Saab is Dead - Or is it?; Yes, yes it is

[TVC]

How is the M6 being 6 seconds faster embarrassing on the Nurburgring? That's not embarrassing, that's actually a big gap.

What's "embarrassing" is that the Cobalt SS/TC is 8:22.85 while the old Z3 M Coupe is 8:22, directly ahead. Oh wait, maybe the "embarrassing" part is that the BMW E36 Euro-Spec is nearly 3 seconds ahead at 8:20. .

6 seconds isn't really that long when you are talking about times that high.

The Cobalt SS was never created to compete with any of the M series cars. I don't see how a car like the Cobalt SS being almost as fast as some of the M cars is embarrassing. The Cobalt SS Turbo is only $24,000. When the Z3 M came out is was about $40,000. If anything the only thing that is embarrassing is that an M5 touring is slower than all of those cars.

We aren't even talking about the ZR1 or Z06. We are talking about an economy car in the same class as the Civic.

 

[McLaren]

6 seconds isn't really that long when you are talking about times that high.

Actually, it is.

The Cobalt SS was never created to compete with any of the M series cars.

Then why is it "embarrassing" that the Cobalt is 6 seconds behind the M6 Conv.?

I don't see how a car like the Cobalt SS being almost as fast as some of the M cars is embarrassing. The Cobalt SS Turbo is only $24,000. When the Z3 M came out is was about $40,000.

The Z3 M Coupe is also 11 years old, and is quite a bit outdated by now.

If anything the only thing that is embarrassing is that an M5 touring is slower than all of those cars.

So, that's embarrassing, but the Cobalt being beaten by a 14 year old M3 isn't?

On this, please provide your source of the M5 Touring's time, b/c I'm not finding anything times at all for the car on this course.

 

[TVC]

Actually, it is.

Not really. 8.22 is pretty slow for today and 6 seconds can be made up for quite easily. It's really not that long when you are talking about a relatively slow time for a track and 8 minutes and 22 seconds.

Then why is it "embarrassing" that the Cobalt is 6 seconds behind the M6 Conv.?

I don't even see how this is a response to the quote. Did you read the rest of my post?

The Z3 M Coupe is also 11 years old, and is quite a bit outdated by now.

And it is less than a second faster.

On this, please provide your source of the M5 Touring's time, b/c I'm not finding anything times at all for the car on this course.

The time was 8.25 claimed by BMW.

 

[McLaren]

Not really. 8.22 is pretty slow for today and 6 seconds can be made up for quite easily. It's really not that long when you are talking about a relatively slow time for a track and 8 minutes and 22 seconds.

Of course it's slow. It's a Cobalt, not one of the 6 figure cars breaking the 8 minute barrier.

You obviously aren't grasping the difficulty of this course. 6 seconds on the Nurburgring is a long time & is very difficult to regain when the original time was pushing the car to its limits. If it is so easy though, how come no one else has done so?

I don't even see how this is a response to the quote. Did you read the rest of my post?

Read your post. If the Cobalt isn't built to compete with the pricier, faster M6 Conv., why does it so embarrassing that the Cobalt is slower?

On that note, why are you even comparing the 2 times in the first place when the M6 is Convertible version? If you want a serious M6 time to compare to, the Coupe is right ahead at 8:07.

And it is less than a second faster.

Seems to me that that says a lot for the M Coupe more than it does for the Cobalt.

The time was 8.25 claimed by BMW.

That's not giving me a source. Where is the actual link on BMW's website that states this?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

You know...

A $24,000 FWD compact reasonably keeping up with much more expensive, RWD, sporting vehicles is rather embarrassing for said cars.

 

[///M-Spec]

GM sucks, plain and simple. I mean, look how ugly the Cadillac CTS-V is. You called this highly-competitive?

What a pointless and irrelevant tangent.

CTS-V? Really??? Other than it being underwritten by the same parent company, the car has NOTHING to do with Saabs.

If you want to rattle on about BMWs, there's several open threads for that.

EDIT: Also. The CTS-V IS highly competitive. I would be HAPPY to own one. And this is coming from someone who's had many BMWs.


And this Cobalt line of discussion needs to find another home.


M

 

[TVC]

Of course it's slow. It's a Cobalt, not one of the 6 figure cars breaking the 8 minute barrier.

You obviously aren't grasping the difficulty of this course. 6 seconds on the Nurburgring is a long time & is very difficult to regain when the original time was pushing the car to its limits. If it is so easy though, how come no one else has done so?

