Save "Tookie"?

[High-Test]

Stanley "Tookie" Williams founded the Crips in 1969. He was sentenced to death 12 years later, and is scheduled to die on December 13th. He has written several books telling kids that gangs are not the way to go and that gangs will just get them in trouble.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177243,00.html

So, Should Arnold Grant "Tookie" Clemency?


I say yes.

 

[Joey D]

Just because he wrote some books doesn't excuse him from killing those four people. I say kill him.

 

[smellysocks12]

I didn't expect you to say anything different.




Anyone who is for the death penalty is a nazi. I don't even care about whether this guy did it or not, if he did it he should be in jail his entire life, he isn't a threat to society now so there is no reason to eliminate him. If he didn't do it he should've been released decades ago. The crips didn't start as a criminal gang, at the time they got really violent this guy was out of the picture for a long time already.


I don't get why they would sentence someone to death to begin with, when they still let them rot in jail for another 25 years? Why don't they execute a person right away? Makes no sense to me.

 

[Joey D]

Anyone who is for the death penalty is a nazi. I don't even care about whether this guy did it or not, if he did it he should be in jail his entire life, he isn't a threat to society now so there is no reason to eliminate him. If he didn't do it he should've been released decades ago. The crips didn't start as a criminal gang, at the time they got really violent this guy was out of the picture for a long time already.

Quit being an ass. My opinion differs from yours so I'm a Nazi? I'm sorry but F You. I take offense to that alright? I have Jewish family members and thought of you calling me that is utter bs.

Anyways, I feel that if you kill someone you should be killed in turn. The death penalty is still to expensive if you ask me, they should make it cheaper. But think about it, a life sentence is a death penalty that is just a long term issue.

 

[Swift]

I didn't expect you to say anything different.




Anyone who is for the death penalty is a nazi. I don't even care about whether this guy did it or not, if he did it he should be in jail his entire life, he isn't a threat to society now so there is no reason to eliminate him. If he didn't do it he should've been released decades ago. The crips didn't start as a criminal gang, at the time they got really violent this guy was out of the picture for a long time already.

Wow, I'm a Nazi now.

And time doesn't erase your crimes. Not crimes against humanity anyway. I really hate all this, "he's not a threat anymore" talk. What about the people he killed? The families that were hurt? We just don't care about them? Leave them out because it's been a little while and he's probably learned his lesson? Come on. 👎

Let's say someone kills your entire family because, well just because, are you telling me that you're willing to let your tax dollars pay to keep him in a comfortable life?

This is the reason why I mentioned in the discussion about morality, that I would take your snickers bar with force if I'd have to, if I would be on the verge of starving to death.

Hmmm...so stealing is ok, but putting someone to death for murder isn't...interesting point of view. Total hypocracy, but interesting none the less.

 

[smellysocks12]

Quit being an ass. My opinion differs from yours so I'm a Nazi? I'm sorry but F You. I take offense to that alright? I have Jewish family members and thought of you calling me that is utter bs.

Anyways, I feel that if you kill someone you should be killed in turn. The death penalty is still to expensive if you ask me, they should make it cheaper. But think about it, a life sentence is a death penalty that is just a long term issue.

Maybe using the word nazi was wrong, but it was the first one that came to mind that I thought would be suitable. The guy was sentenced to death 25 years ago, police investigation wasn't that refined back then. Nobody ever heard of DNA. This guy never admitted to committing these crimes. If he would have commited them he most likely would have admitted it by now, after serving so much time facing death.


Not to mention this case was closed at a time racist issues were much more serious than they are now.


Now I wouldn't protest if it was a 100% sure caught in the act mass murderer, but while there is still a chance that someone is innocent, you simply don't sentence him to death. It is irreversible, you CAN take someone out of jail.

It's better to have 100 mass murderers rotting in a heavily protected prisonl, than ending up executing one single innocent person.

