Should 'Sport Mode' be completely separate from 'GT Mode'?

[ImaRobot]

I've thought sometimes they could try to make a dual physics system, a more arcadey one for the more casuals, and a more realistic one for the more sim-racers that want more simulation feeling. This could be dividied in the two parts, sport mode for the realistic one, and then you could choose between both at career mode and lobbies

That sounds like it would be a development nightmare. It also sounds a bit unnecessary because this game isn't really even that demanding in the physics department to warrant as much as a change like that. Simple aids seem to do that trick just fine. Would also lead to some issues if you test and tune cars outside of that specific mode, as when you get into it which ever one, they wouldn't drive the same anymore.

 

[DefNotJake]

Yes. Trying to make systems that treat both the same makes both of them worse, as the game design goals are not even nearly the same for the two modes.

GT Mode is fundamentally an RPG experience. Anyone should be able to progress and complete it given enough time invested. Good drivers will complete it faster, but it's not intended to be so difficult that any reasonable player can't make their way through with a bit of effort. It also has a bit of Pokemon collecting thrown in there, which is fine and suits the idea of building up your car/garage to the point where you're this monstrously successful driver. This is where I feel the "7 to 77" idea fits best and really makes the most sense.

Sport Mode is fundamentally a competitive mode. By definition, not everyone wins a competitive mode. Players are differentiated entirely by skill, and no amount of grinding will allow a bad driver to be more successful. They simply have to get better. And so having additional gates on content is just frustrating and pointless - if you're a good enough driver to progress to higher level races you shouldn't be stuck grinding out a car to get there.

These two modes are catering to vastly different playstyles and types of players. Not making them separate means making compromises, which means that one or both are worse than they would otherwise be.

I wish I could pin this comment lol
Just a better worded version of my post, thank you. 👍

 

[ScottPuss20]

I've thought sometimes they could try to make a dual physics system, a more arcadey one for the more casuals, and a more realistic one for the more sim-racers that want more simulation feeling. This could be dividied in the two parts, sport mode for the realistic one, and then you could choose between both at career mode and lobbies

That would be great but it won't happen.

 

[RacingFan1]

That sounds like it would be a development nightmare. It also sounds a bit unnecessary because this game isn't really even that demanding in the physics department to warrant as much as a change like that. Simple aids seem to do that trick just fine. Would also lead to some issues if you test and tune cars outside of that specific mode, as when you get into it which ever one, they wouldn't drive the same anymore.

That would be great but it won't happen.

In GT5 and GT6 we had the skid recovery force.... They should take that and develop it further.
I dont think it would be so complicated. Just develop realistic physics on one hand, then on the other hand add tons of grip and maybe some hidden driving aids, and voila, you have the arcade-ish version of the physics.

 

[ImaRobot]

In GT5 and GT6 we had the skid recovery force.... They should take that and develop it further.
I dont think it would be so complicated. Just develop realistic physics on one hand, then on the other hand add tons of grip and maybe some hidden driving aids, and voila, you have the arcade-ish version of the physics.

That’s an aid. What you’re describing is aids, not physics changes.

The game already has hidden driving aids because they want the game to be easily accessible to a normal, casual, gamer.

 

[Imari]

That’s an aid. What you’re describing is aids, not physics changes.

The game already has hidden driving aids because they want the game to be easily accessible to a normal, casual, gamer.

To be fair, SRF was more like changed physics values than it was an aid. If you're changing the slip curves for all the tyres I'm OK with calling that changed physics, as the tyre model is the heart of the physics in a game like GT. And that was the problem with it, even though it was clearly less realistic it was also faster if you knew how to abuse it. In a racing game where the short term goal for the player is always "go faster", it creates a nasty dynamic where there's an incentive to drive the less realistic physics mode if you want to go faster.

