Sim Brake Thoughts

[Cote Dazur]

ECCI said that a load brake or hydraulic brake system is not better than a pot based brake. It is all about modulation (I believe that is the word he used). If you can achieve the same modulation and feeling with a pot based brake compared to a load cell/hydraulic brake, why go for a more expensive and more complicated load cell/hydraulic brake? .

Interesting comment coming from ECCI, I must have missed something.
what is that solution from ECCI that is less expensive and less complicated than load cell brake?

 

[pilmat]

Interesting comment coming from ECCI, I must have missed something.
what is that solution from ECCI that is less expensive and less complicated than load cell brake?

Cam operated springs

PMB-II NEXT GENERATION PRESSURE MAPPED BRAKE PEDAL

Another ECCI exclusive innovation. As an integrated solution for our 6000 pedals, the PMB-II is an entirely new design from our previous PMB modules. The PMB-II offers not only the very highly progressive feel of the brake in a "real world" auto, it also provides highly progressive braking response that exactly matches the feel. Two key adjustments are available: maximum braking force level and initial preload. The PMB-II is standard on the 6000 GTS, and is an available option for other 6000 series systems.

 

[kikie]

Problem

1) Hydraulic system is expensive (if you want descent parts).
2) ECCI pedals with clutch and pressure mapped brake pedal are almost $500
3) standard pedals aren't satisfying.
4) Skate board bushes are apparently not the solution either.

What is left to create a progressive brake pedal which feels like brake of a real car?


Solution

Don't game! Don't buy a wheel and pedals and look for another hobby!

 

[pilmat]

Solution

Don't game! Don't buy a wheel and pedals and look for another hobby!

Oh no, my ex has a GTPlamet account !

 

[Cote Dazur]

Cam operated springs

So ECCI offers an inexpensive cam operating pedal set? What model is it?

 

[pilmat]

So ECCI offers an inexpensive cam operating pedal set? What model is it?

It's the 6000 series. The PMB stage 2 or 3 is the one with the trick cam.

 

[derekspeare]

Here's a hydraulic conversion made by one of my customers in Texas:

Quite a nice effort, and it's slick.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Regarding load cells, I don't think the "consumable" aspect of the ones currently utilized by a certain manufacturer would be an issue...

...if; each one did not cost $15, + $18 shipping fee incurred whether just one or quantities are purchased. Although the load cell does seem to be covered by the manufacturer's warranty.

Fortunately, I had the foresight to purchase extras when I ordered other items which mitigated the $18 shipping fee for just one standalone Load Cell order.

If you are out of warranty and have no need to order other items, one standalone load cell order in USA will effectively cost $33 with shipping.

Has anyone tried to source these in quantity? If they are indeed bathroom scales, they should be available, unless the connector and length of wiring is an issue.

I recall having read somewhere that the CSP V.2 and CSR E load cell wire lengths are different.

 

[derekspeare]

Regarding load cells, I don't think the "consumable" aspect of the ones currently utilized by a certain manufacturer would be an issue...

...if; each one did not cost $15, + $18 shipping fee incurred whether just one or quantities are purchased. Although the load cell does seem to be covered by the manufacturer's warranty.

Fortunately, I had the foresight to purchase extras when I ordered other items which mitigated the $18 shipping fee for just on standalone Load Cell order.

If you are out of warranty and have no need to order other items, one standalone load cell order in USA will effectively cost $33 with shipping.

Has anyone tried to source these in quantity? If they are indeed bathroom scales, they should be available, unless the connector and length of wiring is an issue. I recall having read somewhere that the CSP V.2 and CSR E load cell wire lengths are different.

​

I've scoured the globe - there are none like it. They should offer them in 5 packs! When mine went out, I bought three.

 

[mrbasher]

These are the load cells used in all of the Fanatec pedals:

http://www.manyyear.com/productinfo.asp?id=241&did=34

At quantity 1000, they are $1 each. I have thought about sourcing them and decided against it.

 

[JogoAsobi]

These are the load cells used in all of the Fanatec pedals:

http://www.manyyear.com/productinfo.asp?id=241&did=34

At quantity 1000, they are $1 each. I have thought about sourcing them and decided against it.

Wow, I can only assume they are purchased in quantity by the entity that uses them in their pedals.

No need to even speculate about ROI here.

 

[mrbasher]

So ECCI offers an inexpensive cam operating pedal set? What model is it?

We are all aware of what you are trying to say. I don't understand why you don't just make the point instead of trying to lead folks into it. No, ECCI doesn't offer an "inexpensive" pedal set. Nobody current offers an inexpensive alternative to a "pressure based" system.

The only pedal set on the market that has a load cell that I would consider inexpensive is the CSR Elite pedal set.

