Should Polyphony team up with Evolution Studios?

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Sounds like a good idea, but I think it would fall flat on its face in practice.

Say what you want about PD, but they do an amazing job at recreating vehicles (apart from their audio, as we know)
I think part of their culture and perfectionism wouldn't allow them to take the "easy-way" of development. I think companies like PD take a great bit of joy in modeling and creating the vehicles. These guys are developers and they love what they do.

If anyone here knows what happen to SAAB when they went out of business, then you understand where I am getting out. GM would tell SAAB to grab one of their cars, change the badges a bit and maybe move a cup-holder or two, and re-sell the car as a SAAB. When GM would finally see the new cars, they would be almost completely re-done, because according to SAAB "It wasn't good enough." SAAB spent too much money and effort re-creating the cars to a level of their perfection that it cost them their existence. I fear the same fate would embrace PD.
 
TheCrazySwede
Say what you want about PD, but they do an amazing job at recreating vehicles (apart from their audio, as we know)
I think part of their culture and perfectionism wouldn't allow them to take the "easy-way" of development. I think companies like PD take a great bit of joy in modeling and creating the vehicles.
Click to expand...

But is it sustainable? It takes quite a large amount of time for their 30 car modelers to add new cars to the roster. There is a reason why the car lineups for all the car brands in GT6 are out of date. Sharing cars for GT7 between developers could fix that issue and allow PD to focus on the older cars they love.
 
TheCrazySwede
Sounds like a good idea, but I think it would fall flat on its face in practice.

Say what you want about PD, but they do an amazing job at recreating vehicles (apart from their audio, as we know)
I think part of their culture and perfectionism wouldn't allow them to take the "easy-way" of development. I think companies like PD take a great bit of joy in modeling and creating the vehicles. These guys are developers and they love what they do.

If anyone here knows what happen to SAAB when they went out of business, then you understand where I am getting out. GM would tell SAAB to grab one of their cars, change the badges a bit and maybe move a cup-holder or two, and re-sell the car as a SAAB. When GM would finally see the new cars, they would be almost completely re-done, because according to SAAB "It wasn't good enough." SAAB spent too much money and effort re-creating the cars to a level of their perfection that it cost them their existence. I fear the same fate would embrace PD.
Click to expand...

Now as a SAAB fan...ok, SAAB was better off without GM, but even without them they had same old model and to few models to survive. PD is opposite in that way, they have had same old models but one platform that didnt have much to choose from.
Anyway...claiming PD are great at recreating vehicles is a bit bold to me. They havent done much lately. And it is strange how they are avoiding all new great cars, having old ones instead (even mooncar) and then jumping to concepts that noone has. So how are they good at recreating cars when they are all obsolete or non existent. And even those that are a bit new are not done correctly. But i will say this, without being there, PD are great at recreating tracks. Now all this may change with PS4, and i hope so, because PD and PS3 is something i will try to forget.Seeing Evo what they have done and even Project Cars, the competition is on, and that is what was missing before.
 
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TheCrazySwede
Sounds like a good idea, but I think it would fall flat on its face in practice.

Say what you want about PD, but they do an amazing job at recreating vehicles (apart from their audio, as we know)
I think part of their culture and perfectionism wouldn't allow them to take the "easy-way" of development. I think companies like PD take a great bit of joy in modeling and creating the vehicles. These guys are developers and they love what they do.
Click to expand...
It's not an all or nothing thing though. PD could still retain all or most of their modelers and give them the most important or iconic cars to model, retaining their own culture and perfectionism and the joy they get from modeling. They could also sub out another 50 or 100 cars per release to proven car modelers. It'll cost more for sure, but we'd get regular DLC which should cover the cost of modeling and of course provide more cars for future titles. If they want to retain an edge on the competition that's one way to do it.
 
A simple exchange of car and tracks would be good.

As a result Sony could make money from both companies helping PS4 sales.
 
What PD need is to take the tons of cash they have made over the past decade and a half and pay to have stuff outsourced if they are not willing to hire internally. I couldn't see them teaming up with established studios but what could happen is Sony could create a phantom studio to co develop (like for example Sledgehammer Games).