In GT5 and GT6 we had the skid recovery force.... They should take that and develop it further.
I dont think it would be so complicated. Just develop realistic physics on one hand, then on the other hand add tons of grip and maybe some hidden driving aids, and voila, you have the arcade-ish version of the physics.

I don't think altered physics is actually the correct way to go about making the game more accessible.

The idea is to be able to introduce less skilled players to correct realistic driving techniques in a slow and progressive manner. In real life, this would mean that you start driving slow, underpowered cars and build up your skills from there. In a game that's just not fun, so you have aids that will help moderate throttle input so that they don't spin out in high power RWD cars, smooth their steering inputs so that they're not ping-ponging all over the track, and stability control to help them balance on the edge of traction.

These aren't changing the physics, they're modifying the player's inputs. That was everyone is using the same inputs and players with aids aren't doing things that are legitimately impossible for players without, it's just that the players with aids get a helping hand. And all of these should be tuned so that they're slower for a skilled player to use, as the idea is that as players grow out of the need for these aids they can disable them and go faster. But for a new player they'll go overall faster if they're not picking themselves out of the grass every other corner, and they'll have more fun too.

Also, SRF was garbage and should die in a fire. Polyphony should absolutely not use that particular system again.

 

[ImaRobot]

To be fair, SRF was more like changed physics values than it was an aid. If you're changing the slip curves for all the tyres I'm OK with calling that changed physics, as the tyre model is the heart of the physics in a game like GT. And that was the problem with it, even though it was clearly less realistic it was also faster if you knew how to abuse it. In a racing game where the short term goal for the player is always "go faster", it creates a nasty dynamic where there's an incentive to drive the less realistic physics mode if you want to go faster.

Really? I didn’t see it much different than a stupid powerful TCS or STM. If that’s the case, than that sounds like a terrible idea.

 

[Imari]

Really? I didn’t see it much different than a stupid powerful TCS or STM. If that’s the case, than that sounds like a terrible idea.

If you drove like a normal-ish person, yeah, it pretty much was. But you could get away with driving cars really aggressively, and in addition to the stabilising effect it also let you go through corners at higher G than would otherwise be possible. In any time trial that allowed it (which was the vast majority of them) it was basically mandatory to compete at the top level.

It wasn't super obvious that it was modifying the physics, but it wasn't exactly well hidden either if you started playing around with it. And it's entirely unclear why Polyphony thought that it was necessary on top of the already available ASM/TCM/ABS/Active Steering assists. Those all pretty much function the way they're supposed to, with the possible exception of ABS. It's nearly impossible for a skilled player to be faster with them on, they just stop you from crashing as much. It's really, really easy for a skilled player (or anyone really) to go faster with SRF.

 

[RacingFan1]

To be fair, SRF was more like changed physics values than it was an aid. If you're changing the slip curves for all the tyres I'm OK with calling that changed physics, as the tyre model is the heart of the physics in a game like GT. And that was the problem with it, even though it was clearly less realistic it was also faster if you knew how to abuse it. In a racing game where the short term goal for the player is always "go faster", it creates a nasty dynamic where there's an incentive to drive the less realistic physics mode if you want to go faster.


I don't think altered physics is actually the correct way to go about making the game more accessible.

The idea is to be able to introduce less skilled players to correct realistic driving techniques in a slow and progressive manner. In real life, this would mean that you start driving slow, underpowered cars and build up your skills from there. In a game that's just not fun, so you have aids that will help moderate throttle input so that they don't spin out in high power RWD cars, smooth their steering inputs so that they're not ping-ponging all over the track, and stability control to help them balance on the edge of traction.

These aren't changing the physics, they're modifying the player's inputs. That was everyone is using the same inputs and players with aids aren't doing things that are legitimately impossible for players without, it's just that the players with aids get a helping hand. And all of these should be tuned so that they're slower for a skilled player to use, as the idea is that as players grow out of the need for these aids they can disable them and go faster. But for a new player they'll go overall faster if they're not picking themselves out of the grass every other corner, and they'll have more fun too.

