Russian tanks enter South Ossetia, Georgia declares war

[Greycap]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548715.stm

I don't know exactly what the hell is happening there but it surely doesn't look good. Russian jets are bombing Georgian towns, Georgian anti-air defences have downed two of the attackers, firefights are raging all around the borders and there are reports of around 150 Russian tanks entering the Georgian area. The Russian government still says they're not involved but I doubt the jets and tanks are moving on their own.

To make it worse, the Russians have had "peacekeepers" in South Ossetia for quite a while before this, equipping the Ossetians with Russian weaponry. Now those same peacekeepers have turned into full soldiers who were involved in firing the first shots into Georgian villages. Sounds fishy to me but I really hope it's only me. The last thing I want is Russia getting seriously angry towards its small neighbours.

 

[McLaren]

I haven't had a chance to read yet, but has Russia stated their reasons? Surely you'd have to some balls to start bombing another area without cause.

 

[Duke]

Uh oh - this is going to bear some watching. Thanks for posting.

 

[wrcsti]

Darn, I was going to Atlanta next week. May have to postone my event.

 

[Motominded]

Darn, I was going to Atlanta next week. May have to postone my event.

im already here.......ITS A CRAZY MAN

 

[G.T]

im already here.......ITS A CRAZY MAN

Oh... hope everything stays alright on your end.

 

[superberkut]

They would not stop talking about it on Canadian broadcasts of the opening ceremonies of the Olympics in Beijing. This, as Duke said, is something to watch. I did not fully understand the enormity of the situation until this article, though.

 

[Sureboss]

The last thing I want is Russia getting seriously angry towards its small neighbours.

Nothing new with Russia.

 

[socomplayer2]

im already here.......ITS A CRAZY MAN

Me too, a jet just bombed city call east! lol

On a serious note, I hope we (America) don't get involved. Its the last thing we need.

 

[YSSMAN]

I heard about it around 10AM today, to say the least, I was severely disappointed. I knew that Russia and Georgia weren't exactly getting along, but to start a war (when the Olympics are going on), that's a no-no.

I'm most-interested to see if the US backs up its commitment to democracy by giving rhetorical support to the Georgians, or if we just back off and let Russia do what they want. Either way, Georgia knows that they could be crushed within hours if Russia really wanted to play, but given that I hear they've already shot down two Russian planes... I'm impressed by their efforts.

Its not the start of WWIII, but I'm still disappointed.

 

[Loon]

I heard about it around 10AM today, to say the least, I was severely disappointed. I knew that Russia and Georgia weren't exactly getting along, but to start a war (when the Olympics are going on), that's a no-no.

I'm most-interested to see if the US backs up its commitment to democracy by giving rhetorical support to the Georgians, or if we just back off and let Russia do what they want. Either way, Georgia knows that they could be crushed within hours if Russia really wanted to play, but given that I hear they've already shot down two Russian planes... I'm impressed by their efforts.

Its not the start of WWIII, but I'm still disappointed.

During the opening ceremony of the Olympics, they said that it had been confirmed that Bush and Putin had discussed it to some degree.

 

[Danoff]

During the opening ceremony of the Olympics, they said that it had been confirmed that Bush and Putin had discussed it to some degree.

Not beforehand.

The U.S., NATO and the European Union have all called for an end to the fighting. President Bush and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin discussed the conflict Friday, the White House confirmed.

We've been trying to talk them down. It'll be interesting to me what we do with the Georgian request for us to transport their troops in Iraq home. That's an awfully loaded request.

As far as the conflict goes, it sounds like Russia is trying to reclaim some territory. Not a good sign.

 

[Omnis]

I haven't had a chance to read yet, but has Russia stated their reasons? Surely you'd have to some balls to start bombing another area without cause.

Georgia went to crack down on a separatist movement, and Russia stepped in to protect it.

 

[a6m5]

I'm not familiar with the Georgia-South Ossetia-Russia relations, but what I gather from the BBC report, this is a territorial struggle?

------------------------------------------------------

South Ossetia has been independent of Georgia, since the 90's.

South Ossetia is accusing Georgia of ethnic cleansing.

Georgia is trying to take back, or bring order to South Ossetia.

Georgia is trying to keep the Russians off South Ossetia.

Russia is trying to protect its citizens in South Ossetia.