Turn 10 is now producing a product which is much better in half the time because they have lots of staff and outsource, as a result its a more fully featured game. Also Japanese developers in general haven't been faring well in recent years as they seem to be unwilling to embrace the changes in the global gaming market.
 
What evidence is there that PD are "unwilling" to expand? The credits list gets longer with every iteration. The modeling team is structured differently for GT6 from what it was for GT5, also.

As has been mentioned already, different people can only work on parallel tasks. So much of making a game is sequential, such that adding more people doesn't always work. You certainly don't just throw people at a problem, you gradually add them as you understand the problem more and ensure you can control the result.

Making content is more or less parallel, e.g. modeling, but you still have to orchestrate and monitor that in some way; hence the structural change as the team has grown. Control.

Outsourcing only works if you're all working to the same standard, and that's great in a homogenised industry like, I don't know, metal extrusions, but in a creative / artistic endeavour, things are a little more dicey. PD, also, generally, don't conform to the mainstream production methods of the games industry, and that's mostly to their credit - it's in fact how GT came to be in the first place.
 
They need to show PD how to model interior lighting whilst looking inside the car.


I have never in all my driving time drove towards the sun, and as if by magic my dash goes pitch black and then I can't distinguish the road from grass (Daytona RC). It's quite ridiculous sometimes how I just wonder "well gee if the actually tested the stuff they make it wouldn't be that bad of a game.."
 
Griffith500
What evidence is there that PD are "unwilling" to expand? The credits list gets longer with every iteration. The modeling team is structured differently for GT6 from what it was for GT5, also.

As has been mentioned already, different people can only work on parallel tasks. So much of making a game is sequential, such that adding more people doesn't always work. You certainly don't just throw people at a problem, you gradually add them as you understand the problem more and ensure you can control the result.

Making content is more or less parallel, e.g. modeling, but you still have to orchestrate and monitor that in some way; hence the structural change as the team has grown. Control.
Click to expand...

There is evidence, such as seeing dev's sleeping under their desks and one car taking 3 months+ to model. This studio has millions, why don't they hire or get more skilled people if they want to keep the team small. GT6 didn't work out so great so its obvious there needs to be some workforce changes.

Basic modelling of more cars for example (a parallel task) isn't a problem, they have that nailed down and they have to tools in place so they can distribute this and other easy stuff to other people (possibly external) and use the core team to tackle more challenging stuff like innovating the series' features.

It's not so much throwing more people at a problem, its that they have started with a team which is already undersized for the task. The team hasn't grown at the rate the game has and 140 odd staff for a game which is one of the systems biggest sellers is crazy. Naughty Dog have double that and released 5 stunning games in the time PD has made 2 (saying GT6 is 1 is a push!).

Griffith500
Outsourcing only works if you're all working to the same standard, and that's great in a homogenised industry like, I don't know, metal extrusions, but in a creative / artistic endeavour, things are a little more dicey. PD, also, generally, don't conform to the mainstream production methods of the games industry, and that's mostly to their credit - it's in fact how GT came to be in the first place.
Click to expand...

The world is all about collaboration and sure you have to have control measures in place but every company (even those which work in a creative, non homogenised sectors) outsource or get supplied from other people and that for the most part works OK. I don't see why it would be so hard for PD to keep an eye on an external party to monitor quality.

Also This isn't a piece of art or some wealthy man's pet project, this is a VIDEO GAME, I'm sure most would be reasonably happy with having many more cars and features over a handful polygonally perfect ones.

On a side note regarding same standards, PD can't even make all their cars look the same standard.... in their own game! A feat pretty much every developer in history has managed to avoid. I would rather have some 3rd parties 'Premium' than PD's 'Standard'.
 
Mulan
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2014/06/05/51-details-about-driveclub-on-ps4/

Strange how some stuff seem so familiar...hmmm can it all be just coincidence.
Click to expand...

Each reference car was fitted with at least 16 separate microphones to authentically capture the sounds of the engine from 360 degrees, inside and outside of the car. Some had four mics on the exhaust alone.

