RX7 fastest!?

[4DSC]

Key word "tuned" there, so my cars are allowed to be tuned as well?

Yeah, but the real question is, can they be, and is the aftermarket there?

But lets talk stock vs stock, if you can show me one, just one N/A Japananese car in all history that would lap as quick as the Corvette Z06 C6 or HSV GTS, then I'll admit they're all they're cracked up to be.

Does the new GTR count, around the Ring?
HSV GTS? Isn't that a big heavy sports sedan from down under? Doing fast laps? Never heard of it. Im gonna go do some research.

Key words "stock" and "naturally aspirated". Then I'll ask you forced induction, the Corvette ZR1 about to reach production- over 600hp, way over. One car, even forced induction that could ever consider beating that or even challenging that from Japan, even around a track.

Hey hey hey, it's not all about power now. Honestly, I think with all that power, the ZR1 still won't beat the 7:37 the new GTR set around the Ring. I think it's too much power. Might even mess up the time the Z06 set. The Z06 sits at 7:42 and definatly out powers and underweighs the new Skyline. Could it be a better chassis on the GTR to knock off 5 seconds like that? Possible. Thats just me though.

And find me any manufacturer in the world that releases engines with potential like the ones in the Skyline and Supra, with the budget involved. They build their cars like their engines. Nuff said.

Edit: Here I was doing some checking and look what I found.

Wakefield Park Lap times
BMW M3 CSL 01:07.94
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VIII 01:10.34
Lotus Elise 111R 01:10.50
BWM 645Ci 01:11.09
Audi RS6 01:11.44
Subaru Impreza WRX STi 01:12.00
HSV GTS 01:12.16
Subaru Impreza WRX 01:12.65
Audi S4 01:13.41
Subaru Liberty GT 01:13.66
Chrysler Crossfire 01:14.35
P.S a GTS Coupe has a best time at this track of 1:11.81
There was also 13 more cars but we don't wanna go into all them.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/car-comparison/407-hsv-gts-vs-honda-nsx.html

Pretty fast, Im impressed. I didn't even know about these cars. Im about to play with it in GT4.. Still didn't beat the EVO tho

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

That's the old GTS, the new one has 307kw and MRC on a much better chassis. I also noted that every Japanese car there is Turbo. As for the ZR1, haven't you been reading about it? It has way wider tyres to put that power down, a more precise MRC suspension system and the brakes on the front of a 599GTB are the same size as the ones on the rear of the ZR1. I hope they take it to Nurburger, I wouldn't be surprised in the least bit by a 7.30 lap time or quicker. So which naturally aspirated cars can beat either GTS or Z06? And you think Japanese cars have potential? GM is the very definition of potential and bang for your buck. Many cars do what they do well, which is why you can't really compare alot of cars, what Japan needs turbos to do, we do aspirated, keep that in mind.

 

[4DSC]

Why does it matter turbo or not? You make it seem as if NA is better in some way? No displacement for replacement or how ever that line goes lol.. Messed up weight distribution with those heavy things and worse fuel economy is all that gets. Primitive ideas. How about you try and get as much power as you can get out of an RB or a 2JZ, out of a GM safetly on a stock bottom end? It's just not happening. No bang for buck. You will have to turbo and modify things you never dreamed of to get that HP that high. All that extra work. And your still stuck with the V8 weight, producing as much power as the turbo straight 6. You can only go so much in power anyway before you turn the car into a dragster. Unnessacery in my book. Trust me. And still those giant engines are running the same 1/4 times turbo charged as the smaller displacement 6 cylinders. Funny cars, don't count.

The ZR1 can fiddle around with itself all it wants. Cars have done that in the past with almost no change in their laptime. I'll be looking at the results.

Many cars do what they do well, which is why you can't really compare alot of cars, what Japan needs turbos to do, we do aspirated, keep that in mind.