Also, SRF was garbage and should die in a fire. Polyphony should absolutely not use that particular system again.

Casual players don't want to do all this learning process, they want to pick cool cars they like and drive them, there is a reason why they are called casuals, they just want to play for some time and not in depth, and have fun in this limited time.
SRF wasn't garbage, but it was very good thing for casual players.

 

[Samus]

SRF wasn't garbage

It was an assist that magically gave you more grip when you started losing it, the exact opposite of reality. It was garbage, not even casuals need such make believe assists, real ones are perfectly adequate, as they were from GT1-GT4.

It's more like a cheat than an assist.

 

[RacingFan1]

It was an assist that magically gave you more grip when you started losing it, the exact opposite of reality. It was garbage, not even casuals need such make believe assists, real ones are perfectly adequate, as they were from GT1-GT4.

It's more like a cheat than an assist.

That's exactly casuals liked, a ton of grip, so its a fun, more arcadey experience and not difficult to drive for them.
It's not a cheat, it's like playing a game in easy mode

 

[Samus]

That's exactly casuals liked, a ton of grip, so its a fun, more arcadey experience and not difficult to drive for them.
It's not a cheat, it's like playing a game in easy mode

How do you know the casuals liked it, have you asked all the millions? There is a difference between giving players realistic aids like ABS and TCS to make cars easier to driver and giving them magic grip when they lose it.

Like I say, the casual millions kept buying previous GT instalments without needing it, it's not necessary.

 

[RacingFan1]

How do you know the casuals liked it, have you asked all the millions? There is a difference between giving players realistic aids like ABS and TCS to make cars easier to driver and giving them magic grip when they lose it.

Like I say, the casual millions kept buying previous GT instalments without needing it, it's not necessary.

Yes they liked it, the vast majority of all casuals I knew. Because it made driving far easier and fun for them. And if they didn't, chances are they weren't casuals anymore.
Why would you argue about what they like...

 

[ImaRobot]

Yes they liked it, the vast majority of all casuals I knew. Because it made driving far easier and fun for them. And if they didn't, chances are they weren't casuals anymore.

I'm a casual and I'm in no way slow with racing games. You're arbitrarily deciding what it means, when there really isn't a fit term for it. Casual just doesn't mean new/slower people. It also fits for people who don't play that often or have the time to do so. I'm a casual player becuase I don't have a lot of time, and I do not want a ton of unrealistic grip, that sounds terrible.

Why would you argue about what they like...

That's literally what you're doing here.

 

[05XR8]

From what I see in Sport Mode replays, the aids seem fine with players only needing AT and TCS On.

 

[RacingFan1]

I'm a casual and I'm in no way slow with racing games. You're arbitrarily deciding what it means, when there really isn't a fit term for it. Casual just doesn't mean new/slower people. It also fits for people who don't play that often or have the time to do so. I'm a casual player becuase I don't have a lot of time, and I do not want a ton of unrealistic grip, that sounds terrible.


That's literally what you're doing here.

How often do you play? Are you sure you're a casual? Because probably not
Casuals are the ones that don't play much, for a start, not necessarily mean newbies or slow players. Just people that don't play much, because they don't have time or whatever.
You may be a casual that want realistic phyisics but I grant you not all of them are like you, more like the opposite, the vast majority of casuals I know, want tons of grip so their car don't spin off and they can mash the throttle and all that kind of stuff.

 

[TokoTurismo]

How often do you play? Are you sure you're a casual? Because probably not
Casuals are the ones that don't play much, for a start, not necessarily mean newbies or slow players. Just people that don't play much, because they don't have time or whatever.
You may be a casual that want realistic phyisics but I grant you not all of them are like you, more like the opposite, the vast majority of casuals I know, want tons of grip so their car don't spin off and they can mash the throttle and all that kind of stuff.

Actually, I too am a casual who doesn't want more grip thank you. I don't consider myself a hardcore racer, but I much prefer GT not having any aid to hinder its physics.

