Should VGT go die?

[Stephen220378]

The thing with VGT is that it was fun in GT6, you got a look at what manufacturers would do if they could get away with it and a chance to drive the (ahem) cars and to me that's fine. It had its own little menu out the way of the real game where you could look at them or completely ignore them if you didn't like it.

With GT Sport it's just taking the piss, you would think that with the FIA partnership they keep going on about they would want the racing to be as authentic as possible but it just comes across as a bit embarrassing really.

 

[mjm23race]

And that is the point I was trying to illustrate. The VGT project is of historical significance. The companies that are involved here are not local shops. These are global powerhouses when it comes to what we drive.

And what we wear. Nike & Jordan

I believe we are experiencing some forms of technology that our grandchildren will someday see. I honestly expect to be playing Gran Turismo against my grandchildren and you know what? The cars we are driving could very well be one of these VGT's!!

Yes your grandchildren might see this technology........ In GT7.

 

[7HO]

The thing with VGT is that it was fun in GT6, you got a look at what manufacturers would do if they could get away with it and a chance to drive the (ahem) cars and to me that's fine. It had its own little menu out the way of the real game where you could look at them or completely ignore them if you didn't like it.

With GT Sport it's just taking the piss, you would think that with the FIA partnership they keep going on about they would want the racing to be as authentic as possible but it just comes across as a bit embarrassing really.

I see the idea. FIA working with Polyphony to ensure the future of motor racing because they have the vision to see virtual racing is the future of motor racing and at this time they can use virtual racing to give us a glimpse of what the future may look like.

VGT can be cool but they have taken it to a silly place. GT3 is my favourite racing class because it gives manufacturers freedom but is still balanced so there is a lot of variety and the racing is great, real life that is because at the moment I haven't seen evidence of Gr.3 being anything like that in GTS. The thing is Manufacturers create far more awesome road cars but there is no platform to race these kind of unrestricted cars, imagine a class where manufacturers could build cars like McLaren P1's as race cars and BoP was simply used so these cars could compete with each other. There are a lot of reasons why this can't happen in real life but there is no reason we can't have this in the virtual world, that is what I would like to see out of VGT, not open cockpit cars in a racing game when the real world is actually moving away from open cockpit cars completely.

 

[unit-one]

Lamborghini is back on the VGT list.

 

[Zuku]

Nothing stopping you from playing Assetto Corsa.

Honestly... why must people have the mindset of "I must only play this one title, and nothing else"?

Simply put GT was probably a lot I do mean a lot of members first title here. Had such an YUGE! Impact on their life at the time of playing it that going away was a form of betrayal.

That's the best I could come up with cause it happened to me.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I think people misconstrue the game changing as opposed to themselves changing.

It's no different to anything in life.
As you get older, your perception changes.
So what once was awesome as a youngster, no longer holds the same excitement.

Perhaps some people expect GT to be as awesome as they perceived it was when they were younger?
And are now in that period when it doesn't.

A kid at 12 years old may love GT Sport and can't fault it.
A 40 year old may pick holes in it left, right, and centre.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think people misconstrue the game changing as opposed to themselves changing.

It's no different to anything in life.
As you get older, your perception changes.
So what once was awesome as a youngster, no longer holds the same excitement.

Perhaps some people expect GT to be as awesome as they perceived it was when they were younger?
And are now in that period when it doesn't.

A kid at 12 years old may love GT Sport and can't fault it.
A 40 year old may pick holes in it left, right, and centre.

Just my 2 cents.

It's a full priced game that's very different in focus, gameplay and content relative to the full priced games released by the same developer for 12 years. Not everyone is going to be happy about that, especially since PD missed the boat at the launch of the console and now, three years in, still isn't releasing a full content game as they have in the past. I daresay people have been anxiously awaiting the release of GT7 on the new, more powerful system for years now. After seeing what could be done on the PS3 expectations were very high. Now it turns out they'll have to wait likely 4 or 5 years since the launch of the previous game and 4 or 5 years into the life cycle of the console before seeing their game released. Add to that a new console is releasing soon, VR compatibility is obviously limiting what can be done with the game, potentially all the old supposedly "future proof" premiums may have gone by the wayside and it's a recipe for disappointment.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

"Not everyone is going to be happy about that"
I get that. 👍

There's every chance I'll be wanting more too.
But I'll wait until I see what the game has to offer.