I like that comment, but R34 Skyline does everything well without the need of aspiration. Who needs big displacement? It just adds weight, and or poor fuel economy. No turbo lag? Is that even an issue these days?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

But that's it, your engines need turbo to make our kind of power, and weight? You said it yourself, the Corvette is lighter. Turbo a V8 and bam, your cars seem kind of pointless. Make too much power in a Japanese car and it becomes just as useless. Give a V8 an AWD system to put the power down in a small light car and the V8 wins every time because of this thing called torque. And what you mean about not happening with GM engines, they're the only ones strong enough to handle power, Japanese engines need bucket loads of money spent on them to get any sort of power at all then they keep breaking down all the time because they can't handle the power, I've seen it hundreds of times. That's enough now, I'm getting agitated, because I know that Japanese cars have nothing at all on me. We have something better each and every time.

 

[Tulok]

why is it that an rb26dett can handle 1200 HP on the stock block, and reliably push out ~500hp reliably, easily and relatively cheaply?
450hp at the wheels is `2000 usd away from a stock motor...

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Stock Ford 390 block... I'd say that it can handle 550hp and be dead-nuts reliable. With 16-17psi of boost (I prefer turbos), and a safe tune, that becomes 1khp easy. Maybe 1.1k.

And I'd LOVE to see a 1200hp RB last 5,000 miles.

1200hp with displacement on your side, however...

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

For once me and RJ agree, a small motor pushing out too much horsepower will not last very long, a big strong V8 will last way longer, inevitably coming to a shorter life span than that of a normal car of course.
4DSC, I almost forgot, after the R35 GT-R gets a traction advantage off the line, which one do you think would pull 100-200km/hr quicker? The Z06 Vette, and the GT-R needs two turbos to keep up, take those turbos away and would barely keep up with the DI V6 in the new Cadillac CTS............Maybe if Cadillac put 2 turbos on that AWD CTS you would see why GM is king, but for now, tremble on your knees at the mercy of the King Of The Mountain, the ZR-1 Corvette, which also has weight reduction amongst other things plus what I already mentioned, 7.2x.xxx at Nurburgring, here we come. They better put it on Nurburgring.

 

[4DSC]

Okay lets try a different method..

But that's it, your engines need turbo to make our kind of power, and weight? You said it yourself, the Corvette is lighter.

Are you saying a large displacement 8 cylinder is lighter then a average displacement 6? Thats exactly what it looks like. Because I was originally talking about the engine, not the car.

Turbo a V8 and bam, your cars seem kind of pointless. Make too much power in a Japanese car and it becomes just as useless. Give a V8 an AWD system to put the power down in a small light car and the V8 wins every time because of this thing called torque.

I hope you realize your only looking at the benefits of the V8s your defending. Come on man, alot of that technology is from the 60's!

And what you mean about not happening with GM engines, they're the only ones strong enough to handle power, Japanese engines need bucket loads of money spent on them to get any sort of power at all then they keep breaking down all the time because they can't handle the power, I've seen it hundreds of times.

It's not happening because you have to do internal mods on GM engines before you can make anything happen, turbo or NA. You don't have to do squat with the internals on an RB/2JZ.. Theres really nothin complicated to understand here. Thats just life. Until GM decides to build something stronger from the factory, thats the way it's gonna be.

That's enough now, I'm getting agitated, because I know that Japanese cars have nothing at all on me. We have something better each and every time.

LOL, yeah thats why the American market is ruled by Toyota.
Please, dont get agitated, Im not trying to insult your intelligence or V8's.. I have respect for all cars. Im tryin to learn something too here. Im just using what I see and know from experience in this discussion. If you can prove me otherwise, sure no prob, but theres really no clean evidance of any V8 being better then the RB/2JZ. The top V8 dragsters still run the same 1/4 mile times as those two Japanese engines. Reliability is definatly a difference factor here, but nobody ever said GM engines are the most reliable out there, *cough cough* LS2 heads in brand new Z06 recall *cough cough* The American Way!

For once me and RJ agree, a small motor pushing out too much horsepower will not last very long, a big strong V8 will last way longer, inevitably coming to a shorter life span than that of a normal car of course.