 

[Imari]

Casual players don't want to do all this learning process, they want to pick cool cars they like and drive them, there is a reason why they are called casuals, they just want to play for some time and not in depth, and have fun in this limited time.
SRF wasn't garbage, but it was very good thing for casual players.

SRF as the specific implementation of an assist as designed by Polyphony was garbage.

The idea of an assist to help casual or less skilled players have a good experience with less time invested is absolutely not a bad one. In fact it's excellent, and I'd go so far as to say that any racing game that doesn't attempt something similar is awful and should be mocked. Assists for casual and less skilled players are important and necessary, and generally don't get as much attention as they deserve.

But the implementation matters. If the assist is one that just makes all cars faster and easier to drive for all players under all conditions, then that's poor design. If the assist makes an otherwise realistic game less so, then that's poor design. SRF could have been designed to help out casual and less skilled players but not be able to be used by aliens to go even faster than was possible on normal physics. That would have been a very good thing.

That's not what we got. I get that you liked SRF and found it valuable, but surely you can see the logic behind the damage that it did to the rest of the game. Wouldn't you prefer something that gave you and other casuals the assistance you enjoyed, without also breaking time trials for higher level drivers? Why does the assist that makes the game fun for you to play also have to damage the realism for anyone else trying to be competitive?

That's exactly casuals liked, a ton of grip, so its a fun, more arcadey experience and not difficult to drive for them.
It's not a cheat, it's like playing a game in easy mode

If you want more grip put on racing softs. The racing tyres already have massively unrealistic amounts of grip. There's a reasonable argument that RS are "arcade" as most cars no longer behave anything like a real car on real rubber.

The advantage of SRF to less skilled players was not so much the grip (which was available in other ways if they wished), it was the way it modified slip curves so that it was more tolerant of driving beyond the limits of grip. The downside was that the implementation was completely abusable by skilled players.

The dumb thing is that an implementation of the same idea that isn't abusable existed in the game also as TCM and ASM. SRF didn't need to exist.

 

[RacingFan1]

SRF as the specific implementation of an assist as designed by Polyphony was garbage.

The idea of an assist to help casual or less skilled players have a good experience with less time invested is absolutely not a bad one. In fact it's excellent, and I'd go so far as to say that any racing game that doesn't attempt something similar is awful and should be mocked. Assists for casual and less skilled players are important and necessary, and generally don't get as much attention as they deserve.

But the implementation matters. If the assist is one that just makes all cars faster and easier to drive for all players under all conditions, then that's poor design. If the assist makes an otherwise realistic game less so, then that's poor design. SRF could have been designed to help out casual and less skilled players but not be able to be used by aliens to go even faster than was possible on normal physics. That would have been a very good thing.

That's not what we got. I get that you liked SRF and found it valuable, but surely you can see the logic behind the damage that it did to the rest of the game. Wouldn't you prefer something that gave you and other casuals the assistance you enjoyed, without also breaking time trials for higher level drivers? Why does the assist that makes the game fun for you to play also have to damage the realism for anyone else trying to be competitive?


If you want more grip put on racing softs. The racing tyres already have massively unrealistic amounts of grip. There's a reasonable argument that RS are "arcade" as most cars no longer behave anything like a real car on real rubber.

The advantage of SRF to less skilled players was not so much the grip (which was available in other ways if they wished), it was the way it modified slip curves so that it was more tolerant of driving beyond the limits of grip. The downside was that the implementation was completely abusable by skilled players.

The dumb thing is that an implementation of the same idea that isn't abusable existed in the game also as TCM and ASM. SRF didn't need to exist.

Why you even bother to be so technical. Casuals don't care so much about all that, nor about realism. They just want to have some fun. Abusable... again, so what, when those casuals have fun don't care about what is abusable and what is not.
SRF wasn't allowed on time trials, it was just an optional thing on GT mode and lobbies, it didn't harm the normal physics.
I used to play without SRF, but every now and then I did some more casual/fun races with SRF and those races were quite fun in their own way, to appreciate it, it's just about having a bit of an open mind.