I'm hoping the online lobbies will re-invigorate my personal communities to get involved again.
The PS4 seemed to kill that off.
If nothing more, that will do me.

 

[Samus]

People of course change, what I care about in a GT game now I likely didn't care about as a kid playing GT1 but there is no doubting that the game has also changed a lot, especially in particular regarding GT Sport. For those of us who don't care for online play and want a strong single player game as with the past games it's a huge departure.

Also more on topic the allure of Gran Turismo was always the huge real life car roster. Yes, it has always had the fantasy cars as well since GT1 but as I say, the allure was the real cars. Now with this huge VGT and fictional car focus and overall small number that somewhat unique USP of GT is gone.

For many people, myself included, it's becoming pretty clear this just isn't the game for us and we'll have to wait for GT7.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

People of course change, what I care about in a GT game now I likely didn't care about as a kid playing GT1 but there is no doubting that the game has also changed a lot, especially in particular regarding GT Sport. For those of us who don't care for online play and want a strong single player game as with the past games it's a huge departure.

Also more on topic the allure of Gran Turismo was always the huge real life car roster. Yes, it has always had the fantasy cars as well since GT1 but as I say, the allure was the real cars. Now with this huge VGT and fictional car focus and overall small number that somewhat unique USP of GT is gone.

For many people, myself included, it's becoming pretty clear this just isn't the game for us and we'll have to wait for GT7.

Sadly, I tend to agree with your last sentence.
All I want is a PS4 GT that I can sink my teeth into.
I'm not sure GT Sport will give me that.

I do though, as I posted in another thread, hope it revitalises the online lobbies of my friends who migrated to the PS4.
I don't doubt it will do that.
So in that respect I look forward to the release of the game.
Whether the game had a huge (or not) offline element was never an catalyst in that regard.
So at the end of the day I look forward once again to racing with my mates.
There seems almost no question that graphics, sounds, and physics will be a step up from GT6.

This game just needs to be released.
And I'm genuinely looking forward to it.


*Edit*
Sees the thread topic.

I have no issue with VGT's.
In fact, I think PD should be patted on the back for initialising such a project across the globe.
Not many, if any, video games can make such a claim respectively.

I enjoy them all.
I do think some are a bit over-baked.
But hey, that's life.

Looking forward to trying the 2 that have been promised for ages.
And looking forward to what's to come in the future.

 

[glassjaw]

People of course change, what I care about in a GT game now I likely didn't care about as a kid playing GT1 but there is no doubting that the game has also changed a lot, especially in particular regarding GT Sport. For those of us who don't care for online play and want a strong single player game as with the past games it's a huge departure.

There was a quote I heard from Kaz during Team VVV's coverage of the Q&A that I may have interpreted incorrectly, but it really irked me. Kaz said something to the effect of making a new game that matches the size, scope, and feature set of the first GT with the same kind of rich single-player experience is too difficult to do anymore.

Now, he may have meant that kind of structure is too challenging for today's average player. I'd understand that assessment. I can't remember his exact response, but if he meant it as a development limitation, he's speaking absolute nonsense — especially considering Turn 10 has been consistently pumping out those kinds of games for over ten years now. In an ironic twist of fate, I wouldn't be surprised if FM6 ended up being the best Gran Turismo of this generation.

 

[Imari]

There was a quote I heard from Kaz during Team VVV's coverage of the Q&A that I may have interpreted incorrectly, but it really irked me. Kaz said something to the effect of making a new game that matches the size, scope, and feature set of the first GT with the same kind of rich single-player experience is too difficult to do anymore.

Now, he may have meant that kind of structure is too challenging for today's average player. I'd understand that assessment. I can't remember his exact response, but if he meant it as a development limitation, he's speaking absolute nonsense — especially considering Turn 10 has been consistently pumping out those kinds of games for over ten years now. In an ironic twist of fate, I wouldn't be surprised if FM6 ended up being the best Gran Turismo of this generation.

