Saab is Dead - Or is it?; Yes, yes it is

[Mike Rotch]

How is once, easily?

And rather apparent in this thread that it's the way it is.

Disagreeing with GM's decision and arguing it is hypocritical is equal to hating GM? Noted.

Who is to say they won't just change one or two things and claim it as their own leaving GM with nothing?

Who is to say they will not do that? Speculation is speculation. It is irrelevant anyway, as they possibility of them doing that separately (through reverse engineering) or through buying the IP is the same. The only difference is GM would have received some payment via a sale as recompense.

There is also a huge difference between Volvo and Saab, mainly the people that bought Volvo know what they are doing and have the money to do it as well.

Speculation again - how do you know the credentials of the suitors?

 

[Northstar]

Disagreeing with GM's decision and arguing it is hypocritical is equal to hating GM? Noted.

No, most people just posting "GM killed them" without saying Muller also had a role, is hating GM.

Who is to say they will not do that? Speculation is speculation. It is irrelevant anyway, as they possibility of them doing that separately (through reverse engineering) or through buying the IP is the same. The only difference is GM would have received some payment via a sale as recompense.

So your speculation is somehow better than my speculation?

Not sure about you, but if I'm a business owner I'm not going to let someone use my platform and hope to hell they don't make a knockoff, if I did I would be out of business before the next day.

Speculation again - how do you know the credentials of the suitors?

You mean other than the fact Volvo has a profit, a new model that was actually released and actually advertises?

 

[Mike Rotch]

No, most people just posting "GM killed them" without saying Muller also had a role, is hating GM.

Muller tried to keep Saab alive, even to the extent of a sale. GM quashed that. I think that is what people are getting at - he was trying (whether he was equipped to do this effectively is another thing) at least.

So your speculation is somehow better than my speculation?

Not sure about you, but if I'm a business owner I'm not going to let someone use my platform and hope to hell they don't make a knockoff, if I did I would be out of business before the next day.

That is what I am saying, the knockoff platform is likely even without the sale - copyright infringement in China doesn't exist. So GM might as well have gotten money from a sale then not selling it and being equally as exposed to knockoffs.

 

[ell470]

Heads up:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/20/saab-suspends-all-warranty-coverage-cars-to-be-sold-as-is/

Strange, yesterday they said the opposite here in the Swedish news??

 

[Pupik]

Heads up:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/20/saab-suspends-all-warranty-coverage-cars-to-be-sold-as-is/

Wonder what the remaining stock of new and CPO cars are to be sold for?

 

[Herman79]

As a former Saab-factory worker, been there 12 years, I will tomorrow go to the plant one last time to say goodbye, and, good luck, to my fellow colleagues.

Hopefully It's not the end of car production in Trollhättan and I hope someone buys the whole company and resumes production, but unfortunatly that is only a dream cenario right now.

 

[Mike Rotch]

Wonder what the remaining stock of new and CPO cars are to be sold for?

They are talking of $20,000+ discounts on stock here, but Holden (who service them) seem to be looking for a way out of servicing and warranty agreements.

 

[SVX]

It isn't, but the end result was it killed Saab. Perhaps they should have simply kept the company and ran it themselves.

Totally agree with you.

 

[RocZX]

Saab Cars North America has appointed an outside administrator to operate the company and potentially wind it down after parent Saab Automobile filed for bankruptcy protection in Sweden on Monday.
The move by the automaker's U.S. sales arm -- designed to avoid bankruptcy or immediate liquidation -

http://www.autonews.com/article/20111221/OEM/111229970/1422

 

[Crash]

Well, it looks like all the cars in the Saab Heritage Museum will be sold in an auction as part of the bankruptcy filing:

Three different sources.

 

[LP670-4 SV]

****........time to sell my house and an organ or 2 and scoop the sole Aero X in existence

 

[MatskiMonk]

Hmm..

Looks like the acronym Still Ain't A BMW might not hold entirely true if things go their way?

http://www.worldcarfans.com/112022141454/bmw-interested-in-saab---report

 

[peter_vod69]

Why would anyone want to buy and manufacture SAAB vehicles now? Surely their reputation is such that no one will go near them for fear of not having a dealer/warranty support/parts five minutes after they roll off the lot?