 

[Imari]

Why you even bother to be so technical. Casuals don't care so much about all that, nor about realism. They just want to have some fun. Abusable... again, so what, when those casuals have fun don't care about what is abusable and what is not.
SRF wasn't allowed on time trials, it was just an optional thing on GT mode and lobbies, it didn't harm the normal physics.
I used to play without SRF, but every now and then I did some more casual/fun races with SRF and those races were quite fun in their own way, to appreciate it, it's just about having a bit of an open mind.

Just because casuals don't care doesn't mean it isn't bad for the game overall. A good game is not designed by only considering one group of people, it's designed by considering what is best for everyone playing the game.

I apologise if it wasn't clear, SRF wasn't allowed in all time trials. But it was allowed in some (and not just a handful), and it was forced on in others. Both of these things are a problem, and with how stingy the Gran Turismo has been in the online era with making online events available it's not like it's something that was easily avoidable either.

It did harm the normal physics simply by existing, because it made everyone using normal physics in a competitive event automatically at a disadvantage. If you have a game that you're presenting as competitive, then that matters in the same way that balance between cars matters. If one car is significantly faster than the others, then it becomes required in order to compete at a high level. Using anything else means leaving time on the table, and you don't win by handicapping yourself before you've even started.

I think you're the one struggling to have an open mind as to how other people might be affected by what you suggest. I've proposed that something that accomplishes the same thing for casuals (making driving easy, safe and fun) without messing up higher level play (creating abusable physics issues) would be great, because then all players would be happy. This isn't some zero sum game where only the casuals or the aliens can have fun - both is entirely possible and has been done. But your response is to dismiss it with "casuals don't care" and "why be so technical". You're dismissing the concerns of anyone who isn't a casual racer, for literally no good reason.

I get that you had fun with SRF, but I fail to see what you stand to lose with an assist system that couldn't be abused to go faster than "normal" physics. Tell me why you'd prefer a system that is good for casuals but bad for aliens over a system that is good for everyone.

 

[Samus]

They just want to have some fun

And plenty of games have demonstrated they can easily do that without magic aids like SRF.

 

[RacingFan1]

Just because casuals don't care doesn't mean it isn't bad for the game overall. A good game is not designed by only considering one group of people, it's designed by considering what is best for everyone playing the game.

I apologise if it wasn't clear, SRF wasn't allowed in all time trials. But it was allowed in some (and not just a handful), and it was forced on in others. Both of these things are a problem, and with how stingy the Gran Turismo has been in the online era with making online events available it's not like it's something that was easily avoidable either.

It did harm the normal physics simply by existing, because it made everyone using normal physics in a competitive event automatically at a disadvantage. If you have a game that you're presenting as competitive, then that matters in the same way that balance between cars matters. If one car is significantly faster than the others, then it becomes required in order to compete at a high level. Using anything else means leaving time on the table, and you don't win by handicapping yourself before you've even started.

I think you're the one struggling to have an open mind as to how other people might be affected by what you suggest. I've proposed that something that accomplishes the same thing for casuals (making driving easy, safe and fun) without messing up higher level play (creating abusable physics issues) would be great, because then all players would be happy. This isn't some zero sum game where only the casuals or the aliens can have fun - both is entirely possible and has been done. But your response is to dismiss it with "casuals don't care" and "why be so technical". You're dismissing the concerns of anyone who isn't a casual racer, for literally no good reason.

I get that you had fun with SRF, but I fail to see what you stand to lose with an assist system that couldn't be abused to go faster than "normal" physics. Tell me why you'd prefer a system that is good for casuals but bad for aliens over a system that is good for everyone.