It may be the only Gran Turismo of this generation, unless Polyphony really steps up the pace on GT7.

Anyway, back to your first point:



@ about 8 minutes in. Basically he talks about how these days you can't make a game with slow progression that takes hundreds of hours to complete.

Which is obviously bollocks. Let's put aside the fact that GT4/5/6 are significantly more massive games than GT1 or GT3. There's plenty of other modern games with that sort of scope. For starters there's a whole genre built around milking gameplay for hundreds of hours, MMORPGs. WoW and friends are the kings of incremental improvement over hundreds of hours. I've got something like 170 days played on my WoW account in the last ten years.

Then there's games like GTA V, or MGS V, or The Witcher 3, all of which have well over 100 hours of content in them. You can rush the main campaign start to finish in less time than that, but you can do the same in Gran Turismo games. The only way you ever get 100+ hours out of any GT game is going for completion, so it's only fair to treat other games the same way.

Unfortunately, this is one of those moments where he's demonstrably talking out his bottom. He's straight up wrong that you can't make a massive game. However, what he may have meant is that modern players are far less tolerant of the sorts of lazy pacing and game design that was prevalent 20 years ago. Gathering 20 bear asses is no longer considered to be acceptable content. Neither is grinding Like the Wind for six hours so that you can reach the next level.

Contrary to what he says, it's nothing to do with the size of the game and everything to do with how it's laid out. Players these days are far smarter and far more discerning. They won't just play because it's a game. You have to make it worth their time, which means that they need to feel like they're progressing, that they have agency, that their skill matters, that they're achieving or experiencing something.

Unfortunately, game design is one of Polyphony's weakest areas. They make pretty good systems and high quality assets, but they struggle to present them in a manner that is the most engaging that it could be.

 

[Stephen220378]

It may be the only Gran Turismo of this generation, unless Polyphony really steps up the pace on GT7.

Anyway, back to your first point:



@ about 8 minutes in. Basically he talks about how these days you can't make a game with slow progression that takes hundreds of hours to complete.

Which is obviously bollocks. Let's put aside the fact that GT4/5/6 are significantly more massive games than GT1 or GT3. There's plenty of other modern games with that sort of scope. For starters there's a whole genre built around milking gameplay for hundreds of hours, MMORPGs. WoW and friends are the kings of incremental improvement over hundreds of hours. I've got something like 170 days played on my WoW account in the last ten years.

Then there's games like GTA V, or MGS V, or The Witcher 3, all of which have well over 100 hours of content in them. You can rush the main campaign start to finish in less time than that, but you can do the same in Gran Turismo games. The only way you ever get 100+ hours out of any GT game is going for completion, so it's only fair to treat other games the same way.

Unfortunately, this is one of those moments where he's demonstrably talking out his bottom. He's straight up wrong that you can't make a massive game. However, what he may have meant is that modern players are far less tolerant of the sorts of lazy pacing and game design that was prevalent 20 years ago. Gathering 20 bear asses is no longer considered to be acceptable content. Neither is grinding Like the Wind for six hours so that you can reach the next level.

Contrary to what he says, it's nothing to do with the size of the game and everything to do with how it's laid out. Players these days are far smarter and far more discerning. They won't just play because it's a game. You have to make it worth their time, which means that they need to feel like they're progressing, that they have agency, that their skill matters, that they're achieving or experiencing something.

Unfortunately, game design is one of Polyphony's weakest areas. They make pretty good systems and high quality assets, but they struggle to present them in a manner that is the most engaging that it could be.

Totally agree with this. How difficult can it be to make a racing game with a big campaign/single player events? It's not Fallout, there's no big story to write or characters to create. All you need is a decent selection of cars, a decent selection of tracks and a ton of events structured properly. He can take a look at PCars to see how a decent campaign mode is done.

 

[Imari]

How difficult can it be to make a racing game with a big campaign/single player events?

Not particularly difficult if you want something like GT6, but I think that there's certainly some skill and finesse to making a good career. Especially for a game with a large car list.

