Should there even be 'tuned cars' in GT5?

Should there be 'tuned cars' in GT5 the full game?

  • Total voters
    97
raymagnu
If you call the bored-up 2L, 4sylinder inline TT engine (Used on the Toyota Supra JGTC) the same as a 3L 6sylinder inline TT. They may be built upon many of the same principals but they are still different. If you don't belive me check the specks on the Top Secret GT300 Supra, a "roadgoing" car approved for JGTC by the head of that leage. 2.2L there, not 3L or more.

Found this while I was searching for something to back up what I allready knew:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_GT#GT300

This states this: "Regulations in GT500 are considerably looser than most GT classifications, and teams are free to change engines with other models made by the manufacturer, change the alignment of the engine, or add forced-induction systems to models which do not normally have it. The chassis may also be heavily modified, with lightweight tube-frame "clips" being allowed forward and back of the main cockpit, although the car must overall look similar to its road-going variant. These regulations result in cars which are possibly the fastest GT racing cars in the world. The rationale for this was to allow manufacturers to field competitive cars without having to spend large amounts of money for homologation versions of the race car's road car counterparts (although some companies, notably Honda and Nissan, have still developed homologation specials)."
Click to expand...


Note: At the top of the page youve directed me to its states "This articles does not cite any references or sources." Which brings me to the point that anyone could have created it. Which makes it totally irrelevant next to the official statements distributed from the official JGTC.


I got my information off the actual official SuperGT site. Ive also watched documents were drivers like Keiichi Tsuchiya state "it is the factory frame and engine block" not that the official guide to JGTC DVD matters (sarcasm). Motorsports is one of my career fields so ive none these things before the internet came about. Also cant anyone right up a wikipedia article, and doesnt it allow you to correct someone there if there article isnt 100% accurate? I see many bad inaccuracies can go a long way ex. (you believe it and encourage others to). I also think theres a page on wikipedia were they state that there articles may not bee 100% accurate. But these documents I stated before are the 2008 restrictions and requirements from an official source (the actaul website of JGTC) so theres nothing else I need to say concerning the topic. Im sorry if it seems that you my have waist your time with this, but with me if it doesnt come straight from the source its irrelevant.
 
i personally think they should stick to the formula of gt4: you can buy stock cars (eg honda s2000) or pre-tuned cars (eg amuse s2000), but you shouldnt be able to buy stock cars and put separately purchased bodykits/racing stickers/etc on it.. leave it at wheels and spoilers as far as exterior mods go
 
I got my information off the actual official SuperGT site. Ive also watched documents were drivers like Keiichi Tsuchiya state "it is the factory frame and engine block" not that the official guide to JGTC DVD matters. Also cant anyone right up a wikipedia article, and doesnt it allow you to correct someone there if there article isnt 100% accurate? I see one bad inaccuracy can go a long way. I also think theres a page on wikipedia were they state that there articles may not bee 100% accurate. But these documents I stated before are the 2008 restrictions and requirements from an official source (the actaul website of JGTC) so theres nothing else I need to say concerning the topic. Im sorry if it seems that you my have waist your time with this, but with me if it doesnt come straight from the source its irrelevant.
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Manufacturers can use any engine they want in the JGTC, look at the nismo Z GT500 it used the VQ30DETT and the the VK45DE. But in real live the Z has a VQ35HR. The MR-S GT300 has a 3S-GTE, the standaard MR-S has a 1ZZ-FE the same story for the celica.

The supra used the 3S-GTE and later the 1UZ-GE, street supra has a 2JZ-GTE.
 
Soprano 3 1 3
I got my information off the actual official SuperGT site. Ive also watched documents were drivers like Keiichi Tsuchiya state "it is the factory frame and engine block" not that the official guide to JGTC DVD matters. Also cant anyone right up a wikipedia article, and doesnt it allow you to correct someone there if there article isnt 100% accurate? I see one bad inaccuracy can go a long way. I also think theres a page on wikipedia were they state that there articles may not bee 100% accurate. But these documents I stated before are the 2008 restrictions and requirements from an official source (the actaul website of JGTC) so theres nothing else I need to say concerning the topic. Im sorry if it seems that you my have waist your time with this, but with me if it doesnt come straight from the source its irrelevant.
Click to expand...