------------------------------------------------------

I get the impression that Russia is being too aggressive here. Basically, they are recognizing South Ossetia as an independent nation, and that's causing the battle. According to Wiki, members of the U.N. considers South Ossetia as part of Georgia, so I do think the Russians(as a member of UN) need to back off here.

If you are trying to protect your citizens, you pull them out. You don't invade the country to pull your people out, unless they are being imprisoned or something.

Edit:

It'll be interesting to me what we do with the Georgian request for us to transport their troops in Iraq home. That's an awfully loaded request.

Very politial move. I had no idea there were Georgian troops in Iraq. Looks like it's 300 special forces troops? They made a wise investment, and looks like they are trying to cash it in early.

 

[YSSMAN]

As far as the conflict goes, it sounds like Russia is trying to reclaim some territory. Not a good sign.

My first thought was "who has an alliance with Georgia?" when I heard of it in the morning. As far as I can tell, they're fairly isolated as far as former Soviet republics (we're more closely associated with those of the Eastern Bloc), but that only makes it "easier" for Russia to roll in and take what they want. I mean, if they want to make the claim that Russians existing in the country are free to become a part of the motherland, it looks like they may as well invade Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan while they're at it.

Its a small conflict that can easily roll into a bigger one, and that's what scares me most.

 

[Tornado]

I dunno. I don't really see Russia steamrolling over everything. I think they are more likely to make an example of Georgia and then watch everyone else in the region fall in line (and then take care of those who don't). Putin is a very smart man, and I think he would view going after everyone to be a bad relations move (at least with this thing they can claim to be doing it for the sake of Russian citizens, not so if they decide to drive their tanks all over the region) on the world stage and a waste of Russian lives/military power.

 

[a6m5]

I dunno. I don't really see Russia steamrolling over everything. I think they are more likely to make an example of Georgia and then watch everyone else in the region fall in line (and then take care of those who don't). Putin is a very smart man, and I think he would view going after everyone to be a bad relations move (at least with this thing they can claim to be doing it for the sake of Russian citizens, not so if they decide to drive their tanks all over the region) on the world stage and a waste of Russian lives/military power.

From the reports, people are dying already. I think it's safe to say that this is way past bad relations move.

It is interesting that you put Putin in charge here though.

 

[Tornado]

From the reports, people are dying already. I think it's safe to say that this is way past bad relations move.

The "We did it for the safety of our people" excuse can withstand a lot of scrutiny with the way Russia and Georgia are at the moment. It couldn't withstand Russia rolling through the entire region like (forgive me) the Red Army.

It is interesting that you put Putin in charge here though.

He went from controlling half of the government to controlling half of the government. I don't see much of a difference. His new title even shares many of the same letters with his old one.

 

[a6m5]

The "We did it for the safety of our people" excuse can withstand a lot of scrutiny with the way Russia and Georgia are at the moment. It couldn't withstand Russia rolling through the entire region like (forgive me) the Red Army.

No, that would be invasion.

He went from controlling half of the government to controlling half of the government. I don't see much of a difference. His new title even shares many of the same letters with his old one.

That's what I mean. I think most outside observer wonders how much less role Putin actually play these days.

 

[Sureboss]

A member on another forum I go on originates from Georgia. Apparently one of the reason Russia is involved (ignoring the energy problems that have been going on), is that they have been giving Russian passports to those living in South Ossetia. Of course they then say that when Georgia attacks South Ossetia that they are attacking Russian citizens.

 

[Rainmaster]

Some men just want to watch the world burn

...................

 

[YSSMAN]

He went from controlling half of the government to controlling half of the government. I don't see much of a difference. His new title even shares many of the same letters with his old one.

Well, at least he got to wave "Hello!" to the Olympic teams of both Russia and Georgia while starting a war!

 

[Rainmaster]

war in pictures
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26090865/displaymode/1107/s/2/framenumber/1/

 

[magburner]

I've been following this on the news reports for a couple of days, and there is one aspect of this conflict that no one has yet mentioned - oil.

Georgia's Oil Pipeline Is Key To U.S. Support

Russia stages raid near key oil pipeline: Georgia

Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze told Georgian television: "The area of the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline was bombed by Russian planes. Miraculously, the pipeline was not damaged."

The Pipeline War: Russian bear goes for West's jugular

Their claims came after Russian jets struck deep into the territory of its tiny neighbour, killing civilians and ‘completely devastating’ the strategic Black Sea port of Poti, a staging post for oil and other energy supplies.

