SimBin Studios to Hold First Women-Only Esports Competition

[oneloops]

That's irrelevant outside the effects that cause animals to form symbiotic social groups. Are you suggesting that there's a disinterest in cars which is innate in female humans and which is therefore genetic?



Patronising tosh, but go on...



I know lots of women who do know the mechanics of their car far better than me and plenty of men who know it's a particular model and not much more. Neither of our samples is very meaningful.



I've educated around 5 times that between the ages of 4 and 16, I needed the luck (so thank you in retrospect) and I saw nothing - nothing - to suggest genetically innate preferences outside social interference.



Utterly incorrect although limitations that exist do not do so along gender lines.





Which are?



Most people do both, particularly at important developmental stages in the organism. How does that support your argument?



You lost me there.



Too often it seems that "banter" is just an coverword for rude, alienating conduct that the speaker doesn't see a need to apologise for. Cus bants.

My text is very clear if you are lost or you don't understand it, I have no advice to give you.

Social interference is inevitable, we are social beings, but is not the only reason for everything. Most of times the choice to practice or work in something is a free individual choice, more in modern countries, even more with free information and free inspiration coming from internet, sharing inspiring stories and examples from facebook or twitter (out of conventional medias and out of conventional education), etc.

If in Europe in 2017 only 6% of women play with racing games is because their free choice, and their free choice follows their instincts and attractions. Genetic programmation, brain differences and testosterone levels make men been attracted to risked activities and to battle each other, racing or even fighting. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

This is not an absolute sentence, it's only a relative and stadistic affirmation that we can deduce from the Simbin statistic and many others. Of course, women can be attracted to male-stadisticly-predominant activities and of course they can be better than men if they apply the same time and passion to it.

Women are more naturally attracted (but not only) to social-family-friendly games instead of war, combat, racing, technical or high competitive games. It's been passed 50 years from some of most important equality battles (it's not a new matter at all), now, every woman is free to do everything she wants, even more in anonymous offline or online play.

You can agree or not agree, your experience can be the opposite of mine, good for you, I've lived in 9 cities over 4 countries in Europe, and that's my experience and my opinion.

The stadistics from this post are a fact and, at least in Europe, no law forbids women to play racing games. In my case my parents forbiden me to play videogames till 18 yo, so I did what I wanted from 18 to now as any woman can do.

 

[Dhalism]

That's irrelevant outside the effects that cause animals to form symbiotic social groups. Are you suggesting that there's a disinterest in cars which is innate in female humans and which is therefore genetic?



Patronising tosh, but go on...



I know lots of women who do know the mechanics of their car far better than me and plenty of men who know it's a particular model and not much more. Neither of our samples is very meaningful.



I've educated around 5 times that between the ages of 4 and 16, I needed the luck (so thank you in retrospect) and I saw nothing - nothing - to suggest genetically innate preferences outside social interference.



Utterly incorrect although limitations that exist do not do so along gender lines.





Which are?



Most people do both, particularly at important developmental stages in the organism. How does that support your argument?



You lost me there.



Too often it seems that "banter" is just an coverword for rude, alienating conduct that the speaker doesn't see a need to apologise for. Cus bants.

duuude><

 

[mary ann]

Oh boy, or should I say, Oh girl!

First, all the messages I got from Gtplanet members are great. Thanks to all!

Don't forget one thing, people are evolving. Decades ago, olympics records have now been all destroyed by our generation. New training, exercise to get the maximum of our bodies, food quality and so on, you get the point.

Many girls, woman, work as fireman, construction, sport trainers... If you look around you, you'll see us running every morning, preparation for the next marathon. It all started in the 80's, aerobic, woman were starting to get in shape, Some of them were able to do ''men'' jobs. Now more girls are doing exercises and they love to be in good shape. To become stronger, faster you have to do some training and we are starting to do it.

Watch out guys, we are just behind you... for now!

 

[Schmiggz]

Ok, To a very small and delicate, very short and not sexy at all enormous woman that was the very first taking a spot in my top 5 of idols in motorsport when a was a kid.

And, in the 80's, when there was barely any females on motorsport, never mind on the very top of the World Rally Championship that she took home in 1982.
Those Audi were such beasts on 444bhp in the very early days of 4WD and Mouton was so smooth, so fast, so cold blooded.