 

[Crash]

I can't see BMW buying Saab, not after their fiasco with Rover. Interesting rumor though.

Why would anyone want to buy and manufacture SAAB vehicles now? Surely their reputation is such that no one will go near them for fear of not having a dealer/warranty support/parts five minutes after they roll off the lot?

Saabs are being sold at firesale prices right now; partly because of what you said, because there will be no warranty. However, there are still plenty of European/Swedish indy shops where they would most likely be able to service these new cars, even if the customer has to pay for it. I would imagine though that IF someone buys up Saab, they will back the warranty that these new Saabs would have came with.

Saab still has a quirky image, and a certain group of people or clientele will still buy their cars just because of it.

 

[homeforsummer]

Hmm..

Looks like the acronym Still Ain't A BMW might not hold entirely true if things go their way?

http://www.worldcarfans.com/112022141454/bmw-interested-in-saab---report

Interesting. I remember a rumour a while back that Saab was trying to make a deal to buy the old MINI platforms to turn into a "Saab 9-2", to compete in that sector. Would have been very interesting had it happened, sounded like it would have been a true replacement for the old Saab 95 and 96.

 

[Guardian]

Even though I normally couldn't care less when a manufacturer goes bankrupt; I can't help but be upset for SAAB. I remember seeing the new shape 9-5 and thinking it was amazing. It will be sad to not see anything else roll of their production line...

 

[MatskiMonk]

They had agreed an engine deal in the past I believe, not sure for what.

I can see how it could wok well for BMW and SAAB. BMW has the money to resurrect production of one or two of SAAB's 'existing' models, in order to keep things ticking over. They also have their UKL platform on which they could base a range of SAAB's, using BMW existing engines. However, with BMW's range recentley extended quite a lot at the bottom end, it's difficult to see why they would spend the money, and take the risk on the investment just to compete with other BMW Group products.

Unless they are looking at it more from the point of view of manufacturing capacity, I'd imagine with the onslaught of new models they have at the moment, especially what could be highish volume small cars, they might need more space.

Other than trucks and super/hyper cars, there aren't really too many niches BMW won't already have covered within the next few years.

I also think it would be good idea for SAAB to go to BMW. Say what you want about the Rover "fiasco", but the Rover's that were developed under BMWs ownership where pretty good (i.e. the 75), and they did alright by the company, or at least better than the crooks at the Pheonix consortium did. BMW know what they are doing, when it comes to running a company, they made a massive success of MINI and Rolls Royce.. but these are products that sit below, and above, BMW's existing line-up.. I'd worry that SAAB just won't add anything to the portfolio.

..anyway I'm rambling now, I'd like to see it happen, I think.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd worry that SAAB just won't add anything to the portfolio.

I think it'd be quite clear-cut actually.

I *think* I'm correct in saying that Saab hasn't ever done a rear-drive model (the Sonnets weren't, were they?), so that's immediately a niche that BMW is unlikely to explore in any great detail (next 1-Series aside) and it's unlikely to impede on the "sport saloon" ethos of BMW.

Saab would still compete mainly with Volvo - all cars are safe these days but Saab and Volvo still had a stronger reputation for it than any other maker, so that's one take. Saabs = safe.

The next is design. If BMW was clever with Saab and could achieve decent economies of scale, then it wouldn't cost much to develop really contemporary, simple, clean designs with a nod to the more unusual stuff Saab was doing in the past. Hell, make them all hatchbacks again. Audi has proven with the A7 that hatchbacks don't have to be low-rent. In fact, Audi is more likely a company Saab would compete with than BMW. I reckon with Saab gone a lot of old Saab buyers go for Audis (and Volvos) now, rather than BMWs or Mercs.

The main complaint of GM-era Saab was that they were getting blander and blander - so a design-led company, both inside and out, would be a good approach. And quality, obviously, which we know BMW can do.

And practicality: Another very Swedish characteristic. If you take the BMW Touring ranges, great cars, usually quite stylish, but not particularly special in terms of space - a Mondeo estate is more commodious than a 5-Series estate. Make Saabs practical, and you'd rope in the sales on that front too.