The thing about that is that, the site you found, the official site doesn't exactly contredict anything I've said (except maybe that first post, witch was an abreviation to prove a point) or what wikipedia said.
Wikipedia isn't that unreliable. If you're that sure of your self you are welcome to try and change the wikipedia spot.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because we are not getting anywhere with this, and when it comes down to it all, I don't care.
 
Read the direct post carefully. The first fact states;

Permitted in the relevant parts or areas if authorized in the regulations, or used as standard on the original car and original engine.

*Lamens terms: If its not an original part form the original car or engine it will have to be inspected in authorized. These parts do not include the frame which will be standard in all JGTC vehicles.

An engine which is produced by original manufacture and is legal for road use, and admitted by FIA and/or JAF can be mounted.

**Lamens terms: This means that the engine doesnt have to be the original. As long as its made by the original manufacturer, is streetlegal to Japanese regulations and is reviewed, and allowed to enter by the FIA and or JAF.

Not the original engine... The original manufacturer. You people are not comprehending. No where is it stated that having a different engine from the factory car is restricited. As long as its JPN street legal and passes the authorization it is fine. The quote from Tsuchiya is directed towards the Arta NSX (for those of you who didnt know) which uses the same engine block as the factory. The whole point of this was to correct people who think JGTC cars are not based off factory road vehicles. When we you say based believe it or not you are talking of the frame which everything sits on. Most use there factory engine blocks and some use other streetlegal blocks from the original manufacturer. Read the post again that is quoted from the JGTC.
 
Soprano 3 1 3
Read the direct post carefully. The first fact states;

Permitted in the relevant parts or areas if authorized in the regulations, or used as standard on the original car and original engine.

An engine which is produced by original manufacture and is legal for road use, and admitted by FIA and/or JAF can be mounted

Not the original engine... The original manufacturer. You people are not comprehending. No where is it stated that having a different engine from the factory car is restricited. As long as its JPN street legal and passes the authorization it is fine. The quote from Tsuchiya is directed towards the Arta NSX (for those of you who didnt know) which uses the same engine block as the factory. The whole point of this was to correct people who think JGTC cars are not based off factory road vehicles. When we you say based believe it or not you are talking of the frame which everything sits on. Most use there factory engine blocks and some use other streetlegal blocks from the original manufacturer. Read the post again that is quoted from the JGTC.
Click to expand...

Then what the deuce are we arguing about?
 
LOL... TheCracker stated "JGTC cars are not actually based on the road cars that they take their name and vague shape from."

This annoyed me becuase its completely false and mostly all JPN manufacturers and consumers look at JGTC as a reference when designing a manufacturing there vehicles. For example, its sort of like if Honda won 5-6 series straight (Not saying they will) you better believe that there sales are going to skyrocket as well as Mugen, Spoon etc. NSX's and S2000s would probably be all over the place. Not because of they share the same emblems as the JGTC vers. but because the JGTC vers. are based off a car that they drive to work, the mall and so forth. Its the same reason the WRC is so important to Subaru, Peugot, Ford Euro, Mitsu etc.
 
I think we actualy agree then:) LOL

I think that I am sleep deprived of having a newborn in the house (witch is BIG! :)) and are a little under consentrated from trying to quit smoking. Sorry about that.
 
CONGRATS! raymagnu. Quiting is hard but I stayed away from it for a while and smoked 1 and didnt like it as much. Which is why I now buy 2 single ciggs every now and then just to remind myself that its not all that. I never by a whole carton anymore. Have fun being a parent also im pretty sure you will always be occupied and will have no time for smoking breaks lol.
 
Thanks! My son is my motivation. Yeah, that was what I was hoping for, but with my nevrotic girlfriend I even have to fight just to change his diapers. LOL!
 
Soprano 3 1 3
LOL... TheCracker stated "JGTC cars are not actually based on the road cars that they take their name and vague shape from."

This annoyed me becuase its completely false and mostly all JPN manufacturers and consumers look at JGTC as a reference when designing a manufacturing there vehicles. For example, its sort of like if Honda won 5-6 series straight (Not saying they will) you better believe that there sales are going to skyrocket as well as Mugen, Spoon etc. NSX's and S2000s would probably be all over the place. Not because of they share the same emblems as the JGTC vers. but because the JGTC vers. are based off a car that they drive to work, the mall and so forth. Its the same reason the WRC is so important to Subaru, Peugot, Ford Euro, Mitsu etc.
Click to expand...
Actually he's right. Not all Super GT cars are ground up machines but a lot of the big factory GT500 cars are. Take the NISMO GT-R GT500 many race and love in past GT games, other than it's name is doesn't share a single part with the R34 GT-R it's shape and name come from. Basically these cars are what is known as a silhouette, it looks like a certain car but it isn't built on the same chassis. The NISMO GT500 is built around a carbon tub and uses for the most part specifically made racing parts. A far cry from the road car.