Well, you choose to take part of any competitive event you want, if there's an event with SRF and you don't like it, then don't take part of it. Go for another one that has SRF disallowed.
Same for lobbies, there was the clear option of entering the ones with SRF banned, or not, it's all about what you choose and where you want to enter.
Open mind means respect others preferences if they are not the same as yours. The world doesnt revolve around you and your particular perferences, man.
You seem to think, don't know why, that those dual physics conflict with each other and same was for SRF. Not true. Again, they were completely separate things, there were events for both SRF allowed or disallowed, and same for lobbies, you dont like SRF then enter a lobby with SRF banned, that's it. Like two different game modes that can coexist no problem.

 

[Samus]

You still haven't demonstrated with any evidence that a large majority of players have a preference for using SRF. Anecdotes of a few of your friends isn't enough.

 

[RacingFan1]

You still haven't demonstrated with any evidence that a large majority of players have a preference for using SRF. Anecdotes of a few of your friends isn't enough.

Besides people I knew, there were a very large amount of lobbies of people playing with SRF enabled in both GT5 and GT6. So that means so many people liked it. I suppose only PD have the data in detail but I'm sure it's a very important part of the player base.

 

[Imari]

Well, you choose to take part of any competitive event you want, if there's an event with SRF and you don't like it, then don't take part of it. Go for another one that has SRF disallowed.
Same for lobbies, there was the clear option of entering the ones with SRF banned, or not, it's all about what you choose and where you want to enter.

As I said, Gran Turismo doesn't provide a wide range of online events so this isn't always possible. Some weeks it basically meant not playing the game.

You may think that's reasonable. I don't. People who bought the game should be able to play the game however they like.

If GT provided full duplicates of all events with SRF on, off and free choice I could maybe get on board. But I'd still think it's a clunky solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place in a properly designed game.

Open mind means respect others preferences if they are not the same as yours. The world doesnt revolve around you and your particular perferences, man.

What, my preference that everyone should be able to play the game the way they want to? How selfish of me.

I'm respecting your preference for some sort of assist that makes the game fun for you. Nowhere have I suggested that any game shouldn't have such a thing, just that it shouldn't take the specific form of GT5 style SRF. For reasons that I have explained extensively.

Why can't you respect mine for a competitive mode that doesn't require using arcade physics to be competitive? How are you affected by an assist system that simply doesn't allow for physics exploits by hardcore players, which by your own admission you are not?

Stop assuming that I'm being selfish and read what I'm actually suggesting.

You seem to think, don't know why, that those dual physics conflict with each other and same was for SRF. Not true. Again, they were completely separate things, there were events for both SRF allowed or disallowed, and same for lobbies, you dont like SRF then enter a lobby with SRF banned, that's it. Like two different game modes that can coexist no problem.

If you don't know why then maybe read what I post. They cannot coexist without problem unless they are completely separated. They were not.

You say SRF and normal physics don't conflict but offer no reasoning or support for this.

You say SRF and normal physics were totally separate, even though this is demonstrably false.

Even if they were to separate them properly in the future, a game that completely disallows an assist from any major competitive mode is probably going to be alienating for casual players. Which is part of what we're trying to avoid, no? I want all players to be able to partake of all parts of the game in a way that is fun and engaging for them. I'm not asking for casual players to get nothing, I want them to have assists if that's what makes the game fun for them. I just don't want the assists to break competitive play.

You seem to struggle to understand this really very simple concept - that I want assists that make the whole game fun for everyone.

Maybe this is hard for you because English isn't your first language, but you're telling competitive players not to play bits of the game they don't like and then telling me I'm being selfish for wanting everyone to be able to have fun playing everything.

Here's a simple question - do you want all players to be able to enjoy all parts of the game in whatever way is most fun for them?
Please answer yes or no.

 

[Samus]

Besides people I knew, there were a very large amount of lobbies of people playing with SRF enabled in both GT5 and GT6. So that means so many people liked it. I suppose only PD have the data in detail but I'm sure it's a very important part of the player base.