None of the above would really encroach on BMW's turf, yet with the right engineering it could make them loads of money.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I agree that taken in isolation it seems pretty clear-cut, in the 3 series and under category where SAAB would probably exist, 3 model ranges could be developed, small hatch (Fiesta, Corsa, Polo, 208, A1), medium hatch (Focus, Astra, Golf, 308, A3, Ibiza), family saloon/hatch (Mondeo, Insignia, Passat, 4007, A4, Octavia)..

It could be nice bolt-on-brand-business for BMW, but surely to take it to a level like that would cost hundreds of billions... BMW are not VAG, or Daimler-Chrysler... they don't have the wealth and they don't have the breadth of product and manufacturing capability with which to take as much benefit from the economies of scale... or maybe they do... I don't know really,.. I can see it's a nice idea... but does that translate into what would be a sound Multi-multi-Billion Euro investment plan?

 

[homeforsummer]

Hard to judge, and of course we don't even know if it's happening yet, but BMW certainly has the ability. Theoretically, they'd only need to develop one platform, as they did with the Rover 75 - but these days, developing one platform means it can be used in three, five, ten different models. Potentially, even that next 1-Series FWD platform they're developing could be of use. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the next 1er shared a platform with the next MINI - among other things.

Depends on profitability too, I suppose. FWD platforms are in theory cheaper to develop than rear-drive ones - presumably why the 1er is going FWD, as since the owners don't care either way, BMW is going down the cheaper route. And if you can spin off a range of semi-premium cars from a cheap platform - a bit like GM did with Saab, but far better engineered - then you have big profits.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Potentially, even that next 1-Series FWD platform they're developing could be of use. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the next 1er shared a platform with the next MINI - among other things.

Depends on profitability too, I suppose. FWD platforms are in theory cheaper to develop than rear-drive ones - presumably why the 1er is going FWD, as since the owners don't care either way, BMW is going down the cheaper route. And if you can spin off a range of semi-premium cars from a cheap platform - a bit like GM did with Saab, but far better engineered - then you have big profits.

I think the platform in question is the UKL platform, which is configurable as R/F/AWD, and has the capability to support a variety of bodystyles also. It will be used across future Mini products and lower-end BMW products, of that there is no doubt - so, they could quite easily use it for a number of Saab products in future, but could BMW support it in the mean-time selling Saabs existing products? That's got Rover-situation written all over it!

 

[homeforsummer]

I think the platform in question is the UKL platform, which is configurable as R/F/AWD, and has the capability to support a variety of bodystyles also. It will be used across future Mini products and lower-end BMW products, of that there is no doubt - so, they could quite easily use it for a number of Saab products in future, but could BMW support it in the mean-time selling Saabs existing products? That's got Rover-situation written all over it!

I suppose in that respect they'd have very little to sell - it'd be mainly about starting from scratch with Saab's range while they shift 9-5s (and the stillborn 9-5 wagon). They'd have to buy the rights to continue making the 9-5 which is probably a pain in the butt, but on the plus side they wouldn't have any other models to worry about in the meantime (I wouldn't see them resurrecting the 9-3 only to replace it with something else so quickly), so overheads would be lower.

It'd be a little like Alfa Romeo, only selling a very limited range of models for a while, as they wait on more product development.

Financially, BMW has the means. Rover was unfortunate as BMW never hung onto them long enough to make the best of the 75 and beyond. BMW won't run back to a burning building, so if they do take over Saab it'd be for the long haul I reckon. I very, very much doubt they'd take it over and then drop it as it cost them too much doing it with Rover.

Like Rover, Saab will need an eye on the long term, rather than the short and medium term.

 

[Herman79]

Intrersting this rumor about BMW.

The latest according to the bancrupcy administrations, which has weekly press confererences every Tuesday, there is 6-7 serious byers and some of them are interested of bying the whole company and resume production.

Official interested companys are: Chinese company Youngman Automobile Group Ltd., Mahindra & Mahindra from India, Turkish Brighwell Holdings, A Swedish group of several companys interested to by small parts of the company. The others are hiding in the dark at the moment.