DTM cars are the same, note a DTM car is actually elligable to race in the Super GT with a hanfull of modifications. A DTM A4 shares nothing in common with any Audi A4 road car on the market except it's name and that it resembles a modified A4 in shape. The same applies to many of the big factory Super GT GT500 cars and some of the GT300 cars too. Now an FIA GT car is different, they are based on the road cars, they share a chassis though sometime they are allowed to modify the chassis to a degree, but it is still based on the same platform as the road car you can drive out of a showroom. They used modified bodywork based on the same dimensions as the road car, unlike a silhouette a FIA cars bodywork has to keep to certain dimsnsions form the road version too, a GT500 silhouette can be different in every single dimension both the x,y and z dimensions of the car overall and the specific dimensions of individual body parts.
 
Dude... Did I even mention DTM or anything beside JGTC? Make sure you read the entire post next time.


Argue with JGTC ive stated whats clearley viewable on there website, I think there statements more credible than anyones but if thats what you believe more power to you.👍

FYI: to all those that misunderstand the meaning of a racecar being a silhouette this may only apply to the body itself. As in JGTC the bodies maybe called silhouettes and has nothing to do with the frame. Because someone calls it a silhouette that doesnt mean thats what it is. Know were on the regulation site do they use this word once. This whole conversation seems silly to me because ive known these things for more than half my life and there an official source to use as a reference. I wont go on with this subject since its off topic, maybe I will look into creating my own thread stating the facts since so many people seem to have incorrect information or dont understand facts about these vehicles.

Yea we all know its called Super GT. If you put a dot net on the end you can look up the facts yourself.
 
It's not even called JGTC anymore, it hasn't been for some time. But whatever, please show me where it says that all the cars are based on the road cars chassis. Please.

Rules changes are being brought in so that FIA GT cars will be competetive against Super GT cars with minimal modifications. As it stands a Super GT GT500 car can beat an FIA GT1 car even though the GT1 can have almost 200bhp more. That's not because both are built to the same general rules and principals. The basis for the Super GT's loose regulations was so that manufacturers didn't have to spend even more millions in developing and selling a homologation road car, which is what they have to do for FIA GT cars. Take the V8 BMW M3's from a couple of years ago, the regular M3 was 6 cylinder, as such BMW needed to build a road going M3 with a V8 because the road car had an inline 6. The result was a limited production M3 GT-R street car. Japanese GT cars don't need a road car to homologate them, as long as they resemble in shape and name a production car from that manufacturer.


The following cars are allowed to enter the Suepr GT...
1. JAF-GT Cars :

Cars conforming to the "2006 JAF Grand Touring Car (JAF-GT) Technical Regulations".
2. Cars approved exceptionally by the GTA as follows (Specially approved cars):

(1) JAF-GT cars that participated in the 2005 JGTC,
(2) FIA GT homologated cars,
(3) Le Mans GT cars,
(4) SCCA GT cars,
(5) Grand-American GT cars,
(6) DTM 2000 cars,
(7) Other cars approved exceptionally by the GTA
 
Man your ebarassing yourself. You obviously havent read carefully. Ive already clarified that some cars dont have the original engines but as long as there made by the same manufacturer, if it passes JPN street regulations, and passes regulations from the FIA and JAF there fine. Your simply arguing what we have already covered and im not really understanding what your trying to present and were the information originates from...




QUOTED FROM; Supergt.net/en Once again
Everything is quoted straight from the SuperGT regulation deprt. except the blue text.



Bodywork
Dimensions:

Except for modifications as permitted by the regulations, all bodywork dimensions and shape must remain original, and must be in accordance with the data shown on the homologation forms and documents of the registered vehicle. Ground clearance is measured from every direction of the complete vehicle perimeter and must be at least 50mm from the ground. Any and all suspended parts cannot be situated below this height. Front and rear overhang as well as wheelbase dimensions must be identical to those of the original vehicle. However, cars having an overhang of less than 900mm are allowed to extend the overhang by a maximum of 80mm, but never to exceed 900mm.