But 6 seconds really isn't that much. It's an 8 minute and 22 second lap so 6 seconds isn't that long.

No one has done it because they would have to change something on the car.

Read your post. If the Cobalt isn't built to compete with the pricier, faster M6 Conv., why does it so embarrassing that the Cobalt is slower?

Because it is only 6 seconds slower.

On that note, why are you even comparing the 2 times in the first place when the M6 is Convertible version? If you want a serious M6 time to compare to, the Coupe is right ahead at 8:07.

That is beside the point. I don't think you realize you are comparing the M6 to a $24,000 economy car.

I don't get why you are bringing another car into this conversation. "If you want a serious M6 time to compare to, the Coupe is right ahead at 8:07." You are comparing BMW's most expensive car to a $24,000 economy car made by Chevy. I might as well say "If you want a serious Chevy to compare to, the Corvette Z06 is right ahead at 7:42.9" but there is no point because we are not talking about them...

We are talking about a $24,000 economy car almost being as fast as a $107,000 BMW.

Seems to me that that says a lot for the M Coupe more than it does for the Cobalt.

You know the Chevy Cobalt is in the same class as a Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic?

 

[McLaren]

But 6 seconds really isn't that much. It's an 8 minute and 22 second lap so 6 seconds isn't that long.

You just don't understand anything about the course, do you? 6 seconds is a long time in racing, esp. on the 'Ring. That's a fact.

Because it is only 6 seconds slower.

Just so maybe for once you can grasp that, there are 18 cars in between the M6 Conv. & the Cobalt SS. A Cobalt will not be able to get past those 18 cars just like that.

That is beside the point. I don't think you realize you are comparing the M6 to a $24,000 economy car.

I don't think you realize that you were the one who began this comparison.

The Chevy Cobalt SS Turbo is faster around the Nurburgring than an M5 Touring () and isn't that much slower than an M6 Convertible (8.22.85 vs 8.16.52). I think that is pretty embarrassing. (so much for "The ultimate driving machine").

So once more, how is the M6 being 6 seconds ahead of the Cobalt embarrassing for the M6, but it's not embarrassing for the Cobalt to be a near 3 seconds slower than the 14 year old M3?

I don't get why you are bringing another car into this conversation. "If you want a serious M6 time to compare to, the Coupe is right ahead at 8:07."

Because you're saying the M6 Convertible is embarrassing because some little sports coupe is 6 seconds behind it. If anything, it means nothing because that's convertible version & isn't the fastest possible time for the M6. That is however, the fastest time for the Cobalt.

We are talking about a $24,000 economy car almost being as fast as a $107,000 BMW.

Except it's not almost. It's not even close. The Cobalt SS is almost as fast as a Z3 M Coupe. The Cobalt SS is almost as fast as a Merc. C55 AMG.

It is not almost as fast as a M6 Conv. There are 18 cars in between the 2.

You know the Chevy Cobalt is in the same class as a Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic?

You know I still want a link for the M5 Touring? You also know you're the one who brought up the Cobalt & the M6?

 

[Philly]

*walks into Saab thread, reads about Chevy Cobalt*



*rereads thread title*

 

[MustangSVT]

I just had to say something because what McLaren is saying doesn't make any sense.

You just don't understand anything about the course, do you? 6 seconds is a long time in racing, esp. on the 'Ring. That's a fact.

6 seconds on a 22km track is an extremely small amount. What do you mean by "especially on the ring"? 6 seconds is generally a lot in racing, if we're talking regular tracks. 6 seconds would be a lot "especially" on something like Tsukuba. 6 seconds on the Nordschleife is miniscule. Your logic doesn't make any sense at all. It's like saying 8000 is a bigger number than 7000, and 8000 is an "ESPECIALLY" bigger number than "7900". That doesn't even make sense. As that second number gets closer to 8000, or in this case, the lap time, how would it be more "especially" bigger, it's more like "especially" smaller. On a small track like Laguna Seca, the Cobalt SS would probably do the exact same time as the M3 or Z3 M Coupe. On the Ring its 6 seconds slower or whatever, that's like what, 1.5% slower? That's a very very tiny amount.

So once more, how is the M6 being 6 seconds ahead of the Cobalt embarrassing for the M6, but it's not embarrassing for the Cobalt to be a near 3 seconds slower than the 14 year old M3?