I will take the blame for mentioning cost as a driving factor in looking at other options. It is a driving factor. I have personally invested many hours into looking at pedal designs as well as researching and developing my own in an effort to find something that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars, provides the feel that everyone wants, resolution and precision everyone needs and in a package that doesn't break or require tweaking and upkeep beyond tuning to suit the user.

No offense meant by this, but would you rather people like myself and Derek just left well enough alone? It's not well enough, I assure you of that. So which is it? Should those of us that pursue the betterment of sim racing for our fellow racers and ourselves simply take what we are given and be happy with it?

I personally would not bother with the subject if I did not think it had some merit. I have personally tested it.

Edit: As well, I plan to take the pedal sets that I current have, including the ones I have made and run them through a series of tests. These tests will measure the force required throughout the range of the pedal and resulting output of the pedal. This won't be done by eyeballing and fell. It will be done using the proper equipment to measure the forces and the output such that they can be compared.

 

[derekspeare]

These are the load cells used in all of the Fanatec pedals:

http://www.manyyear.com/productinfo.asp?id=241&did=34

At quantity 1000, they are $1 each. I have thought about sourcing them and decided against it.

The ones Fanatec uses have three wires. These in the link above are 4. They'd connect to my loadcell boards

 

[mrbasher]

Wow, I can only assume they are purchased in quantity by the entity that uses them in their pedals.

No need to even speculate about ROI here.

Agreed. Though of course there is a cost associated with adding the connector on the end and shrink tube around the wires.

I have measured the load cell and all dimensions are identical. If anyone wants to purchase 1000 or more, you can do so through alibaba.com

 

[mrbasher]

Based upon the photo, diagrams and info on the page this is a 3 wire device and identical to the ones that come with Fanatec pedals.

However, it's somewhat useless info unless someone wants to purchase 1000 of them. I just wanted people to know they are available. sorry, kind of muddied up the subject.

 

[ravey1981]

mrbasher (and Derek)... I for one am very thankful for the effort you put into researching and building products that enhance our hobby. I understand that as inventors/product engineers and sim enthusiast yourselves your desire is to make things which are of a decent quality and at a price that makes them a worthwhile endeavour to both yourselves and the consumer. So please when some people knock you're ideas, take no notice and carry on the good work.

Have a great 2013

 

[JogoAsobi]

mrbasher (and Derek)... I for one am very thankful for the effort you put into researching and building products that enhance our hobby. I understand that as inventors/product engineers and sim enthusiast yourselves your desire is to make things which are of a decent quality and at a price that makes them a worthwhile endeavour to both yourselves and the consumer. So please when some people knock you're ideas, take no notice and carry on the good work.

Have a great 2013

Roger that, not to mention the stellar CS that is example-setting!

You guys really do interact with your customer base and the community.

 

[mrbasher]

mrbasher (and Derek)... I for one am very thankful for the effort you put into researching and building products that enhance our hobby. I understand that as inventors/product engineers and sim enthusiast yourselves your desire is to make things which are of a decent quality and at a price that makes them a worthwhile endeavour to both yourselves and the consumer. So please when some people knock you're ideas, take no notice and carry on the good work.

Have a great 2013

It's all part of the process.


Thank you for the support, you too JogoAsobi. I don't plan on stopping my efforts on any front, any time soon.

 

[Cote Dazur]

It's the 6000 series. The PMB stage 2 or 3 is the one with the trick cam.

Then it is not inexpensive.

@ mrbasher, I am not trying to say anything, I was trying to understand what was the less expensive and less complicated solution that ECCi was referring to in kikie post, unlike you I am not as involved in this subject and wanted to get to the bottom of it.
It would be helpfull if the posters would refrain from empty or irrelevant statement.
It is deeply appreciated that SIM enthousiast like you are trying to improve our hobby and make it a better experience. I hope some one comes up with a better solution to braking, or any other aspect of the SIM experience.

I have had expereince with one of your product and can repport to be totally happy with it.

It needs to be kept in mind that many people reading this topic have limited knowledge and/or experience on this subject, so staying close to fact and not disgressing toward pure theory, like a less expensive and more simple alternative to Load cell braking, that does not exist yet, will help the whole community including those like you who are trying to help advance it.
With all due respect.

 

[mrbasher]

Cote Dazur,

I agree and I wish that I had actual data to offer at this point, beyond my experiences during research, etc. We do have the knowledge of how the current products work and I feel we have outlined those well. However, this subject requires an objective look. Although it may seem as though I am biased... I am not. I'd like to get to the bottom of this as much as the next guy.

 

[pilmat]

OK, first part of a DIY hydra-brake project started. DSD 12 Bit Controller w/integrated load cell amp: ORDERED.