Windshield & Windows:

The front windshield must be in accordance with the rules under "Safety regulations for homologated cars and registered vehicles" in the JAF regulations. The front windshield glass may be replaced with polycarbonate of a thickness greater than 6mm and which permits the cockpit interior to be visible, provided the same installation position and shape as the original glass is maintained.

Changes in bodywork materials:

Composite materials and light metals may be substituted for front and rear bumper, fender, door, bonnet, rear hatch gate and boot-lid components provided that these substitutions maintain enough structural strength and do not result in configurative changes. Louvers, ribbing or lips etc. may be installed, if they do not significantly alter the external appearance of the vehicle (maximum protrusion allowed is 20mm).

Bodywork (monocoque structure) and bulkhead:

Bulkhead and cockpit areas must not differ from the original vehicle specifications (monocoque structure), and the bulkhead must not be modified except as permitted by the regulations. However, modifications to the bulkhead for reinforcement purposes are permitted.
Further, openings may be made for the purpose of connecting the tubular structure defined under the regulations below to the rollcage.
Bodywork structure fore of the front bulkhead and hind of the rear bulkhead:
Main structure (structural framework) situated fore of the front bulkhead and hind of the rear bulkhead may be cut and replaced by a tubular structure that is connected to the rollcage. In this case, it is obligatory to install a crushable structure defined under the regulations.


Lamens terms: The roll cage my be connected/modified to the frame VIA tubular/piping to furthure inforce the cage.


Fenders:

On each side of the car, fender dimensions may be extended (increased in width) (NOT THE FRAME, THE BODY) up to 5cm over the width of the original vehicle, but the maximum width must not exceed 200cm.
The front part of the front fender and rear part of the rear fender must fit within the area defined under the regulations as viewed from above.

Hard tops for open-top cars:

Hard tops may be installed for open-top cars. But the hard top must maintain its configuration and be similar to the original. Use of material is unrestricted.
 
You know, racing series aside, I would personally just like to see a "race preparation" option for any vehicle in the game ever, similar to the original Gran Turismo -- surely someone remembers that.

I am opposed to the Forza or NFS type of modification for appearance, but you should at the very least be able to change the basic livery colors and number of your vehicle. A couple added touches such as a roll cage/roll bar (an option which cost entirely too much in GT4), aero aids (more than just the single sky-high spoiler you get in GT4), flared fenders, etc.

It would be a significant improvement over the relatively unexciting (IMO) pre-built race cars that you can find all over the place in GT4.
 
saint_dracula
What I meant was:

the cars like the Ford GT tuned cars

Basically cars that PD tuned themselves.
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Why Exactly? What do you have against PD's Tuned Cars? These have been around since GT1 and I don't see them stopping anytime soon. I unshamefully voted yes for these cars to be in GT5 as I have always liked what GT created. These cars always signify the passion they have for cars, much like their fans and I don't want that removed. For me, They are the templates when it comes to tuning my cars. For GT5, I welcome them back now that we get to, for the first time since GT2, put body work on the cars. When it comes out, I will finally be able to bring to life my own race cars that I've only been able to put on paper.
 
Soprano 3 1 3
LOL... TheCracker stated "JGTC cars are not actually based on the road cars that they take their name and vague shape from."
Click to expand...

So, SuperGT/JGTC cars have to have their engine (which has only to basically share it's block with any other car made by that manufacture as long as it is FiA approved) in vaguely the same position as it's road going counter-part, fitted into a shell (or passenger section of the shell) based on that used by the road car. And that's it. These are the only passing resembalence to the road going version as you have stated.

I knew all this before you kindly pointed it out to us all :rolleyes: - Do you still think you can really say that they are based on the road cars? Do you think you could take a fresh from the factory Nissan 350z and turn it into a Nismo Xanavi/Motul Pitwork Nissan Fairlady Z Z33 without bining 98% of the road car and heavily modifying the remaining 2% ?

It's stretching the meaning of 'based on' to almost NASCAR like levels.
 
It is, and as I said before many GT500 cars are only really connected to the road going counterparts by thier name and appearence ie shape and dimensions. They are pretty different under the bodywork. Nor does any of what he said negate the fact that DTM cars are allowed to race in Super GT. Also there is one thing that hasn't been noted about Soprano's post, thoes rules he just read back only account for the JAF-GT class 1 from 07 onwards. JAF-GT spec cars from 05 are still allowed to enter and the rules for thoes are even looser.