Further articles:

US has political, economic stake in far-flung spat

Russia anxious over grip on oil as US firms join Great Game

There is also something else to consider regarding this conflict. Georgia desperately wants to become a member of NATO, and (you can imagine with this action) that they intended to force the hand of America, into helping them. I don't know what plans the Georgian president had in his mind, but they seem to of blown up spectacularly in his face. He now faces a war with a resurgent superpower, and the prospect of being left isolated in a volatile region of the world.

Has Georgia Overreached in Ossetia?

But the Georgian leader's latest actions will be read by some as designed to force the hand of NATO members reluctant to press the issue of handing membership to Georgia for fear of provoking a Russian backlash. So, after a couple of days of skirmishing along the unofficial border between his forces and those of the separatists, the Georgian leader launched a full-blown invasion whose aim, his government said, was to "restore constitutional order," that is, control by the central government, in South Ossetia. Plainly, the offensive was a gamble, because Saakashvili should have had little doubt about Moscow's readiness to defend the separatists. Moreover, NATO officials had repeatedly warned the Georgian government against launching any attempt to resolve the dispute through military means. Still, he pressed forward.

 

[Dave A]

It's all a bit crazy what's going on. It looks like more countries will get involved at some point it's just a question of when and on what level.

I've just read that Russian forces ignored Tbilisi's announcment that they had called a ceasfire and bombed them anyway, the Russians are being very harsh in this whole ordeal and I feel sorry for the people in Georgia who have been attacked without provocation.

 

[YSSMAN]

This, at least in my opinion, is a good case-study for the effectiveness of organizations like the OSCE, NATO and the UN. So far, it hasn't done much. But, that being said, the military force exerted by Russia has been anything but stellar either. Considering this is their first major military exercise since, what, Afghanistan (?), they're a bit rusty...

If its all about oil, we'll likely see NATO try to step in and broker a deal. This isn't anything that the US/UK/France/Germany want to get their hands dirty with, but I'm quite certain that if we (the allies) wanted to lay our guns on the table, Russia would back down.

 

[a6m5]

So many hidden agendas, from everyone involved.

 

[YSSMAN]

The interesting thing is that most of the Georgian troops are US-trained soldiers, in many cases using American weapons, not to mention the surplus American uniforms and equipment. I'm not sure to what extent the American weaponry is being utilized, but the fact that they (Georgia) have been able to put up a good fight is astounding. Either the Russians aren't trying hard enough or the Georgians are that good.

 

[Leonidae]

.. or then they have nothing to lose, just like certain another country about 60 years ago.

 

[magburner]

If its all about oil, we'll likely see NATO try to step in and broker a deal. This isn't anything that the US/UK/France/Germany want to get their hands dirty with, but I'm quite certain that if we (the allies) wanted to lay our guns on the table, Russia would back down.

Russia isn't going to back down in its own back yard, guns on the table or not. Its going to take direct action. So what is America going to do? With two conflicts on the go, and another possibly in waiting, is America ready to step into a proxy war with a former superpower?

Russia has a very strong hand, too strong maybe, for for the West to challenge. On to of that, America needs Russia's influence with countries like Iran and North Korea. You can also be sure that China will align itself with Russia on this matter too. Is America going to destroy relations with Russia and possibly China over a tiny country (with an oil pipeline), in a forgotten part of the world?

Russia is not entirely innocent in this affair though, they may have been manipulating things in their favour, but you have to remember that it was Georgia who initiated combat, and not Russia. Starting a war against all good advice and then running off crying when it goes pear shaped is no way for any nation to act.

I don't envy America's position either - they seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand they have to be seen to support an ally, but on the other hand, they have to be mindful of the wider implications that this conflict represents.

I was also very surprised by some of the comments that George Bush made regarding Russia's attacks on Georgia. He used words like 'disproportional', and 'sovereign'. A few years ago, Israel invaded Lebanon and exacted disproportional revenge for the kidnapping of a couple of Israeli soldiers, and Bush thought that was acceptable. He also mentioned that Russia had no right attacking a sovereign state, yet 5 or 6 years ago, America invaded Iraq - a sovereign state. I fail to see the difference between this current conflict and those that have gone before. If you want to lead, lead by example, not by rhetoric.