Something like pCARS makes it a bit easier because a lot of the races are either single make or sort themselves into obvious classes. But with something like Gram Turismo or Forza where the idea is to allow the player as much freedom as possible, I think it can become difficult to create situations where there are many viable and competitive choices.

It's part of why I'm not a fan of the 1000+ cars idea; it simply makes balancing the game into a total nightmare.

I think the best way is actually to selectively choose a car list that organises itself into sensible categories. As long as you have a reasonable amount of say, sub 300hp wagons, you can make an interesting race or series for that. I think car list, track list and career design are intimately related, and unfortunately Polyphony's method of simply adding whatever cars they think are cool makes it really hard for them to make races for everything to fit.

The Schwimmwagen or the Samba Bus are great examples. They're kind of cool and interesting vehicles, but how on earth does anyone make an interesting race for either of those? I will never, ever, ever drive another Samba Bus after that nightmare on the TGTT in GT5.

FM6: Apex is a good example of what I mean, despite it being very small. They've chosen what races they wanted, and then chosen 6-9 suitable cars that would be competitive and relevant to fit each. Pony cars, touring cars, LMPs, GT cars, hypercars, and so on. Very clever, and I think that idea can be scaled up to a full game without too much trouble.

 

[Stephen220378]

Not particularly difficult if you want something like GT6, but I think that there's certainly some skill and finesse to making a good career. Especially for a game with a large car list.

Something like pCARS makes it a bit easier because a lot of the races are either single make or sort themselves into obvious classes. But with something like Gram Turismo or Forza where the idea is to allow the player as much freedom as possible, I think it can become difficult to create situations where there are many viable and competitive choices.

It's part of why I'm not a fan of the 1000+ cars idea; it simply makes balancing the game into a total nightmare.

I think the best way is actually to selectively choose a car list that organises itself into sensible categories. As long as you have a reasonable amount of say, sub 300hp wagons, you can make an interesting race or series for that. I think car list, track list and career design are intimately related, and unfortunately Polyphony's method of simply adding whatever cars they think are cool makes it really hard for them to make races for everything to fit.

The Schwimmwagen or the Samba Bus are great examples. They're kind of cool and interesting vehicles, but how on earth does anyone make an interesting race for either of those? I will never, ever, ever drive another Samba Bus after that nightmare on the TGTT in GT5.

FM6: Apex is a good example of what I mean, despite it being very small. They've chosen what races they wanted, and then chosen 6-9 suitable cars that would be competitive and relevant to fit each. Pony cars, touring cars, LMPs, GT cars, hypercars, and so on. Very clever, and I think that idea can be scaled up to a full game without too much trouble.

There's no reason Gran Turismo can't do both, a career mode on the UI following the PCars method of actually taking you through a racing career and a Gran Turismo mode where it follows the same format as traditional GT where you have a certain amount of freedom in your car choice for each race. Add in driving missions mode similar to GT4 and the licence tests and there's a solid amount of content for single player. Make the race career mode where you can earn big credits and the GT mode where you win small amounts and cars.

 

[Samus]

It just seems like for GT5 and GT6 almost no thought went into the GT Mode. They were, save a few tweaks, a copy/paste of the previous games. No new ideas, no innovation, just the same dull menus with events to pick from a list, the same old events of the past.

If someone had instead sat down for a few days and really had a look at what they had and what they could do, it could have been so much better (provided the rubber-band AI and rolling starts also disappeared).

Hopefully what Kaz is saying in an arse about face way is that the tired old GT format IS indeed tired, and that is what won't work in the modern era. Because he would be absolutely right in that regard. A GT mode in general though, definitely still a place for it, done better.

 

[Exorcet]

I think the best way is actually to selectively choose a car list that organises itself into sensible categories. As long as you have a reasonable amount of say, sub 300hp wagons, you can make an interesting race or series for that. I think car list, track list and career design are intimately related, and unfortunately Polyphony's method of simply adding whatever cars they think are cool makes it really hard for them to make races for everything to fit.

I think the original race mod idea provided a nice solution to the balancing problem. It was also realistic to a degree. Almost no one races stock road cars. Tuning and mods also indirectly expands the car list, even if it is already huge, by allowing a large amount of variation with each vehicle.