Simply brilliant Michelle Mouton.

 

[BLADErunner80]

Initially the idea of a separate racing competition for women seemed like an unnecessary backwards step to me, obviously women can be just as fast as men so why segregate. But after reading comments in this thread i can see how this could be beneficial to some female racers.
A long term solution it is not, but promoting sim racing and online competition to more people, especially female motorsport fans is clearly a good step, and if some women are put off racing online because of abuse, harassment or just being made to feel like an outsider in a guy's club, then i can get behind this idea.
Sim racing is already such a niche genre in gaming, so anything to boost our numbers is welcome, as long as it doesn't preclude any women from racing wheel to wheel with me tho!

 

[oneloops]

Initially the idea of a separate racing competition for women seemed like an unnecessary backwards step to me, obviously women can be just as fast as men so why segregate. But after reading comments in this thread i can see how this could be beneficial to some female racers.
A long term solution it is not, but promoting sim racing and online competition to more people, especially female motorsport fans is clearly a good step, and if some women are put off racing online because of abuse, harassment or just being made to feel like an outsider in a guy's club, then i can get behind this idea.
Sim racing is already such a niche genre in gaming, so anything to boost our numbers is welcome, as long as it doesn't preclude any women from racing wheel to wheel with me tho!

Maybe a system to ban harassment by point levels could be a good solution. IMO segregation is one of the worst solutions and it's a regression.

As in twitter, facebook, any other social net or online play we have to go towards education and respect not towards segregation Segregation make barriers and less empathy among people. With segregation we will never solve (nor improve about) the harassment problem.

Next could be : Segregation in youtube ? Segregation in facebook ? Segregation in TV ? Segregation in work ? Segregation in streets ?

 

[Hollow]

From around 40 or 50 or 100 women I've talked about this matter NONE of them were sure of how many cylinders their daily car has of if their car has electronic inyection or not or what their tyres good pressure is...

I don't think you tried asking men around you the same question as much because you assume they know how many cylinders their car has. You'd be surprised how many men don't know the basics of what they actually drive or how a car works. Technical knowledge isn't based on gender, it's based on an individual's personality type and interest in the matter.

 

[oneloops]

I don't think you tried asking men around you the same question as much because you assume they know how many cylinders their car has. You'd be surprised how many men don't know the basics of what they actually drive or how a car works. Technical knowledge isn't based on gender, it's based on an individual's personality type and interest in the matter.

Yes, I agree. Many men don't know lot of "basic" aspects of their cars.

 

[Famine]

I don't think you tried asking men around you the same question as much because you assume they know how many cylinders their car has. You'd be surprised how many men don't know the basics of what they actually drive or how a car works. Technical knowledge isn't based on gender, it's based on an individual's personality type and interest in the matter.

Absolutely. Most people don't care about that sort of thing, and even most car "guys" are clueless - like the guy who, at a car show, told me how a mate of his (always a mate) had imported a car just like mine from Japan and then done a dubious number of mods to it. Except my car, despite the Japanese badge on it, was never sold in Japan.

A few years back (2010) a survey by BMW revealed that around 80% of BMW 1-Series owners had no idea even which wheels drove the car, and that's a pretty fundamental detail to how one should drive the car in some situations. 150,000 people in the UK each year put the wrong fuel (diesel/petrol) in their car, and most of the time it's someone who's just bought a new car (or new to them) and put in the same fuel they've always put in. It doesn't get more simple than that, and yet people still do it.


It's not a male/female thing, it's just that the overwhelming majority of people who drive cars don't actually care, because the car is just a tool for the job of commuting. They care about the colour, the size, how it looks and if it's a brand they like, and that's about it. They won't know about cylinders, aspiration, drivetrain or anything that us car nerds think is basic information because it's not relevant to them.

 

[Eva]

One thing that I think would be cool, is in addition to the women's only, have a men's only series, and the top half of both compete together for a grand prize or something. Reason I bring this up is because, coming from my experience racing in a whole bunch of leagues and such, I don't get a lot of motivation to try being the best woman. Usually, I'm the only one competing. I always have the mentality of "I want to be the best. Period." And as has been said before, that needs to be encouraged in the sim racing world among women. The fear of harassment isn't going to go away, but it can be equalized by the desire to win and to be as skillful as possible.