In-game, the engine sound reacts to your perspective. Pan around a stationary car gunning its engine and the sound shifts with the camera position (relative to where the engine is).

When you race, the engine sounds are different based on which of the six camera views you choose — inside or outside of the car. You’re not hearing the same engine audio with a filter — it’s all recorded separately.

The recordings were so accurate that BMW and Mercedes-Benz AMG requested copies to replace their existing library.

In many cases, Evolution’s audio captures are the most high definition recordings of these cars in existence.

Bespoke sound effects were recorded for every action in the game. You won’t hear a single stock sample.
Click to expand...
They should team up in Audio section for sure! :D
 
Swagger897
They need to show PD how to model interior lighting whilst looking inside the car.


I have never in all my driving time drove towards the sun, and as if by magic my dash goes pitch black and then I can't distinguish the road from grass (Daytona RC). It's quite ridiculous sometimes how I just wonder "well gee if the actually tested the stuff they make it wouldn't be that bad of a game.."
Click to expand...
I agree, it's as if they never used the interior view when testing this game. I was driving a Ferrari 458 around Silverstone at 17:00 and all I could see was the redline on the rev counter.
 
Robin.
Turn 10 is now producing a product which is much better in half the time because they have lots of staff and outsource, as a result its a more fully featured game. Also Japanese developers in general haven't been faring well in recent years as they seem to be unwilling to embrace the changes in the global gaming market.
Click to expand...
Robin.
There is evidence, such as seeing dev's sleeping under their desks and one car taking 3 months+ to model. This studio has millions, why don't they hire or get more skilled people if they want to keep the team small. GT6 didn't work out so great so its obvious there needs to be some workforce changes.
Click to expand...
Forza 5: "It takes us six months to build a car"

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/turn-10-we-re-not-holding-back-cars-for-forza-5-dlc/1100-6416129/

Anyway, outsourcing could bring more cars and more tracks to a game with plenty of them, not better features. Even T10 develop their game core in-house and the newer features have been minimal since FM1, nothing major like weather, dynamic time, night racing, rallye, track editor, etc.
 
Drive Club 7 months but including license and stuff. Since PD dont use sounds, interiour view in all cars and not that high detail and have licenses they should be down to 2-3months max
 
as i like it again, if Drive Club, Project Cars and The Crew all hit supersales i hope it means more drivinggames and not more arcaders. Hopefully F1 will come for ps4 too so there is much fun ahead just keep some for us simlovers to ... oh do GP Legends remake and ill be happy
 
Robin.
There is evidence, such as seeing dev's sleeping under their desks and one car taking 3 months+ to model. This studio has millions, why don't they hire or get more skilled people if they want to keep the team small. GT6 didn't work out so great so its obvious there needs to be some workforce changes.

Basic modelling of more cars for example (a parallel task) isn't a problem, they have that nailed down and they have to tools in place so they can distribute this and other easy stuff to other people (possibly external) and use the core team to tackle more challenging stuff like innovating the series' features.

It's not so much throwing more people at a problem, its that they have started with a team which is already undersized for the task. The team hasn't grown at the rate the game has and 140 odd staff for a game which is one of the systems biggest sellers is crazy. Naughty Dog have double that and released 5 stunning games in the time PD has made 2 (saying GT6 is 1 is a push!).
Click to expand...

I don't see any evidence in all of that to suggest PD are unwilling to expand. They have expanded. They'll likely do it at a rate they consider sustainable, in a process control sense, something well established in engineering.

Robin.
The world is all about collaboration and sure you have to have control measures in place but every company (even those which work in a creative, non homogenised sectors) outsource or get supplied from other people and that for the most part works OK. I don't see why it would be so hard for PD to keep an eye on an external party to monitor quality.

Also This isn't a piece of art or some wealthy man's pet project, this is a VIDEO GAME, I'm sure most would be reasonably happy with having many more cars and features over a handful polygonally perfect ones.

On a side note regarding same standards, PD can't even make all their cars look the same standard.... in their own game! A feat pretty much every developer in history has managed to avoid. I would rather have some 3rd parties 'Premium' than PD's 'Standard'.
Click to expand...

