Sim Brake Thoughts

[mrbasher]

Don't forget, load cells and strain gauges were made to measure force as easily as possible. They are not the ONLY way to measure force. There are many types of force measuring systems out there. Pre-electronic scales used springs and measured.... travel...

 

[Ripster]

There still seems to be some confusion in this thread and I can't really understand why. (not Zathra5_ , that is correct)

If we boil a pot based pedal and a "pressure" based pedal down to their essences, we get two pedals that require a specific amount of pressure to achieve a specific amount of braking. Even if you remove the spring from a pot based pedal, it STILL takes some kind of force to move it, however slight. Now don't quit reading here and post a response please!

Stop for a moment and imagine if both pedals required the same exact amount of force to achieve 100 percent braking and that the travel on those two pedals to achieve that braking level were identical. (and yes, they can be) What would be the difference?

People seem to get stuck on what or how the sensors measure what is going on. The result is identical if the forces are identical. The forces are what really matters.

You have to get traditional pot pedal braking out of your head. Yes, this is in fact based more on position than pressure. However, this is only because there is not enough resistance on the pedal.

Lastly, it's not generally enough to simply stuff a stiffer spring or a rubber ball in a pot brake. It works better, but you lose full travel. However, there is a simple solution to this problem and it's works just fine. I spoke of this on the ISR forums some 6 or more months ago and I apologize but I won't detail the circuit necessary here.

I think the only real solution here is to just finish developing a brake pedal that doesn't use a pressure sensor and let people use it. Until then, people will trust what manufacturers of pressure sensitive pedals are telling them outright.

I'm here to tell you, it's about how the pressure is delivered and how much, more than anything else.

I agree it is pressure related... but for me it is more about pedal travel once pressure has been applied. As mentioned somewhere in this thread, once the pad has reached the disc or drum there is very little travel after that. At this point it is more about feedback applying pressure. And a load cell simulates this quite well, and the Fanatec pedals even give you additional feedback simulating lockup.

When I got my Fanatec Elite Pedals it was like night and day. I openly stated I would give up my Fanatec CSR wheel and go back to my MS wheel before I gave up my pedals.

 

[mrbasher]

I think you might be surprised how far the brake pedal in a real car travels after the pads start making contact with the rotors on a real car

That said, I don't think anyone on this thread is stating that pot based pedals like the non-load cell Fanatec pedals or unmodified Logitech pedals compare favorably to a load cell brake. Please understand that...

What they are saying (and I) is that if the pressures involved where the same, the results would be the same. You do not need a load cell to accomplish what people, and you, are after.

 

[Ripster]

Don't forget, load cells and strain gauges were made to measure force as easily as possible. They are not the ONLY way to measure force. There are many types of force measuring systems out there. Pre-electronic scales used springs and measured.... travel...

Absolutely true but the are not the most accurate way of measuring force, a balance scale would be much more accurate as you reached the limits of the scale. However it was much quicker to use than a balance scale.

But I digress since accuracy really does not matter in this application.

 

[Ripster]

I think you might be surprised how far the brake pedal in a real car travels after the pads start making contact with the rotors on a real car

That said, I don't think anyone on this thread is stating that pot based pedals like the non-load cell Fanatec pedals or unmodified Logitech pedals compare favorably to a load cell brake. Please understand that...

What they are saying (and I) is that if the pressures involved where the same, the results would be the same. You do not need a load cell to accomplish what people, and you, are after.

And if you look way back up the thread I don't disagree with you. But in the current round of pedals there is a lot of play (travel) in them. Shorten the distance in the last part of the pedal travel that requires additional force and you have a good result.

But my question now is... "Why reinvent the wheel...? The load cell does a good job of this now."

If you want to really make sim racing more immersive find a cheap and better way to emulate G forces. But that is not the topic of this thread is it?

But I am starting to see that we all agree on the basic premise of how everything works, so why don't we just move on to a new topic of discussion.

