being a citizen of the sole Superpower. Nobody in the world could beat us in a war. We have the capability to fight two major wars simultaneously. But one thing I worry about is the judgement of our leaders and the possibility of sending civilization into a tailspin with all that power. We're the only ones who could do that. If we piss enough people off we could be in real trouble.

Rome, the second greatest civization in history, after America, was not defeated by an enemy in a war. It was defeated from within by corruption, arrogance, bad judgement, and, you gussed it, the ancient equivalent of terrorism, the Barbarians. Who are now, ironicaly, our allies.

And this is the the important thing that I think most people don't comprehend: civilization has risen and fallen many times in the history of humanity, all over the world, in different ways. American's gravest mistake (and surely all those other civilizations, too) is the assumption that we are the end of the line, the pinnacle and final stage of human achievement. Ancient Egypt thought that. China thought that. Alexandrian Greece thought it and Rome did too (Greece and Rome were also Democracies). We are just the next step in succession, a chapter in the history books. Our 200 year or so history is a blink of an eye in the big picture.

I have no fear for the long term future of the world. Humanity will live to see the death of Earth and live on in the Universe. But America? It'll be kitch soon enough. Enjoy the ride.

 

[vat_man]

I think the biggest danger to the US medium to long term is what I perceive as the lack of ownership of the government by the citizenry there. The US has got to be the best argument for compulsory voting I ever saw.

 

[rjensen11]

Yeah, we're lazy slobs, so we don't generally like to go out and vote if we don't have to.

Let's see all the times US has used military action before:

American Revolution
American/Mexican war
War of 1812
Civil War
WW1
WW2
Korea
Nam
Persian Gulf
Yugoslavia
Afganistan

We never really fought in the Cold War, did we? It was basically just a show, and we all thought ducking under tables would save us. Funny if you look at those films now...

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by vat_man
I think the biggest danger to the US medium to long term is what I perceive as the lack of ownership of the government by the citizenry there. The US has got to be the best argument for compulsory voting I ever saw.

.

It really is pathetic. Americans expect democracy, as if they are entitled to it, as if it should be served up on a frickin silver platter in bed. There is no comprehension of what was sacrificed for America to exist, and for other democracies to live. And then they sit around and criticize the government they could've had a say in. What is happening right now in Florida makes me sick. They are trying to sue another politician into office, as if the vote is really just a formality and the real winner is the one who's lawers have the sharpest tongue. All this does is consolidate power in the hands of the few.

Sometimes I think America is in deep trouble. Sometimes I don't.

 

[Talentless]

My only contribution at this time is that I oppose majority voting for presidents. Not prepared to argue at this time, just stating a preference.

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Talentless
My only contribution at this time is that I oppose majority voting for presidents. Not prepared to argue at this time, just stating a preference.

I was actually referring to election of representatives - local members, if you will.

With regard to election of presidents/heads of state - that is a tough issue, and the election of a 'president' or 'Governor General' as the position is here in Australia (reporting to the Queen) is the major sticking point in the debate about Australia becoming a republic.

I have issues with Parliament electing the president, as they'll simply elect someone faithful to the cause of the majority party. I also have issues with the populace electing the president, as I'm terrified we'll see a similar scenario to the US presidential race and the whole thing degenerate into a multi-million dollar popularity contest.

The only alternative I can think of is parliament providing a list of at least two candidates for direct election by the public - whether that forms part of the parliamentary election cycle I don't know.

I guess the 'head of state' thing isn't that big here as it is in the US as parliament is the dominant law and policy setter both in a 'day to day' sense and also from a public perception point of view - the Governor General has only had to use their powers on one occasion - but people seem pretty happy with the current system, so with the defeat of the previous referendum on Australia becoming a republic this issue has gone on the back-burner (and with September 11 and the various illegal immigration issues of the last two years one might even say it's been tipped out of the pot and into the sink!).

I would be interested to know from our US members whether they have any access to their local representative at all.

I haven't done this in a while, but when I was living in Melbourne with my parents my father had regular contact with the local member on a number of issues - admittedly this fellow wasn't a minister or particularly senior, but he was approachable and very helpful.

milefile's comments are interesting - is there a general feeling of disassociation from 'elected representatives'?

I was a bit surprised to learn that if you're convicted of a felony you're no longer eligible to vote - is this true?

 

[1X83Z]

Just a side note... do you all know that more people voted for the final 'American Idol' show than did for president in 1999?

 

[rjensen11]

But M5, you didn't have to be 18 to vote for that, did you? I never paid attention to it(I don't even know what it's about, but since it was on TV, hey, you can call in as many times as you want)

And, also, people didn't have to get out of their houses to vote.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by rjensen11

And, also, people didn't have to get out of their houses to vote.