My boss is going to wonder why we are ordering a Tilton floor mount pedal set in a NASCAR shop

 

[derekspeare]

OK, first part of a DIY hydra-brake project started. DSD 12 Bit Controller w/integrated load cell amp: ORDERED.

My boss is going to wonder why we are ordering a Tilton floor mount pedal set in a NASCAR shop

"All that stuff is so we win, boss!" Thank you for your order.



d

 

[pilmat]

Cool! I just see that I actually have one of these in stock 💡

CNC Brakes 340SBU

And I have a "donor" G27 pedal set that someone hacked the heel rest off of I'll cut the CNC pedal down to G27 length (actually, I'll extend the clutch and gas a bit too while I'm at it...).

Now all I need to find is a pressure transducer! I like Derek's idea of a millivolt unit. Anybody have any leads?

 

[derekspeare]

Cool! I just see that I actually have one of these in stock 💡

CNC Brakes 340SBU

And I have a "donor" G27 pedal set that someone hacked the heel rest off of I'll cut the CNC pedal down to G27 length (actually, I'll extend the clutch and gas a bit too while I'm at it...).

Now all I need to find is a pressure transducer! I like Derek's idea of a millivolt unit. Anybody have any leads?

That's the Measurement Specialties transducer:

Mfg. p/n M3421-000006-01KPG

Digikey is the only place who has them. Their p/n is MSP6895-ND

That pedal is like a Willwood. Summit has them for around 65 bucks.

 

[pilmat]

Thanks for the part number, it's ordered

As for the pedal, it comes with the master (3/4" bore) and slave cylinders (7/8" bore) and I have it in stock! I'll start onto the fitting to a G27 pedal base in the morning! There's even a skate shop close to work to fetch elastomers from (unless you have other good sources ).

 

[derekspeare]

Thanks for the part number, it's ordered

As for the pedal, it comes with the master (3/4" bore) and slave cylinders (7/8" bore) and I have it in stock! I'll start onto the fitting to a G27 pedal base in the morning! There's even a skate shop close to work to fetch elastomers from (unless you have other good sources ).

I can't put all my secrets out there

 

[Fanatec...]

My point is that all 3 systems are virtually the same*.

You are right that all these systems require some travel of the pedal.

The difference is how much travel do you need and how much precision do you have with less travel.

We can design a load cell brake without any foam and with a super solid load cell so the brake pedal movement would be less than 1 mm. You will hardly notice any movement.
But in theory you could still argue that it works just like a pot based brake.

You missed the most important aspect of why load cell brakes are so much better than pot brakes: It is about muscle tension.

The human body memorizes muscle tension much better than foot position. The less travel the brake has and the more you need to use muscle tension, the better it will work.

Race brakes are extremely stiff but race cars have a big advantage. The g-forces will push the driver with up to 5G to the pedal and therefore help him to press the pedals. Of course this is not possible in a simulation. Therefore it is good to have some travel so that you get a compromise and your muscles don't get tired.

The difference between hydraulic sets and load cell brakes or a combination of load cell with hydraulic damper (CSP V2) is actually not big. It is more about feeling and realism and will bring no advantage in precision.

 

[mrbasher]

Fanatec, whichever person you are there, you are correct about muscle memory and yet you have missed the point, still.

If you have two brakes, both requiring the same amount of force and traveling the same distance, one wth a pressure sensor and one with a device to measure the distance traveled, they will both exhibit the same behavior. Both will provide muscle memory braking if of a appropriate stiffness to provide delineations your foot can feel.

Differences outside this are related to the materials used and design of the system. There are not related or specific to a load cell or pressure sensor system.

 

[Mahnegold]

You missed the most important aspect of why load cell brakes are so much better than pot brakes: It is about muscle tension.

The human body memorizes muscle tension much better than foot position. The less travel the brake has and the more you need to use muscle tension, the better it will work.

But one point of this thread was, that in theory you can achieve the same effect with a pot-based construction. And it sounds logical to me.

However most spring-pot-constructions work linear and muscle-memory does not work here. But if you change the construction, you can have the same effect as with a load-cell. That's what this discussion was about.

 

[mrbasher]

Funny thing about load cells...

If they are connected correctly, they should be very linear in their output vs input. If they were not, they would be quite useless for their original intent which is to measure a force exerted on them. If they were not linear, they would require something to translate the output of the load cell such that it was linear. When using a load cell in an application that needs both precision and accuracy, such as a scale, the load cell is first calibrated with a known level of force. This is then used to determine the level of any other forces applied to the load cell. In doing so, typically a linear equation is used.

I'm getting a bit beyond the scope of the topic and I apologize for that. My point is that a load cell is just as linear as a spring. This is unless it's output is adjusted, as is the case with the Fanatec pedals. (I stated this previously)