Let's say someone kills your entire family because, well just because, are you telling me that you're willing to let your tax dollars pay to keep him in a comfortable life?

No, but I wouldn't want him to be sentenced to death either. I would try to kill him myself instead. If someone kills one of your own family, you want someone to pay for it. Most likely you lose rationale and rather take the risk of sending an innocent person to the electric chair, than keeping the possibility that he should be released some day because of new evidence open. So someone who is related to the victim definitely should NOT be the judge.

 

[Danoff]

while there is still a chance that someone is innocent, you simply don't sentence him to death.

So you think he might be innocent? I thought the whole argument on this was just that he'd spoken out against gangs - not that he might be innocent.

 

[Joey D]

Maybe using the word nazi was wrong, but it was the first one that came to mind that I thought would be suitable. The guy was sentenced to death 25 years ago, police investigation wasn't that refined back then. Nobody ever heard of DNA. This guy never admitted to committing these crimes. If he would have commited them he most likely would have admitted it by now, after serving so much time facing death.

Yes the word was wrong and you are still an ass for having that word come to mind.

He was sentenced to death, that's his sentence, he needs to serve it. The courts convicted him and he was found guilty. Everything was Constitutional so its cool by me.

Not to mention this case was closed at a time racist issues were much more serious than they are now.

That's right play the race card, it helped OJ didn't it? Race isn't an excuse for killing someone.

Now I wouldn't protest if it was a 100% sure caught in the act mass murderer, but while there is still a chance that someone is innocent, you simply don't sentence him to death. It is irreversible, you CAN take someone out of jail.

It's better to have 100 mass murderers rotting in a heavily protected prisonl, than ending up executing one single innocent person.

Nothing is perfect but I'll take that risk with the death penalty. I would rather watch someone die if they killed a family member then be in jail.

 

[smellysocks12]

So you think he might be innocent? I thought the whole argument on this was just that he'd spoken out against gangs - not that he might be innocent.

He never ever plead guilty for these crimes.

 

[Joey D]

He never ever plead guilty for these crimes.

But he was found guilty. I could go out an shoot someone, and plead innocent...but it doesn't mean I am.

 

[smellysocks12]

But he was found guilty. I could go out an shoot someone, and plead innocent...but it doesn't mean I am.

Found guilty... by who? A jury... based on evidence, which cannot have been complete... since modern techniques we use now weren't available and might have proven him to be innocent if they would have used back then.


Based on your opinion, you would let your children whenever you get them, stay at a sleepover party at Michael Jackson's house? He wasn't ever convicted of molesting a child, so he is a decent man, who just loves children.



Unless your jury is GOD, who knows every single detail about what happened, the death penalty should not be used.

 

[Swift]

Nobody ever heard of DNA. This guy never admitted to committing these crimes. If he would have commited them he most likely would have admitted it by now, after serving so much time facing death.

Do you think before you type? Nobody heard of DNA? how about nobody had easy access to a DNA test. Man...

Oh yeah, everyone that's on deathrow just admits it after a few years. Please...

Not to mention this case was closed at a time racist issues were much more serious than they are now.

Blazin covered this quite well already.

No, but I wouldn't want him to be sentenced to death either. I would try to kill him myself instead. If someone kills one of your own family, you want someone to pay for it. Most likely you lose rationale and rather take the risk of sending an innocent person to the electric chair, than keeping the possibility that he should be released some day because of new evidence open. So someone who is related to the victim definitely should NOT be the judge.

That's hyporcritcal, again. You don't want them sentenced to death but you would personally kill them? The result is identical. They are dead.

Man, you've had some whoppers before, but this one really takes the cake.

I was wrong...

Based on your opinion, you would let your children whenever you get them, stay at a sleepover party at Michael Jackson's house? He wasn't ever convicted of molesting a child, so he is a decent man, who just loves children.

How about, "You can't go to MJ's house because I won't let you." Forget the conviction or not. I'm a parent that has enough sense to keep my children away from a guy that has obvious issues.