Playing in lobbies with SRF =/= they prefer it. As @Imari has pointed out, far too often it was the only choice.

 

[RacingFan1]

As I said, Gran Turismo doesn't provide a wide range of online events so this isn't always possible. Some weeks it basically meant not playing the game.

You may think that's reasonable. I don't. People who bought the game should be able to play the game however they like.

If GT provided full duplicates of all events with SRF on, off and free choice I could maybe get on board. But I'd still think it's a clunky solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place in a properly designed game.

What, my preference that everyone should be able to play the game the way they want to? How selfish of me.

I'm respecting your preference for some sort of assist that makes the game fun for you. Nowhere have I suggested that any game shouldn't have such a thing, just that it shouldn't take the specific form of GT5 style SRF. For reasons that I have explained extensively.

Why can't you respect mine for a competitive mode that doesn't require using arcade physics to be competitive? How are you affected by an assist system that simply doesn't allow for physics exploits by hardcore players, which by your own admission you are not?

Stop assuming that I'm being selfish and read what I'm actually suggesting.

If you don't know why then maybe read what I post. They cannot coexist without problem unless they are completely separated. They were not.

You say SRF and normal physics don't conflict but offer no reasoning or support for this.

You say SRF and normal physics were totally separate, even though this is demonstrably false.

Even if they were to separate them properly in the future, a game that completely disallows an assist from any major competitive mode is probably going to be alienating for casual players. Which is part of what we're trying to avoid, no? I want all players to be able to partake of all parts of the game in a way that is fun and engaging for them. I'm not asking for casual players to get nothing, I want them to have assists if that's what makes the game fun for them. I just don't want the assists to break competitive play.

You seem to struggle to understand this really very simple concept - that I want assists that make the whole game fun for everyone.

Maybe this is hard for you because English isn't your first language, but you're telling competitive players not to play bits of the game they don't like and then telling me I'm being selfish for wanting everyone to be able to have fun playing everything.

Here's a simple question - do you want all players to be able to enjoy all parts of the game in whatever way is most fun for them?
Please answer yes or no.

You want everybody to play exactly the way you want and you want the "game mode" you dislike to be removed, basically. So tell me this is not selfishness.
In practice, SRF was not considered an assist, but one of the two "game modes". In the events that SRF was banned, you could still use the other, normal assists, like TC, or stability control, ABS, or whatever.
You think we should not separate the players in two groups and there must be a way to create a physics that are appealling for both hardcore sim players and casuals that want a more easy, arcade-ish thing... Well, it sounds fantastic and you are free to dream, but I don't think that is possible at all.

Playing in lobbies with SRF =/= they prefer it. As @Imari has pointed out, far too often it was the only choice.

It was a totally optional thing that the lobby creator can allow or disallow, and there were always plenty of lobbies with SRF banned, I remember it quite well. Also totally optional to join any lobby you want, you were never forced.
I agree though that they sould have made a perfectly dual event system with both SRF on and off all the time, for everybody to choose.

 

[05XR8]

Separating the player base, is something many gtplaneters have posted they disagree with. Which, that SRF apparently did.

Not sure if Countersteering is a cheat, but other than a wheel vs DS4, not much else separating non-professional players.

 

[kjeldsen]

The GT Mode should be more focussed on educating the players to be good drivers, yes they will still grind cars and unlock them for GT-Sport mode as well, but the basic driving model should be exactly the same.

But after playing online and against other players since the beta, i doubt i would spend to much time in GT-Mode, racing AI is boring and uninspiring after racing real players.

 

[RacingFan1]

Separating the player base, is something many gtplaneters have posted they disagree with. Which, that SRF apparently did.

Sure, separating the player base is something that you don't really wish for, but, is it avoidable though? There will always be casual players and there will always be the more hardcore sim racers who seek for realism. Can we mix and keep them together? I don't think so.