Unfortunately, GT never really progressed in this area. In fact they regressed in a lot of ways over the years, so it was never likely to happen.

As for VGT, I still think it is a fantastic idea. It just wasn't taken seriously enough. Fantasy cars are a non issue for me. A vehicle doesn't need to be built to be realistic.

 

[glassjaw]

There's no reason Gran Turismo can't do both, a career mode on the UI following the PCars method of actually taking you through a racing career and a Gran Turismo mode where it follows the same format as traditional GT where you have a certain amount of freedom in your car choice for each race. Add in driving missions mode similar to GT4 and the licence tests and there's a solid amount of content for single player. Make the race career mode where you can earn big credits and the GT mode where you win small amounts and cars.

They're hesitating to make one single-player campaign, I don't think making two is the answer. Project Cars already does the racing career thing and does it quite well, GT doesn't have to be that game too. That's my biggest problem with the way the genre is right now — too many developers are trying to make other games. GT should do what it's always done best, not try and chase iRacing. Same goes for Project Cars, Forza, Assetto Corsa, and the rest. It's ok that all of these games don't necessarily work the same way or chase the same audience. They shouldn't.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

With GT Sport it's just taking the piss, you would think that with the FIA partnership they keep going on about they would want the racing to be as authentic as possible but it just comes across as a bit embarrassing really.

Please, by all means clarify by what you mean by embarrassing because I don't see it.

Almost every manufacturer jumped in on this program and I seriously doubt that FIA wasn't in the dark on the matter either when it comes to the VGT Program.

 

[Stephen220378]

Please, by all means clarify by what you mean by embarrassing because I don't see it.

Almost every manufacturer jumped in on this program and I seriously doubt that FIA wasn't in the dark on the matter either when it comes to the VGT Program.

You can't see what's embarrassing about touting the authenticity of the FIA as a selling point then having a bunch of fake cars on track with real world ones?

 

[McLaren]

You can't see what's embarrassing about touting the authenticity of the FIA as a selling point then having a bunch of fake cars on track with real world ones?

Ridiculous performance aside from the Tomahawk, I believe others have pointed out some of these cars wouldn't meet the FIA rules like the VW.

There are a couple of really neat VGTs like the FT-1, but the majority seem to be more of a design study that manufacturers release to show off potential influences in their future products.

 

[Stephen220378]

Ridiculous performance aside from the Tomahawk, I believe others have pointed out some of these cars wouldn't meet the FIA rules like the VW.

There are a couple of really neat VGTs like the FT-1, but the majority seem to be more of a design study that manufacturers release to show off potential influences in their future products.

It's like I said in my original post at the top of this page, they were fun in GT6 but they look ridiculous in a game touting the authenticity of the FIA.

 

[glassjaw]

Yeah, I don't think they should go away by any means. But maybe they just shouldn't be racing R18s and 908s either. The Bugatti VGT is one of the most realistic of the bunch, and it still looks hilarious next to any prototype. Even if they eliminate the performance differences, I'm pretty sure having a car twice the size of others in its class is a deal breaker right there.

 

[mister dog]

In those first pics that were released of GTS last year, you could already see one together with the R18 at the ring. That was the first alarm bell that went off here.

Also it looks like half of their GT3 lineup are fantasy cars. They look great though especially the f-type and the 4C, but i don't understand why they would resort to that when they have the budget to license everything out there on 4 wheels. The Corvette for example is also something they came up with whilst they could have just licensed the real one.

I'm curious to see exactly how much fantasy cars will be in the final car list on launch.

 

[glassjaw]

In those first pics that were released of GTS last year, you could already see one together with the R18 at the ring. That was the first alarm bell that went off here.

Also it looks like half of their GT3 lineup are fantasy cars. They look great though especially the f-type and the 4C, but i don't understand why they would resort to that when they have the budget to license everything out there on 4 wheels. The Corvette for example is also something they came up with whilst they could have just licensed the real one.

I'm curious to see exactly how much fantasy cars will be in the final car list on launch.

