Russian tanks enter South Ossetia, Georgia declares war
- Thread starter Greycap
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the Interceptor
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Saw this footage too, and I was amazed that noone was seriously hurt here. However, they later said that these guys were not shot at by Russians, rather than a South-Ossetian guerilla group. That changes the whole story a bit, because the guerillas could be out to blame the Russians to destabilize the fresh peace.
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It was posted just a few posts back.
How many press agents have been shot or shot at? A lot. Russians will shoot anything that isn't in Russian uniform.
How many press agents have been shot or shot at? A lot. Russians will shoot anything that isn't in Russian uniform.
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- nk4e
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"Let the Europeans handle it." In other words, pour fuel on the hot ashes, throw a match and then disappear from the scene because it wasn't that fun anymore when it got out of hands and burned down the house?
All the Americans trying to speak politically to save their own hide in a conflict they're spurred is seriously beginning to disgust me. If the Yanks cause the Russians to go steamrolling over eastern Europe they'd better be here to help us before there's no Finland, no Estonia, no Latvia, you name it. Not a single big mouthed American politician is going to fight the "liberators" but I will be sent to the front line during the first week if the war begins here.
We've heard a lot of boasting how America will help the small countries in case of a conflict and save the world, in reality they're cowards hiding somewhere while our countries are wiped off the maps as now seen in Georgia. Saying something unfortunately doesn't equal doing it and I seriously hope I don't have to lose my home, my country, even my life fighting a war some militaristic American with an overly big ego has caused to begin.
Note: this wasn't a rant towards the nationals of the countries mentioned, only a rant towards their leaders. "America" equals White House and "Russia" equals Kreml. I know both nice Americans and nice Russians but the leaders of both countries are class A lunatics.
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Robin
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Do you notice how when theres either no significant oil fields in the country or plenty of expats to save every country doesn't touch the situation with a barge pole... No EU countries (apart from France) or the US wants to get involved because theres more to upset and nothing to gain... it does literally seems like most countries want Russia and Georgia to 'fight it out themselves' which I think is tragic... I expected to see the whole UN force descend the minute the crisis happened but NO.....
Robin
Robin
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See:
- The Balkans
- Darfur
- Tibet
- Burma
- Zimbabwe
...etc...
Its something to be expected (at least for me). I think its nice that we here in the US are at least giving the proper rhetorical support to Georgia (Germany is too?), but nevertheless, we wouldn't go in to help unless everyone else goes in. I really wouldn't think that would happen at this moment.
As far as the UN is concerned, as the motto here in the AQ Poli Sci department goes "organizations are only as strong as strong states make them." If only the US and Germany are going to sign on to fight, France wants peace, the UK is staying out of it, and it involves Russia... You bet your ass it isn't going to get far in the Security Council.
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RE: Greycap, letting Europe fight
I don't mean anything bad by what I had said, but nevertheless, I'm in the group of Americans who know that many of the states in Europe are well equipped to fight a war with Russia (as paid for by the United States), and with an increasing amount of European states wishing to act on their own and defend democracy in their own way... Why not allow Europe to take care of this event that is happening right in their own backyard?
Worse comes to worse, the US would get involved. To paraphrase Churchill, Americans will do what is right after exhausting every other option. In the face of Russia, however, it seems likely that cooperate action with our NATO allies wouldn't be too much of a problem. That is, if it ever came to it...
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This part of the article also caught my attention:TIMESONLINE
I'm glad to see that these "additional powers" conditionally expire. Part about Russians preparing to recognize independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia made me think. I wonder if the West would cut their losses, and use this as a political chip. Russians can recognize all they want, but I'm sure they'd be happier if the West recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia's independence as well.
Part of the article that made me shake my head was this:
Maybe he really was tricked into all this by the Russians, I don't think we'll ever know. Unless some document popup like 40 years from now about how all this was drawn up by Putin's boys. But the fact is, he was intent on taking back the control of South Ossetia. And that blowing up in his face, he can not blame on NATO or the U.S.