Based on whose theory!?

4DSC, I almost forgot, after the R35 GT-R gets a traction advantage off the line, which one do you think would pull 100-200km/hr quicker? The Z06 Vette, and the GT-R needs two turbos to keep up, take those turbos away and would barely keep up with the DI V6 in the new Cadillac CTS............Maybe if Cadillac put 2 turbos on that AWD CTS you would see why GM is king

Why are you taking turbos away from an engine that was intended to be turbocharged? Stop looking at displacement and look at real life facts. If you can prove to me that turbocharged V8's are faster then turbocharged RB's and 2JZ's modded through the roof, I will admit you are right. Till then, you don't have anything more on a 6 cyl with your V8 other then weight and bigger waste of fuel

 

[Tulok]

"The stock internals are good to 850hp as you stated. Most reputable shops say the 2JZ is good to about 800hp on stock internals. Both are still comparable. RB's are becoming more readily available on the used market and, as stated earlier, will become more available in Canada and thus the US. This, I believe, will help create additional opportunities to exploit the strengths of the RB."

sure a 1200hp rb26dett wouldnt get very far on stock internals, but with upgrades it could do well for many miles.

Numerous 700-1000hp Supras on stock or mildly modified internals are driven daily.

Why would you take the turbos off of the car? They are legitimate power, turbos are obviously better at getting power considering 3.0 liter supras can get 1100hp and beyond.

During the competition we'll see who is faster though.

EDIT
ops, what comp. lol

 

[Jay]

Reading this last page makes my head hurt, I am not going to go into details as I can't be bothered and its not going to get us anyway (I have much real life experience in both sides of the argument), nd 4 holden spd you are just way overbiased and have a lot to learn, I hope that happens for you one day. I have seen it many times online and real life.

I'm getting agitated, because I know that Japanese cars have nothing at all on me. We have something better each and every time.

You're getting agitated because some people don't agree with your biased missleading theorys over the internet?.......

You will get no where in life worrying about pointless things like that.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Alright that's it, twin turbo Lingenfelter Corvette, over 1000hp, look it up, street legal probably with warranty even. I'm not saying V8s are lighter than V6s, but they can still be used in a vey light car. The point of taking away turbos was to show you that V8s are way better than anything smaller, not that I don't like V6s, I love them and would probably own one over a V8 because V6s are more interesting as evryone knows a V8 makes insane power no prob. Only a GM V6 though. I've been witness to people at the drags with an R34 Skyline with over $30 000 AUD spent on them, they come up against a Holden running an LS1 with something as simple as an exhaust an the RB engined Skyline loses. Are you going to argue with that, tell me I'm a liar? As for the reason the large displacement lasts longer under high power is because the large displacement engines don't have to run so lean to get that power, they are within themselves, while the six has to run a very high "stress" level we'll call it, working its guts out to get that power. VIPERGTSR01, I'm in no way biased, if a car is better than sure, it's better, no one's denying the fact that the R35 has a quicker lap time than the Z06, but only because it is AWD and has 2 turbos, the Z06 is aspirated and RWD and still achieves that time. Don't you all see? Anyone can bolt on turbos to make power and be incomparable to an aspirated engine, just like a turbo 4 will beat an aspirated 6 most times, but the V8s are better because you don't need to run them at high stress levels to make big power, you don't even need turbos most of the time to have an unbelievably quick car. For more proof, look up on youtube, Z06 vs turbo Z, it will come up with a turbo charged 350Z being beaten by a bog standard Z06.
I'll come and edit this post later with a link to that video. Some of you may ask why I'm only using the Z06 as my example, because there aren't many American V8 coupes out there anymore, Mustang doesn't count, it's not very good. Now listen here, here's a summary of my argument, turbo 6 will likely beat a N/A V8, turbo V8 means the turbo 6 loses every time. Not to mention many V8s do come in a 4 door sedan, so it could even be your family car most of the time, but maybe that's mainly in Oz. Not to mention you pay a bucket load of money for many turbo sixes and can pick up a V8 for reasonably cheap, just not the Corvette which is by most standards still expensive.
See what I'm trying to tell you? Sorry it is so long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfXSE8_jH50 -Z06 beats sinlge turbo Z, thanks to better power band and less weight probably.