All of PD's staff are collaborating on the same project. The simple matter is that where ideals and training and habits etc. don't overlap, you've got a problem. It's better to assimilate people into your own ideals etc. in order to expand your productivity in the long run than to patch over a short term demand by using comparatively inefficient labour (because of the mismatch). Unless you absolutely have to have those numbers yesterday; you will pay the price, though.

I'm sure most would pick holes in whatever they deem unacceptable, regardless. That is true of many games that use "outsourcing", also.

That strawman of old-generation assets doesn't work, simply because it's old work - they cost nothing to put in the game, and they are not tradable for more Premiums. But it's a nice bit of wordplay, at least.


If you don't know how hard it is to "monitor" third parties, my guess is you've never done it.
And yes, we're talking about a VIDEO GAME here; not mass-produced commodities.
 
Griffith500
I don't see any evidence in all of that to suggest PD are unwilling to expand. They have expanded. They'll likely do it at a rate they consider sustainable, in a process control sense, something well established in engineering.



All of PD's staff are collaborating on the same project. The simple matter is that where ideals and training and habits etc. don't overlap, you've got a problem. It's better to assimilate people into your own ideals etc. in order to expand your productivity in the long run than to patch over a short term demand by using comparatively inefficient labour (because of the mismatch). Unless you absolutely have to have those numbers yesterday; you will pay the price, though.

I'm sure most would pick holes in whatever they deem unacceptable, regardless. That is true of many games that use "outsourcing", also.

That strawman of old-generation assets doesn't work, simply because it's old work - they cost nothing to put in the game, and they are not tradable for more Premiums. But it's a nice bit of wordplay, at least.


If you don't know how hard it is to "monitor" third parties, my guess is you've never done it.
And yes, we're talking about a VIDEO GAME here; not mass-produced commodities.
Click to expand...

How about if PD bought them?
 
Mulan
How about if PD bought them?
Click to expand...
It would obliterate the culture of Evolution Studios, ideally. Obviously, that's not actually ideal for Evolution Studios. I'd be in favour of letting them stay who they are so they can make games according to their own expression, and the same for PD. Unless they're happy to go back to doing commission work.
 
Griffith500
It would obliterate the culture of Evolution Studios, ideally. Obviously, that's not actually ideal for Evolution Studios. I'd be in favour of letting them stay who they are so they can make games according to their own expression, and the same for PD. Unless they're happy to go back to doing commission work.
Click to expand...
Yeah but in all other business companies buy other companies. Its not about what they can do for them selfes but what they can bring to PD and if there is economy in it, like hey they have all we need
so lets not reinvent the wheel.


As consumer perhaps not always good but that is the free market.
 
Mulan
Yeah but in all other business companies buy other companies. Its not about what they can do for them selfes but what they can bring to PD and if there is economy in it, like hey they have all we need
so lets not reinvent the wheel.


As consumer perhaps not always good but that is the free market.
Click to expand...
If a company buys another company, it sure as hell isn't for our benefit. Let's try to get this back on topic.
 
For that matter, how would anyone benefit from that? Evolution Studios certainly wouldn't; and PD using the group as a mule would be no different from them outsourcing to anyone else. If Sony felt it necessary to combine the creative output of the two studios to quicken the release schedule of the bigger franchise, they wouldn't need to merge them to accomplish that.

And since they are wildly different groups that aren't even on the same continent, I don't think it would be too much of a reach to assume that it would make things worse trying to coordinate them as one entity before it made things better.
 
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Tornado
For that matter, how would anyone benefit from that? Evolution Studios certainly wouldn't; and PD using the group as a mule would be no different from them outsourcing to anyone else. If Sony felt it necessary to combine the creative output of the two studios to quicken the release schedule of the bigger franchise, they wouldn't need to merge them to accomplish that.

And since they are wildly different groups that aren't even on the same continent, I don't think it would be too much of a reach to assume that it would make things worse trying to coordinate them as one entity before it made things better.
Click to expand...
Then we have EA...so logic is if you can earn more money then do it.
Now in this case it just seems that much of Driving Club is what pd needs. So if they can share why not , id love it even more.
By the way, if EA bought PD we would get porsche right?
 

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