So how do I find a group of people to race with that are not very fast, want to race inside the car (since that is what you do in real life), who use a wheel with no aids turned on and drive only cars within their capabilities. And driving clean, where winning is not the primary goal and a clean pass is the responsibility of the driver doing the passing. Full damage, with fuel and tire wear on where it affects racing

 

[mrbasher]

Absolutely true but the are not the most accurate way of measuring force, a balance scale would be much more accurate as you reached the limits of the scale. However it was much quicker to use than a balance scale.

But I digress since accuracy really does not matter in this application.

Precision is most important in the case of a sim brake pedal. If we were measuring actual weight, both precision and accuracy would be important. However, that is correct. What you've stated doesn't matter too much in this case.

My point was simply that measuring travel = measuring force in the case of a spring scale. A balance scale measures the force of something in relation to the force of gravity which is entirely different.

 

[mrbasher]

And if you look way back up the thread I don't disagree with you. But in the current round of pedals there is a lot of play (travel) in them. Shorten the distance in the last part of the pedal travel that requires additional force and you have a good result.

But my question now is... "Why reinvent the wheel...? The load cell does a good job of this now."

If you want to really make sim racing more immersive find a cheap and better way to emulate G forces.

They are expensive and if not expensive, they break. They require properly designed circuits to function without error. They also require properly engineered design. In short, it's oddly complex for what it is doing. In my opinion, it's mostly for the sake of marketing.

Also, why NOT reinvent the wheel? I don't subscribe to being happy with what other people make and luckily, I don't have to be.

I apologize if it seems as though I am being forceful with my view... However, it took quite some time for us to get to the point at which stated your point: Current pedals don't do what we are saying. On this, I surely agree. With the exception of the ECCI pot pedals...

 

[ravey1981]

Are you planning on bringing a new brake system to market Mr Basher?

 

[mrbasher]

Are you planning on bringing a new brake system to market Mr Basher?

I have been entertaining the thought for quite some time and even made a prototype... So, the answer is... Maybe.

No photos or details. Sorry. Some day, when I like what I see, I'll post something. That's about all I am comfortable saying for the time being.

I will only say, I've been down all the roads discussed and they all lead to the same place. Thus, the key is in the execution.

 

[Ripster]

Precision is most important in the case of a sim brake pedal. If we were measuring actual weight, both precision and accuracy would be important. However, that is correct. What you've stated doesn't matter too much in this case.

My point was simply that measuring travel = measuring force in the case of a spring scale. A balance scale measures the force of something in relation to the force of gravity which is entirely different.

I would say that repeatability would be important (you say precision), but like I said it we basically agree and could discuss this all day. But my point was that a spring gets less accurate as it reaches the end of its travel. But I will repeat myself it does not matter in this application.

 

[Ripster]

They are expensive and if not expensive, they break. They require properly designed circuits to function without error. They also require properly engineered design. In short, it's oddly complex for what it is doing. In my opinion, it's mostly for the sake of marketing.

Also, why NOT reinvent the wheel? I don't subscribe to being happy with what other people make and luckily, I don't have to be.

I apologize if it seems as though I am being forceful with my view... However, it took quite some time for us to get to the point at which stated your point: Current pedals don't do what we are saying. On this, I surely agree. With the exception of the ECCI pot pedals...

If this is true I stand corrected since I have not had the opportunity to use these pedals.

Is this product that good? I can get a top of the line Fanatec setup and an RSeat for less than an ECCI wheel and pedal set. And the pots on these are rated to last 1-1 1/2 years? So doing a cost versus value for your dollar where would we draw the line. I know this line is different for all of us but in this case this line is beyond my field of vision, though perhaps not my pocket book. But there are other things I would rather spend my monies on.

 

[mrbasher]

I have never used the ECCI pedals or their wheel. Their "value" would be in the eyes of the purchaser really. However, with regard to their pedals, there is a lot more to their pedals that makes them so expensive. Further information would be best obtained from them. However, they have been doing this for a long time and provide excellent products based upon reviews I have read. I have no doubt they know what they are doing.

I'm also not suggesting someone purchase a set of their pedals instead of a set of ClubSports or something.

I can make you one guaranty... The pots in your CSR Elite pedals (clutch and accelerator) are of significantly less quality than those used in the ECCI pedals or even Logitech pedals.