 

[Jay]

I gave up arguing over the internet ages ago, a year ago I would have ripped your posts to shreds. I sure someone will but that is just dragging this thread further and further off topic with a age old argument.

VIPERGTSR01, I'm in no way biased

Cool, nice to get that straightened up, and I was elected Prime Minister of Australia recently.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I'm not biased, but you can't argue with facts, tell me how I'm biased.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlAuImA2HbY -Turbo V8 running less boost beats turbo supra again and again and again. Believe me now guys?

Edit: See that Ute there in my avatar, 3.8L V6, I love V6s, and again I'd rather own a V6 over a V8 for various reasons, but V8s are quicker.

 

[Jay]

Anyone can run around youtube and find silly streetracing videos....... that proves nothing at all about anything, on either side of the argument.

Haha and youtube street racing videos is facts now? youtube and streetfire are made up of people just like you.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Anyone can run around youtube and find silly streetracing videos....... that proves nothing at all about anything, on either side of the argument.

Haha and youtube street racing videos is facts now?

Fine then, but let everyone know that I'm coming with proof for my argument, what have you done to prove the V6s are better, the only thing you guys have told me is that the twin turbo R35 beats a N/A Z06 around Nurburgring, so what, it is in that second video that a V8 running less boost than the Supra beats the Supra time and time again, it is proof and I'm sorry if you're too biased towards sixes to see that. Now who's biased again- remind me?

Edit: Oh yeah, youtube made by people like me? I wouldn't touch the stuff, I let hard core evidence speak for me, you know the guys losing races- they're made up by people like you.

 

[Jay]

What? You know cars are not only about making the most power, power is an easy thing to make, I repeat... very EASY and capacity does not make an engine good, the engine has to be designed good out for the factory.

Obviously a 6 litre engine will require less boost than a 3 litre to produce similar power traits, I don't think anyone has said otherwise, what are you trying to prove there? V8's are outright better because of that?

I'm too biased about 6's? I own (I6 turbo Nissan and Chevrolet V8 Holden) and am around tuned 4,6,8's and rotarys almost everyday (today I was at the dyno with a Supercharged 355 stroked VS HSV), thats part of my life. You call me biased yet I have not even said anything in favor for 6's (don't know how 6's got pinned anyway) or any engines for that matter. Just look how conflicting my username and sig are.......

Every engine has their pro's and con's, just cause one is better than the other for drag racing, does that make it a better engine overall..... Not at all, you are just very narrow minded.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

OK, sorry, just the way you were making me out to be made it sound like you were biased towards 6s. So the argument isn't about power then, V8s are better there- is that agreed? Well in that case, V8s can be made light as well, like the Ls7 and Ferrari V8s, then this isn't an argument at all, it's just which brands make a car for which purpose. Saying V8s are better than sixes is stupid if that's what we're gettin at, R35 is better than a 4 door naturally, Corvette is better than a Supra naturally, what was all this about?

 

[Jay]

So the argument isn't about power then, V8s are better there- is that agreed?

V8's in my experience have not been built aswell as smaller performance engines out of the factory, their clearence have been much looser their internal design not as robust and generally not upto scratch. but saying that.....They don't have to be (to a point), they are much larger capacity with more cylinders to distribute load of the engine, so in theory right there they have more power potential yes.

A well built strong large capacity V8 will be able to produce more power reliably than a well built small capacity I4 or I6 engine, no doubt.