Unless your jury is GOD, who knows every single detail about what happened, the death penalty should not be used.

I'd show you how many times God said to put offenders to death in the bible, but that probably wouldn't change your mind at all.

 

[Danoff]

He never ever plead guilty for these crimes.

Regardless, there is some question as to his guilt?? I thought it was pretty much open and shut.

 

[McLaren]

I didn't expect you to say anything different.




Anyone who is for the death penalty is a nazi. I don't even care about whether this guy did it or not, if he did it he should be in jail his entire life, he isn't a threat to society now so there is no reason to eliminate him. If he didn't do it he should've been released decades ago. The crips didn't start as a criminal gang, at the time they got really violent this guy was out of the picture for a long time already.


I don't get why they would sentence someone to death to begin with, when they still let them rot in jail for another 25 years? Why don't they execute a person right away? Makes no sense to me.

If a guy kills another man, why shouldn't he die as well?

 

[smellysocks12]

That's hyporcritcal, again. You don't want them sentenced to death but you would personally kill them? The result is identical. They are dead.

Like I said, if that would happen my emotions would make me want to do that. That is why I shouldn't be the judge if that would happen. With other murders I am still able to use my rationale and still keep the options open that someone might not have done it, unless I actually saw it happen with my own eyes.

 

[Joey D]

You haven't got a clue in your head how the US justice system works do you?

The jury, based on evidence, found him to be guilty of killing those people. He was convicted and sentenced to death. That's what happened.

Based on your opinion, you would let your children whenever you get them, stay at a sleepover party at Michael Jackson's house? He wasn't ever convicted of molesting a child, so he is a decent man, who just loves children.

You are wrong, I think Michael Jackson is gulity, I thought OJ was gulity, I thought a lot of people were guilty that got off. But you want to know what? There isn't anything I can do about that.

What is and what I think are two different things.

 

[smellysocks12]

If a guy kills another man, why shouldn't he die as well?

Read my other posts.

 

[smellysocks12]

You haven't got a clue in your head how the US justice system works do you?

The jury, based on evidence, found him to be guilty of killing those people. He was convicted and sentenced to death. That's what happened.



You are wrong, I think Michael Jackson is gulity, I thought OJ was gulity, I thought a lot of people were guilty that got off. But you want to know what? There isn't anything I can do about that.

What is and what I think are two different things.

I do have an idea about how it works, actually I just explained it before you posted it. Whenever humans make decissions errors are being made, which includes the US justice system. The law was written by people and by no means perfect. Errors are made in both ways. Guilty people are found innocent, I think MJ is a disgusting pervert who likes to fondle little boys as well. The same way errors are made like this, it also happens with innocent people getting found guilty.

The difference is, that when more evidence is found against the released criminal, they will still jail him, when you execute someone and later find out he's innocent... then what? Send a flowers to his family and a note saying "sorry?".

Now THAT is hypocritical, truly believing in a jury's findings whenever one is found guilty, but still claiming that someone is guilty after he was found innocent. I believe errors are made in both ways, so I am not the hypocrite.

 

[Joey D]

I do have an idea about how it works, actually I just explained it before you posted it. Whenever humans make decissions errors are being made, which includes the US justice system. The law was written by people and by no means perfect. Errors are made in both ways. Guilty people are found innocent, I think MJ is a disgusting pervert who likes to fondle little boys as well. The same way errors are made like this, it also happens with innocent people getting found guilty.

By reading your posts your intellegence on the justice system is questioned. You seemed surprised that a jury would convict him. That is what juries do, they decided whether or not someone is gulity or innocent.

MJ got off because he had money and he was famous, if I did the same thing I would've been convicted hands down.

The difference is, that when more evidence is found against the released criminal, they will still jail him, when you execute someone and later find out he's innocent... then what? Send a flowers to his family and a note saying "sorry?".