I see what is happening here and I can assure you it's unnecessary to take a defensive position with regard to Fanatec products. There being an alternative to a load cell should in no way detract from the value of the pedals you have.

 

[derekspeare]

My market research has shown that over 25,000 sim racers around the world use some form of "pressure" based braking. The overwhelming consensus is that few would return to pot based braking. Is this thread becoming one of the type of "pot is better than pressure" types which have played many times? I hope not.

As an ancillary matter, we should indicate any intentions folks have towards component production as they offer their opinions about what is better, what method works the best, etc. Certainly I have intentions to offer both a hydraulic pedal system and a load cell based type.

I consider those methods are better for a number of objective reasons and, of course, since I plan to market them, I am biased towards them. However, I'd not think it's in good spirits to conceal those facts from folks when making claims about which is "better".

I've not covered this entire thread. Does the OP have a pressure based system of some type? Has he used one? Help enlighten me. If not, I may have found an open minded man for some testing.

d

 

[mrbasher]

Derek,

It doesn't seem as though anyone is denying the merits of a pressure based system. As well, it does not seem they feel as though a pot based system is better.

The issue at hand is that a load cell or pressure sensor is not the only way to accomplish the intended purpose. The purpose is a brake that offers sufficient "feel" in order to brake without worrying about the actual position of the pedal. The pedal position is really just a byproduct of the system design.

I consider those methods are better for a number of objective reasons and, of course, since I plan to market them, I am biased towards them. However, I'd not think it's in good spirits to conceal those facts from folks when making claims about which is "better".

What are people concealing? We've covered quite a bit of information here.

 

[derekspeare]

Derek,

It doesn't seem as though anyone is denying the merits of a pressure based system. As well, it does not seem they feel as though a pot based system is better.

The issue at hand is that a load cell or pressure sensor is not the only way to accomplish the intended purpose. The purpose is a brake that offers sufficient "feel" in order to brake without worrying about the actual position of the pedal. The pedal position is really just a byproduct of the system design.



What are people concealing? We've covered quite a bit of information here.

Bad choice of words on my part, Jon - how about "Full Disclosure to mitigate and taint of bias"?

 

[Ripster]

I have never used the ECCI pedals or their wheel. Their "value" would be in the eyes of the purchaser really. However, with regard to their pedals, there is a lot more to their pedals that makes them so expensive. Further information would be best obtained from them. However, they have been doing this for a long time and provide excellent products based upon reviews I have read. I have no doubt they know what they are doing.

I'm also not suggesting someone purchase a set of their pedals instead of a set of ClubSports or something.

I can make you one guaranty... The pots in your CSR Elite pedals (clutch and accelerator) are of significantly less quality than those used in the ECCI pedals or even Logitech pedals.

I see what is happening here and I can assure you it's unnecessary to take a defensive position with regard to Fanatec products. There being an alternative to a load cell should in no way detract from the value of the pedals you have.

Trust me I am not defensive about Fanatec, I am not connected to the company. I have a limited amount of experience with wheels and pedals, but I have used the Logitech's, I have owned one, as well as the MS wheel, and now the CSR and GT3Rs v2. But since we are talking pedals I currently own both the CSR stock and elite pedals.

Though the CSR stock pedals are what they are I would not recommend them. They serve the purpose for a low cost budget pedal but there is no comparison between the two. The only reason I have them is I bought the wheel, shifters and pedals as a set for my second pod.

I am just stating what I think I know... so there is reason to imply I have a personal agenda. So if I am wrong then I guess I am wrong.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Derek,

It doesn't seem as though anyone is denying the merits of a pressure based system. As well, it does not seem they feel as though a pot based system is better.

It does not seem that the advantages of the pressure based system are denied anymore, but the beginning of this thread was very misleading, Glad that we came back to our senses.
IF, and it seems like a big IF at this point, the same can be attained with a pot, the real advantage is still very nebulous since we already have good working pressure base solutions.

 

[mrbasher]

I see what you mean Derek.

Sorry, I actually don't know if I personally intend on marketing or producing a brake pedal. I thought I had said this but wasn't really clear I suppose.