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Well equipped unfortunately doesn't mean we have the sheer volume of men and equipment to take on the Russians. Finland is a good example of that, our fighter squadrons are equipped with the excellent F-18C but we have a whopping 63 of them. The Russians have a couple of thousands of MiGs to deploy. Our tank equipment consists of 124 Leopard 2A4 battle tanks and 45 CV9030 assault tanks while the Russians have, again, a couple of thousands of tanks to deploy. Better training and better equipment means nothing in cases like this. That's why I'd like somebody else to help us out of a situation that same "someone" has cooked if it's necessary but I doubt it happening because as Dave A said, it's economy that counts and cheap oil is more important than a couple of small countries on the Russian borders.
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Here is Pat Buchanan's take: http://buchanan.org/blog/2008/08/pjb-blowback-from-bear-baiting/
Sphinx
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the Interceptor
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Now that both sides have agreed to the ceasefire, it would be nice of the Russians to actually leave Georgia and do so without leaving chaos behind.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/17/georgia.russia.war/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/17/georgia.russia.war/index.html
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Well, if Georgia Wasn't Enough, What About Poland?
Its the missile shield that is going to cause a problem, we'll have to see how Russia tries to play ball. I doubt that they are stupid enough to attack a NATO member, but either way, its a bit scary that they'd even consider it.
The Huffington Post
Its the missile shield that is going to cause a problem, we'll have to see how Russia tries to play ball. I doubt that they are stupid enough to attack a NATO member, but either way, its a bit scary that they'd even consider it.
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Well, if it's the "consideration", probably both Russians & Americans have considered nuking everyone outside the alliance. In case of a full scale nuclear war, it was understood that both Superpowers had plan(s) to hit everyone with their nukes.
Joining missile defense shield would probably guarantee that Russians would hit you with something in case of such nuclear shootout.
Joining missile defense shield would probably guarantee that Russians would hit you with something in case of such nuclear shootout.
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You have to say that the timing of the signing of this new missile shield agreement/treaty is truly remarkable, in more ways that one... Sections of the media have mentioned Putin's "paranoia" about the possibility that these events are being orchestrated by a Neo-Conservative agenda in the US, hellbent on keeping Russia in their place now and for a good long while into the future... It doesn't seem all that paranoid to me, though. However much I hope that countries like Georgia and Ukraine should be able to choose their own paths, and serve their own interests first, it seems unlikely given that the US and Russia are happy to use these states as pawns in their own "Great Game"... and however much well-meaning Euro states might applaud "democracy" and Georgia's "right" to independence etc., we shouldn't also forget that there are power-brokers (namely the US and Russia) who don't really give a damn who or what controls Georgia, just so long as they fall down on their side of the fence when all is said and done...
Danoff
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I don't think that's fair - in more ways than one. First, you spout US and Russia in the same breath as though we had as much to do with this as Russia. The US isn't dropping bombs or killing people over there. In fact, I can't remember the last time the US did something so blatantly expansionist. (And no, Iraq doesn't even come close) I think it's a big mistake to treat the US as being on equal moral footing as Russia.
Edit: And secondly, you assume that the US doesn't really care what the government structure is like as long as that government favors us. Again, I completely disagree. We may tolerate a non-hostile totalitarian government, but Americans are firm believers in every human being's right to representation in his/her government - or at least we used to be.
And yet... missiles seem so very different than representative government.
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Danoff
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Does every thread have to be about how much people hate America and American policy? Russia has invaded a nation and brutally killed people and we have to discuss how evil America is?
Not to mention the fact that I don't see how this statement is even remotely related to mine. What does US foreign policy have to do with the reasoning used to determine that human beings have a right to representation in their government? What does any nation's foreign policy have to do with that?
The criticism was that Americans don't care about the rights of others as long as the nation in question supports us. My response to that is the same as my response to you above - no nation's foreign policy (including the US) has any impact on whether or not human beings are entitled to representation.