I do think they made the wrong choice not just getting the C7R, but aside from that lone example I love the Group 3 cars. They look fantastic and in many cases, even better than much of the GT3 field. Unlike the VGTs, those are tasteful, realistic interpretations of racing cars that could exist today in that category. Honestly, the cars I'm most excited to drive in GTS that have been revealed thus far are the 4C and FT-1.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

You can't see what's embarrassing about touting the authenticity of the FIA as a selling point then having a bunch of fake cars on track with real world ones?

It's like I said in my original post at the top of this page, they were fun in GT6 but they look ridiculous in a game touting the authenticity of the FIA.

I can see the "technical" issues with it, but I hardly believe embarrassing or ridiculous are the right words. In fact, it seems the complete opposite.

Jean Todt, President of the FIA said: “This innovative new partnership will ensure that millions of Gran Turismo and motor sport fans can race on even more detailed tracks at home. The Gran Turismo series has played an important role in helping to attract a new fan base to motor sport. With the input of FIA in the development of the upcoming FIA Online Championship, Gran Turismo 6 will now offer an experience even closer to the real world of motor sport. We are also excited to be working closely with Polyphony Digital and Sony Computer Entertainment in the future to find new ways to continue to make motor sport more accessible to millions of fans that share a passion for racing.”

I believe the collaboration with FIA and the VGT Projects as their attempt to make normally difficult racing games more accessible and cool all the while raising awareness of the sport.

There are a couple of really neat VGTs like the FT-1, but the majority seem to be more of a design study that manufacturers release to show off potential influences in their future products.

Indeed. I am generally concerned about the future of the sport of car racing in America. Check out this study about getting a drivers license. It's almost as if the love affair for the automobile in this country is coming to end. Racing game sales here in this country aren't exactly burning up the sales charts anymore.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/01/the-decline-of-the-drivers-license/425169/

I have to applaud PDI, FIA, and the automobile manufactures around the globe for taking some form of initiative in trying new and exciting things.

Is it perfect? No. But it sure isn't going to hurt.

 

[Earth]

It just seems like for GT5 and GT6 almost no thought went into the GT Mode. They were, save a few tweaks, a copy/paste of the previous games. No new ideas, no innovation, just the same dull menus with events to pick from a list, the same old events of the past.

If someone had instead sat down for a few days and really had a look at what they had and what they could do, it could have been so much better (provided the rubber-band AI and rolling starts also disappeared).

Hopefully what Kaz is saying in an arse about face way is that the tired old GT format IS indeed tired, and that is what won't work in the modern era. Because he would be absolutely right in that regard. A GT mode in general though, definitely still a place for it, done better.

Kaz has made it clear if he isnt interested in something his team will neglect it. Badly, and for YEARS. See damage, GT Mode, AI, sounds, etc.

Im sure Kaz looked at GT5's PSN data and saw not many people completed a significant part of the career and to him that was probably a signal to cut it down. Hey PD, I didnt finish the Nurburgring 24 hours in GT5 because I didnt grind the game's lame single player for 150 hours to unlock it. The thing is, grinding can be fun for many people, if executed right. Executed wrong, and its a disaster.

Kaz = Ken Kutaragi

Yes the eccentric ideas of both men were great at times, and the product they created was great, at first, but over time its become clear a more simple straight forward direction was needed.

 

[Castrol96]

Personally getting bored of waiting for the VGT's. Been 3 years just to see what that new Nike Car would look like. Probably get canceled.

 

[McLaren]

The Nike car is something that just goes too far. It was an interesting concept back in GT4 (esp. since I believe we had its creator here at one point explaining it), but now it's opened the door for the Jordan brand in VGT and I just have to shake my head at the fact we have shoe companies creating cars for a simulator.

 

[Imari]

The Nike car is something that just goes too far. It was an interesting concept back in GT4 (esp. since I believe we had its creator here at one point explaining it), but now it's opened the door for the Jordan brand in VGT and I just have to shake my head at the fact we have shoe companies creating cars for a simulator.

If it's going to be someone that's not a manufacturer, I figure at least get a styling house in on the program. I would punt so many puppies to see a Pininfarina VGT. It was such a shame that the Bertone VGT got canned.