I started by making a load cell pedal and it worked well, though the design required too much effort to produce and there was of course the expense when using a true load cell instead of something from a bathroom scale.

The next step was to use a different type of pressure sensor. It worked well, but I didn't like the repeatability of it.(repeatability is apparently not a word... lol)

Then I started thinking about other ways I could accomplish the same thing while simplifying the design and minimize cost to the buyer. I came to the same conclusion that the OP did.

In summary, my intent is not to get people to purchase my product should I ever produce one. It is simply to lend my opinion on the principles involved. That said, I'm not going to release info about what I am doing or if I will ever actually sell it without knowing IF that will actually happen. I would jeopardize my values by tell the public I am making something I am not.

 

[mrbasher]

I am just stating what I think I know... so there is reason to imply I have a personal agenda. So if I am wrong then I guess I am wrong.

I don't mean it to seem as though I was implying that... I meant that you should keep an open mind on the subject, despite owning a set of Fanatec load cell pedals.

 

[derekspeare]

I'll say - and I have said many times - The Clubsport V1 pedals are engineering genius, pure and simple. I have a set on one of my test rigs, use them and enjoy them. They even inspired the design of my hydraulic system. How Thomas does it is not easy. Without falling off into the ditch on some of the isolated reliability issues, they are the very best bang for your money in sim racing. I'd rank them as the number one component the serious sim racer should acquire.

Can the same performance advantages be found with a pot system? Some have made the claim they have. Squishy balls (in the pedal), urethane springs, heavy duty springs, etc. all have been used. However, as Cote Dazur has stated, success is "nebulous" at best.

In my opinion, there exists something better than all of what we see now. Indeed there is more on this whole pressure brake/pressure clutch stuff. I am up in the middle of the night thinking on it Unfortunately, developers lack the access to certain things as of today to take advantage of technology as it should be used.

Who'd not want a pedal system which feels exactly as what's found is a race car? Who'd not want one which not only feels like what's in a real race car but feels like the one in the actual virtual car you happen to be racing at that moment? One day, I hope to see it realized (and am endeavoring to bring it about ).

d

NP - on the issue of clutches: Every clutch feels different. Hydraulic clutches for the most part are pretty soft. Drive an M3 and then jump into a 71 Corvette with a mechanical racing clutch - actually, do it the other way and then press the clutch in the M3 - you'll feel like your foot will go through the floor!

 

[mrbasher]

Simply because something has been done and works great, doesn't mean it can't be done better, cheaper, etc.

This is how advancements in the sim community and technology in general happen...

My argument, contention is that there may be another way, based upon the mechanics involved. Should we deny that possibility, we potentially deny advancement. That's just no the way I operate.

There are already a lot of different load cell based systems out there... Why build another? Because we can, we should, and that is what this hobby is all about!

Here's to ingenuity!

 

[Ripster]

I don't mean it to seem as though I was implying that... I meant that you should keep an open mind on the subject, despite owning a set of Fanatec load cell pedals.

I think I was pretty open minded and believed I basically agreed to what you said way back on the first page. I guess it is all in the delivery.

(repeatability is apparently not a word... lol)

Unless I misspelled it Merriam-Webster might think it is. But then spelling was never my strong suit.

 

[pilmat]

I've not covered this entire thread. Does the OP have a pressure based system of some type? Has he used one? Help enlighten me. If not, I may have found an open minded man for some testing.

Hi Derek, I started this thread Not to bash pressure or force sensing systems, but to offer the thought that most (if not all) current systems are "position" based. The way they read that is quite different: load cells, pressure transducers, pots, etc. The end result is that the computer is fed a digital signal based on a "position", or more specifically a linear scale from 1-X (where x is 256/1024 or with your 12 bit board, 4096). ECCI use a cam spring system with pots, Fanatec a load cell, Emery a pressure transducer, but all feed the computer the same info.

I have used pot systems (stock and modded) and the Fanatec pedals. I was trying to convince myself to buy a Perfect Pedal, but after trying a buch of different configs and adjustments of them, I can't see how it could be that vastly different.