According to bancrupcy administrations the company who offers the "best" deal will be able to by. Thats atleast what was said yesterday.

http://www.saabsunited.com/2012/02/another-press-conference-but-this-time-its-interesting.html

There "best" will be the company who are best for Saab and generating most jobs to the city of Trollhättan and the sorrounding area.


Worked on the assemblyline at Saab for 13 years, I want my job back, so I hope for the best

 

[homeforsummer]

There "best" will be the company who are best for Saab and generating most jobs to the city of Trollhättan and the sorrounding area.

Worked on the assemblyline at Saab for 13 years, I want my job back, so I hope for the best

That, of course, is the important thing. Best of luck to you 👍

I'm very glad that the Saab heritage collection is staying all together in Trollhättan, was very worried it'd disappear off across the world for a while.

 

[Herman79]

I'm very glad that the Saab heritage collection is staying all together in Trollhättan, was very worried it'd disappear off across the world for a while.

Yes, it was a big relief when it was saved

 

[calico]

Just my thoughts but i think as good as Saab were they needed to make a car for the masses instead of concentrating on Rep mobiles or cars for executives. If they had made a Medium size car comparable to the Golf or Focus i think they would have lasted the forseeable future.

 

[Jondot]

Just my thoughts but i think as good as Saab were they needed to make a car for the masses instead of concentrating on Rep mobiles or cars for executives. If they had made a Medium size car comparable to the Golf or Focus i think they would have lasted the forseeable future.

Unfortunately I don't think GM would have let - as you say - a true 'car for the masses' go on sale. I imagine it'd be based on an Astra, and in that case the price would have to go above and beyond what Vauxhall would have you pay for one anyway; partially because I imagine Saab would spend a considerable effort making it nothing like the Astra, which wouldn't be cheap. I reckon you'd end up with more of an A3 than a Golf, put it that way.

That in its self wouldn't have been so bad, though - things like the A3 and 1 Series tend to sell fairly well, and Mercedes clearly think the niche is big enough to warrant a completely redesigned A Class too. But yeah, I think - if anything - it's not the pricing that lost them customers, it's that nobody's buying the traditional-dad-saloon anymore and, unlike Audi and BMW, Saab never had the chance to go ahead and dilute the brand with rivals for things like the Q5 and Q3. Which I'm convinced are the same car, by the way.

 

[calico]

Unfortunately I don't think GM would have let - as you say - a true 'car for the masses' go on sale. I imagine it'd be based on an Astra, and in that case the price would have to go above and beyond what Vauxhall would have you pay for one anyway; partially because I imagine Saab would spend a considerable effort making it nothing like the Astra, which wouldn't be cheap. I reckon you'd end up with more of an A3 than a Golf, put it that way.

That in its self wouldn't have been so bad, though - things like the A3 and 1 Series tend to sell fairly well, and Mercedes clearly think the niche is big enough to warrant a completely redesigned A Class too. But yeah, I think - if anything - it's not the pricing that lost them customers, it's that nobody's buying the traditional-dad-saloon anymore and, unlike Audi and BMW, Saab never had the chance to go ahead and dilute the brand with rivals for things like the Q5 and Q3. Which I'm convinced are the same car, by the way.

There were rumours a few years ago that they were going to use the Impreza Floorpan for a car but nothing ever came of it.

 

[Jondot]

There were rumours a few years ago that they were going to use the Impreza Floorpan for a car but nothing ever came of it.

Now that would have been promising. This, however, wasn't:

I also now realise having revisited Wikipedia that there were a couple of Saab SUVs floating around in the North American range, one of which actually looked quite promising. Shame they only made a few hundred before bankruptcy kicked in, I reckon the 9-4X would have gone down quite well over here. Provided they'd have dropped a diesel in there, anyway.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd say the 9-2X was probably the best of the GM-era Saabs. It was talented, for a start, but it was also a Saab with rallying heritage - like classic Saabs - and had an interesting engine - like classic Saabs.

It was like a modern-day Saab 96, really. If it'd come to the UK it'd be on my car-buying shortlist.