Actually the families get a nice check if they find out they were wrong.

 

[High-Test]

The three Afrrican-American jurors were thrown out by the prosecutor, who made several racial remarks in his arguments.


Does saving potentially thousands of kids from being killed in gang wars earn someone clemency? I believe so.

 

[eliseracer]

Actually the families get a nice check if they find out they were wrong.

I'm not going to get involved in the argument, but there is no monetary replacement for spending that much time in jail. You cannot put a price on 12 wasted years of human life.

 

[Joey D]

I'm not going to get involved in the argument, but there is no monetary replacement for spending that much time in jail. You cannot put a price on 12 wasted years of human life.

Mistakes happen, mistakes can't be prevented. But the only way to make up for a mistake is through money, if you throw enough money at something it no longer becomes a problem. It doesn't excuse the fact they killed an innocent person, but trust me a check is better then a "well we messed up..sorry" from the state.

 

[Max Powers]

if you throw enough money at something it no longer becomes a problem..

You can't be serious. Does that apply in all areas of life?

 

[Joey D]

You can't be serious. Does that apply in all areas of life?

What solves everything...money. I am serious.

I look at it this way, my dad is convicted of a crime he didn't commit, sentenced to death, and is killed. 2 years later they find out someone else did it. Would I be pissed? Yes. Would I expect the state to do something? Yes, and since money is the only logical thing to do in this situation I would expect it.

I would be pissed my dad was killed, I would be pissed that the state messed up, but I would know that the state did what the could to correct the problem.

 

[smellysocks12]

What solves everything...money. I am serious.

You're serious, that's the sad part.

 

[Joey D]

You're serious, that's the sad part.

What's sad is that you make post like these without any other evidence why. I explained how my thinking came about, care to explain yours? You suck at debate I must say.

 

[ledhed]

There is absolutely no chance he is innocent of the crimes he was sentenced to death for .
HE doesnt even argue that and has never shown any remorse. The only reason people think this ass munch should be spared is because he has lingered enough on DEATH ROW to have convinced some , that he has changed....well is 'nt that just peachy ...the people that you tortured and blew to smithereens at close range with your shotgun have changed too...into food for worms just like you soon shall be ...it might help their FAMILY and friends at least to know you finaly got the justice thats been waiting for you.
if that makes me a Nazi then all I can say is SEIG HEIL .

 

[Joey D]

There is absolutely no chance he is innocent of the crimes he was sentenced to death for .
HE doesnt even argue that and has never shown any remorse. The only reason people think this ass munch should be spared is because he has lingered enough on DEATH ROW to have convinced some , that he has changed....well is 'nt that just peachy ...the people that you tortured and blew to smithereens at close range with your shotgun have changed too...into food for worms just like you soon shall be ...it might help their FAMILY and friends at least to know you finaly got the justice thats been waiting for you.
if that makes me a Nazi then all I can say is SEIG HEIL .

Actually they think he should be spared because he wrote some books or something. But I understand what you are saying.

 

[Solid Lifters]

He's no Sunday School student, no matter how much people think he has changed. He's a murderer, he started on of the mose deadly gangs of all time, he's been found guilty, he's been sentence to death. So what if he wrote some books? It doesn't bring back the lives of the poeple he's killed.

Carry out the sentence, and let the family members of the people whom he killed live in peace. They deserve peace, and he deserves death.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Death is the easy way out, a far far far worse punishment is solitary confinement.

Loniless is far worth than death.

Lock him up for the rest of his life, a long miserable life is much much worse than dieing.

I dont think they should ever kill people, if the crimes are that harsh put them in a room on their own, and feed them tins of food through a cat flap for the rest of their lives. The only people they get to see is the 1 person who cleans the cell or feeds them. This punishment is far worse.

Death is the easy way out once your dead you arnt suffereing. We will all die anyway so you muss well let him live out his life in missery just like the family members of the victimes he killed.