I'm a race car engineer and ex-racer, so I struggle to see why a hydraulic system displacing a spring itself can make that big of a difference. But having not yet tested one, I am open to the idea that it could be better.

 

[mrbasher]

Unless I misspelled it Merriam-Webster might think it is. But then spelling was never my strong suit.

I didn't even realize you had written the word. I tried to write it, and as usually happens when I write it, my browser underlines it as misspelled. Shifter is not a word either apparently I write that one a lot as well.

 

[derekspeare]

Hi Derek, I started this thread Not to bash pressure or force sensing systems, but to offer the thought that most (if not all) current systems are "position" based. The way they read that is quite different: load cells, pressure transducers, pots, etc. The end result is that the computer is fed a digital signal based on a "position", or more specifically a linear scale from 1-X (where x is 256/1024 or with your 12 bit board, 4096). ECCI use a cam spring system with pots, Fanatec a load cell, Emery a pressure transducer, but all feed the computer the same info.

I have used pot systems (stock and modded) and the Fanatec pedals. I was trying to convince myself to buy a Perfect Pedal, but after trying a buch of different configs and adjustments of them, I can't see how it could be that vastly different.

I'm a race car engineer and ex-racer, so I struggle to see why a hydraulic system itself can make that big of a difference. But having not yet tested one, I am open to the idea that it could be better.

The fluid moving through the system is what makes the difference in pedal feel. No other method offers that. All that translates into approaching what the brain considers to be more real. More "real" is more accurate to each user. Don't remove the human element from the equation.

 

[Ripster]

Just to add... I have used a half squash ball in my MS pedals and they make a world of difference only because it simulates the first part of the pedal movement when you first address the braking surface. And the force needed to apply additional braking helps too, but that is due to the physics of ball itself. As you apply more pressure it is being applied over a larger surface area of the ball. It is a very good stop gap but not a replacement.

 

[kikie]

Joining the discussing but compared to the other posters, writing in bad English.

A few years ago, I had contact with ECCI about purchasing there pots. We also talk (through several email) about load cells and hydraulic brakes. ECCI said the same thing what pilmat and MrBadher said. ECCI said that a load brake or hydraulic brake system is not better than a pot based brake. It is all about modulation (I believe that is the word he used). If you can achieve the same modulation and feeling with a pot based brake compared to a load cell/hydraulic brake, why go for a more expensive and more complicated load cell/hydraulic brake? I just found a youtube clip from ECCI where they introduce there new V1-GP pedal box. No load cell/hydraulics. Look how the brake behaves. It seems to behave, when pushed, like a real brake.



We also talked about resolution and bits but that's another story.



Another video I found on youtube (yesterday). The brake pedal seems to operate a lot like a hydraulic brake.



In this case, the more he pushes the brake pedal, the more force he has to apply. So, muscle memory using force also applies in this case.
Does anyone recognize that white thing he's using in his brake pedal?



I stopped simracing in 2011 and bought the SRW S1 in februari 2012 (just to enjoy myself once in a while).

Yesterday I put a piece of foam behind the brake paddle (yep paddle because the brake and throttle are located at the back of the wheel), calibrated the brake in the SRW S1 test application I got from steelseries and I achieved what I wanted. With the standard brake, I couldn't drive without locking up de brakes in Netkar pro. Well, this little piece of foam changed all that. Not only does the brake "feel" much stiffer, I don't lock up the brakes that often anymore (in Netkar Pro).

In the end, the results ingame and the feeling of the brake pedal is what counts. And I think that it can be achieved with a descent developed pot based brake pedal.

 

[mrbasher]

The white things look to be conical skate board bushings. VERY soft ones at that.

 

[kikie]

So your suggestion (in your PM) of using skate board bushings seems to be a good thing. Using a combination of soft and harder skate board bushings with a progressive spring, should that do the trick?

I'm still doubting. A hydraulic system looks soooo good. lol

Found the thread again: http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=2224.0

 

[mrbasher]

Not entirely. careful with springs as they are too responsive generally. Edit: I'm referring to the rebound.

My suggestion was to use the bushings on the hydraulic slave cylinder, not necessarily on their own