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Because historical precedent states that it typically works out essentially exactly as Touring Mars stated, because regardless of whether or not Americans believe everyone is entitled to self rule, government policies rarely cross paths with what the people actually want.
No, it doesn't. But in the past actions by various countries in history have had a direct effect on whether or not said people are able to act out on said rights. Its really great that everyone is entitled to the right of self rule. I truly mean that. However, that means exactly nothing if they aren't able to act on said rights. I really don't get why you even brought this part up at all:
Because it has little bearing on the Russia/Georgia mess either, especially if you are sympathetic with those of South Ossetia.Danoff
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Part of the problem with this entire issue is that we as Americans no longer have the moral high ground when it comes to brokering deals like this. When Bush gets up and talks about how "bullying isn't tolerated in the 21st century" and that "nations do not invade other nations," you know something isn't quite "clicking" like it used to.
That all being said, I'm well within the realm of placing all of the blame for what is going on solely on the shoulders of Russia at this point. I mean, lets be honest, they're paranoid about a small country like Georgia joining NATO? They're worried about a missile defense system that could very well protect them from an attack as well?
Historically speaking, Russia is a very paranoid country. They're obsessed with the idea that we're all out to get them, that we're going to invade, and consequently that they need some kind of buffer between them and everyone else to feel "safe." That is why we saw so many states gobbled up during the Cold War, and that likely explains why they are freaking out as their former republics rush off to join the EU and NATO for economic and military protection from their former overlords.
The problem here is that at one point the missile shield program was working towards including Russia in the deal. We would have the missiles in Poland, controlled by NATO, and we'd use Russian radar stations in Azerbaijan to keep an eye on the skies. I cannot recall if it was the Americans or the Russians who killed the deal off (its been nearly a year since I wrote the 20 page paper on it for school), but nevertheless, we're both getting the short end of the stick for the way it has worked out.
On the one hand, Russia has no room to talk. These are independent states who can do as they please... On the other, we have to consider the repercussions of removing their own first strike/second strike capability, essentially creating an arms race to offset those who were there to offset the powers in the first place. The odd thing is, they're not even there to protect Europe from Russia, the main intent as I recall was to cover their backside from missile attacks that would come from "rouge states" like Iran or whoever.
Either way, I don't think Russia is stupid enough to start a war over it... But I'd hate to see what would happen if I am wrong.
That all being said, I'm well within the realm of placing all of the blame for what is going on solely on the shoulders of Russia at this point. I mean, lets be honest, they're paranoid about a small country like Georgia joining NATO? They're worried about a missile defense system that could very well protect them from an attack as well?
Historically speaking, Russia is a very paranoid country. They're obsessed with the idea that we're all out to get them, that we're going to invade, and consequently that they need some kind of buffer between them and everyone else to feel "safe." That is why we saw so many states gobbled up during the Cold War, and that likely explains why they are freaking out as their former republics rush off to join the EU and NATO for economic and military protection from their former overlords.
The problem here is that at one point the missile shield program was working towards including Russia in the deal. We would have the missiles in Poland, controlled by NATO, and we'd use Russian radar stations in Azerbaijan to keep an eye on the skies. I cannot recall if it was the Americans or the Russians who killed the deal off (its been nearly a year since I wrote the 20 page paper on it for school), but nevertheless, we're both getting the short end of the stick for the way it has worked out.
On the one hand, Russia has no room to talk. These are independent states who can do as they please... On the other, we have to consider the repercussions of removing their own first strike/second strike capability, essentially creating an arms race to offset those who were there to offset the powers in the first place. The odd thing is, they're not even there to protect Europe from Russia, the main intent as I recall was to cover their backside from missile attacks that would come from "rouge states" like Iran or whoever.
Either way, I don't think Russia is stupid enough to start a war over it... But I'd hate to see what would happen if I am wrong.