The Super GT allows cars from different racing disciplines to compete together with small modifactions, usually restrictor plates and not much more. The simple fact that DMT regulations are accepted is all the proof you need that silhouettes are allowed and I quotes "A DTM car is a no-compromise touring car with the silhouette of a four-door production car designed specifically for motorsport". Does anyone really think that it is actually possible to strip an R34 GT-R and turn it into a NISMPO GT-R GT500 without modifying the chassis and engine which are the two biggest parts of a car?
 
Yo... dont waiste your time cause your not making any sense. Amazingly the actual facts are in front of you face and your still dont know youve been proven wrong.

Base = Frame for those who dont know. And I dont have to say anything. I can let facts speak for themselves.


Fact > What you think



👍
 
The GT500 do have factory based frame's only the body panels are totaly diverent. You can't compare super GT with NASCAR, because GT cars still have very much in common with the factory models.
 
Only not all Super GT cars are JAF GT class 1 or 2 (2007 and onwards) spec cars. Yes the JAF GT class 1 current rules are exactley as Soprano posted, but that doesn't discount the fact that even if you are adamant that thoes cars are still close enough to the production model to be classed as a modified production car, out and out silhouettes still race in the Super GT. JAF GT 07 and 08 spec cars are not the only specification allowed to race in Super GT, yet they are the only specification that Soprano posted. No I never said all the cars are silhouettes, on the contrary I said that some of them are, this is something that Soprano has missed, is ignoring or doesn't understand. Silhouettes are allowed in Super GT, as are cars built to JAF GT rules from 2005 which raced in the JGTC which are also not the same as the 2007 list of rules that he posted. Then theres the simple fact that cars that don't come from any of the predetirmined classes and rule types eligable to enter can still get the nod from the GTA. Basically all Soprano has done is give one set of car rules that the Super GT allows to enter only he's failed to realise that that rule set doesn't account for all the cars that enter, theoretically any car can enter as long as the GTA are happy to let it.
 
Of course there modified production cars, there racecars. The whole point is that there infact factory based. They sit on the same chasis that the dealership model does with the exception of the rollcage being mounted. The body panels have nothing to do with the frame/skeletal structure or chassis that everything sits on. No point in arguing with these guys anymore let them believe what they want. 👍

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=103695

For those who want the official regulations/facts of the SuperGT.
 
Soprano 3 1 3
They sit on the same chasis that the dealership model does with the exception of the rollcage being mounted.
Click to expand...

No they don't. Their chassis is not the same as the dealership models. They run the road car's passenger compartment but have seperate sub-frames at the front and back that contain the suspension, engine and transmission. It is this that makes up the chassis of the car.

The area highlighted in pink is the passenger compartment of the shell, the rest of it is cut off it on a SuperGT/JGTC car.

 
Come on, guys. Can we stop the arguing? This has gone way off topic and this thread might be closed should this heep going. If your gonna continue, then do it in the PMs.
 
Soprano 3 1 3
Of course there modified production cars, there racecars. The whole point is that there infact factory based. They sit on the same chasis that the dealership model does with the exception of the rollcage being mounted. The body panels have nothing to do with the frame/skeletal structure or chassis that everything sits on. No point in arguing with these guys anymore let them believe what they want. 👍

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=103695

For those who want the official regulations/facts of the SuperGT.
Click to expand...
Once again you completely ignore the fact that I point out (yet again) which is that even if you want to call JAF GT Class 1 rules production based (though I could easilly argue against that), not all the Super GT cars meet thoes regulations since Super GT allows a wide varity of cars that meet a wide variety of other regulations. Regulations such as various FIA class regulation and thoes that govern competitions such as the DTM and that cars that don't even meet any particular allowed regulation can still enter if given the nod from the GTA. Well ignored mate.
 
If PD is gonna give us more car customization options, like splitters, wings, and wide body kits, I think "tuner cars" are a little redundant. Sure, they have unique liveries, and all, but since they usually have middle of the road performance parts, which I throw out in favor of the top of the line parts, they end up being little more than a pretty face. Why buy an "R tune GTR" if you can make a normal R34 just as track ready by modding it yourself? I just don't really see the point of them, unless they have really unique liveries, or you like that particular tuner a lot. However, I doubt we're gonna get all we want in terms of car customization, so what the heck, throw em' in for a lil variety PD.
 

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