The fact that a FWD $25k Chevy is as fast as a 14 year old M3 is an achievement in itself. This is embarassing for BMW cars. I don't know how you can say otherwise.

 

[Jim Prower]

May I introduce a new picture?

 

[///M-Spec]

And this Cobalt line of discussion needs to find another home.

There is a thread about BMWs in the Gen Auto. Please take the Cobalt/BMW nonsense there now.


M

 

[sumbrownkid]

Well GM is often regarded as the Great Migraine. GM just got too big and made the brands, especially SAAB, go to hell.

 

[McLaren]

The fact that a FWD $25k Chevy is as fast as a 14 year old M3 is an achievement in itself. This is embarassing for BMW cars. I don't know how you can say otherwise.

Taking 14 years to get a FWD Chevy up to the standards of a 2nd generation BMW M3 is an achievement? That's like claiming the Toyota Corolla made an achievement by finally being able to accelerate as fast as a Miura from 0-60.

With that, I'm done with this convo. Let me know when you guys want to stop being comedians & realize how silly that just sounded.

 

[Adam41]

But 6 seconds really isn't that much. It's an 8 minute and 22 second lap so 6 seconds isn't that long.

Yes it is. 6 seconds on an 8 minute lap. Take suzuka, around a 2 minute lap. You don't think 1.5 seconds would be that hard to make up on Suzuka? Well then you're stupid.

 

[Jim Prower]

uggggh....

perhaps I should buy a Saab here soon. value might go up in 10 years.

 

[JB-BMW1989]

I rather ditch this conversation too. I made this topic gone too far and now we are making judgments, then TVC compared the burger burning Chevrolet Cobalt against the BMW M5 Touring. Wow, comparing a sport compact car against a sporty station wagon? That is truly embarrassing. Anyways, I'm done. You guys are being funny and pathetic.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

You guys are being funny and pathetic.

No, the whole thing was pretty ridiculous.

 

[YSSMAN]

From this lineup of entry models, BMW is actually in the very middle of the most affordable German cars. But then again, these are basic, entry level cars. From my experience, BMWs are in reality the farthest things from being a cheap, German car. In fact, Audi is the one who tends to undercut BMW & Mercedes more than anything.

All of which is very strange, because with the possible loss of Saab, the market for entry level luxury vehicles is essentially cut by a third. Between Saab, Volvo and Acura, they had created an interesting niche market. Audi was there for a while, but they seem to think its better to be batting at the top. Meh. I always felt like Saab was an interesting, if not slightly less-awesome alternative to BMW. More for the guy who cares about how the car rides and looks, not about how it drives most of the time.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather have a TurboX than a 335i.

 

[JB-BMW1989]

No, the whole thing was pretty ridiculous.

The whole thing is not just ridiculous, it's sad. By sad, I mean pathetic. I can't believe I wasted my time discussing this. When SAAB is gone, it's gone. I doubt Koenigsegg or Spyker will ever buy the marque.

 

[Jim Prower]

Call me crazy, but I'd rather have a TurboX than a 335i.

I wouldn't. I'd love one myself. I suppose I'll have to get a quote from uftrings...

 

[YSSMAN]

It was confirmed to Bloomberg today that Bernie Ecclestone (of F1 management fame) has placed a bid in for Saab with the company Genii Capital, who apparently bought Renault's F1 team. An interesting play by that crew, especially while Spyker is apparently still in negotiations to buy the brand.

Either way, the tides seem to be moving toward saving Saab. That's good news, any way you want to look at it.

 

[Jim Prower]

whaaaaa? I'm all for saving Saab, but I rather dont' like Ecclestone...

Although, the guy probably knows how to make money.

 

[NISM0_SKYLINE]

Did you guys see all the coverage on the Saab rally ine Detroit? I was there

 

[Clark]

Things are even worse for Saab now. Bernie Ecclestone is bidding on them.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

That would be the last person I would think of saving Saab.

 

[Philly]

Did you guys see all the coverage on the Saab rally ine Detroit? I was there

I think that would have been great to go to. It looks like they came from a ways away to be there. Very cool. 👍

 

[GTjazzabrandy]

Things are even worse for Saab now. Bernie Ecclestone is bidding on them.

At least they would be saved.

 

[Anghammarad]

Spyker and GM agrees. SAAB gets a new owner and lives.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE60O1HH20100125

 

[Hugo Boss]

That's fantastic news! I hope no more negative news around Saab has to follow the coming days. Looking forward to the new 9-5 and a possible hatchback 👍