This is all great, for Dragster engines (only so much power can be utilised). LS series V8's are quite lightweight, but not so robust, their aluminium construction is very prone to cracking and warping and have seen this first hand from V8 ute racers who has gone through a few blocks due to cracks. Chevrolet V8's like the LS7 (which is not a good tuning engine BTW) are also able to keep the engine weight down due to aluminium construction and simplicity of the engine design, I appauld them for that. The JZ and RB series I6's have a very well designed, engineered and tight clearance bottom ends out of the factory and designed for lengthy endurance racing with moderate power levels (300-600hp), you can see this first hand when pulling them apart (which I have done). If they went aluminium construction for weight reduction this would comprimise strength but the weight would be way down.

V8 engines weak points in general from my observation have been bottom end bearings, oil supply, rods and block (when aluminium). Turbo 6's weakest points generally have been pistons, ringlands, headgaskets.

What I don't agree on is "V8's are better", this is a silly argument and like I said all engines have their pros and cons, pin pointing one engine type is biased and silly. Especially when you call whole cars better than others just because it has 8 cylinders.. I don't rate a car or engine on its type or capacity, I look much deaper into things than that.

Corvette better than a Supra? It's all a matter of opinion and is like saying "Is Apples better than Oranges"

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

So we agree for the most part, each engine has its pros and cons, but some times you have to say one is better than the other (in particular models I'm talking about) So yes, I would think that the Corvette is much better than the Supra. Just curiously now though, what is the new GTR's V6 made from?
P.S. VIPERGTSR01, did you get my PM? We Aussies shouldn't be fighting, we should be working together

 

[Jay]

Just curiously now though, what is the new GTR's V6 made from?

The VR38DETT is made out of Aluminium, this engine was designed for upto 600hp long term reliable limit out of the factory, right now it is at a claimed 473hp so they have some room to move if they need (hint hint). The VR38DETT's weak points is the big end bearing which get a little overheated and can cause oil feed issues when run overpowered for extended endurance times and the iron based plasma coatings on the cylinder linings can wear off if boosted too much out of stock (engines can be sleeved to for higher power applications), Cosworth engineers who have worked on the first 3 stages of build said the engine was not over-engineered out of the factory like the previous RB's due to cost but the emphasis from Nissan was to have 90% or so of the peak Torque to be produced at low RPM, this is why they had to dump the VQ35 block (after first stage of design) and base it off the mesurements of the taller decked VQ40 block to increase capacity for faster and linear turbospool.


Personally I have had good and bad experiences with Aluminim blocks, but would stick with cold hard steel if I were looking for long term high powered reliablity.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Bless technology, it will ruin us all.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

I would just like to add, in a totally pointless manner, that the Flat Six has been ignored, which makes my soul cry.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Well if it makes you feel better I was half of the time referring to sixes in general I don't know why but I like that car of yours, I reckon it looks pretty good and has real potential.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

If it didn't weigh as much as a tractor trailer yeah ... working on that though.

 

[Jay]

What have you got?

 

[CraftyLandShark]

92 Subaru SVX. 2-door GT using VTD AWD, it's in my avatar. Bulletproof 3.3L flat six making 230 horses and about as much torque, but it weighs in the ballpark of 3600KG and was only offered in a worthless 4EAT transmission that failed in the early models (mine). I have a few plans to improve it as finances allow, including a severe diet, a 6-speed DCCD tranny swap from an STI, forced induction and a bit of suspension work. Not going for anything outlandishly fast, but it'd be fun to take to trackdays if well-sorted. Hoping for that in the spring... fingers crossed!

 

[Jay]

Haha yes I should have taken notice of your avatar, see a few here in Australia, should be a good project.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Yeah the owners club has quite a few Oz members! It'll be a mountain of work since there is NO aftermarket for this car save for group-buy fabrications in the owners club, but I'm still looking forward to it.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I think you made a typo, you said it weighs 3600Kg!! That's like a small truck.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Just to quickly add something to the 8 v 6 v4 v all discussion:

Yep, it's true that most V8s are thrown together poorly. But a well built V8 (IE something out of a racing shop) can make power out its arse extremely easily.

Then again, I personally AM biased. Only replacements for displacement are boost (but why build a 4-cylinder if you need 800hp?) and rotors.