 

[oneloops]

One thing that I think would be cool, is in addition to the women's only, have a men's only series, and the top half of both compete together for a grand prize or something. Reason I bring this up is because, coming from my experience racing in a whole bunch of leagues and such, I don't get a lot of motivation to try being the best woman. Usually, I'm the only one competing. I always have the mentality of "I want to be the best. Period." And as has been said before, that needs to be encouraged in the sim racing world among women. The fear of harassment isn't going to go away, but it can be equalized by the desire to win and to be as skillful as possible.

That women vs men competition would bring more confrontation between sex and sexist people, comparing if women are better than men or viceversa instead of individual comparisons or by region or by brand-fans (as GT Sport will introduce).

A test could be done, lot of people should think that is a good solution, but I think segregation and confrontation by sex-groups doesn't resolve anything... I think that we must try rather in education and respect, banning people who harass.

As a man I agree with you that sometimes is not easy to find a motivation in online races neither among hardcore gamers, that's why a level racing competition should be fine to match people of our skills. To segregate women and men keep the skills-difference-problem intact or even more exagerated ...

 

[Joey D]

From around 40 or 50 or 100 women I've talked about this matter NONE of them were sure of how many cylinders their daily car has of if their car has electronic inyection or not or what their tyres good pressure is... Ask your near women for it, ask them for more technical aspects (even in informatic areas) and do the same with men.

Not sure why this matters when it comes to video games. Your automotive knowledge could end with "ya it has four tires and an engine" and still be good at a racing game.

Now, you can deny my source, you can deny genetic programming in animals... or you can prove your good intentioned argument, or ask men and women, make your own tests and educate 1000 girls and boys from 0 years to prove the opposite, I wish you good luck

I can deny your source. First, your personal experience doesn't equate to truth, it's anecdotal. Second, gender roles aren't genetically programmed, they're cultural.

====

As for a women's only series, I think it's probably more about trying to get more females interested in sim racing than dividing them from men. Pretty much all sports/activities have a male and female division, no reason eSports shouldn;t.

 

[oneloops]

Not sure why this matters when it comes to video games. Your automotive knowledge could end with "ya it has four tires and an engine" and still be good at a racing game.

In racing-simulators if you don't know a few things about car physics and car balance your will be quite limitated to adapt your driving to each car.

I can deny your source. First, your personal experience doesn't equate to truth, it's anecdotal. Second, gender roles aren't genetically programmed, they're cultural.

First, my personal experienced opinion is quite shared by lot of people, the stadistics from Simbin is a demonstration of what people FREELY choose. No law forbids women to choose other games ... (They are not victims of other's choices)

Second, gender roles are genetically programmed in part (lions, elephants, monkeys, praying mantis, birds and many others have programmed roles different by sex) In other part, they are cultural too, but gaming choice or reading choice I don't think is that much a cultural role gender choice, it's an individual choice.

As for a women's only series, I think it's probably more about trying to get more females interested in sim racing than dividing them from men. Pretty much all sports/activities have a male and female division, no reason eSports shouldn;t.

There is no physical advantage for men or women in eSports, so no reason to division and segregate.

 

[Northstar]

In racing-simulators if you don't know a few things about car physics and car balance your will be quite limitated to adapt your driving to each car.

That's not really the same thing as knowing about the cars mechanical aspects though.

Not that I'm a good example as I'm not exactly fast, but I'm pretty indifferent on cars in general but love racing and racing games. They really aren't exclusive to one another and you can like one but not the other. For instance my uncle and cousin are certified car nuts, yet neither really cares about racing.

 

[Joey D]

In racing-simulators if you don't know a few things about car physics and car balance your will be quite limitated to adapt your driving to each car.

Knowing the physics behind how a car works and the technical aspect of a car are two different things. Weight transfer and friction are completely different than what engine your car has or if it has electronic fuel injection or not.

You can still learn the game though. I don't know anything about being a medieval knight, but that doesn't stop me from being good at fantasy RPG's.

First, my personal experienced opinion is quite shared by lot of people, the stadistics from Simbin is a demonstration of what people FREELY choose. No law forbids women to choose other games ... (They are not victims of other's choices)

It still doesn't matter how many people share your opinion, it doesn't mean it's factual. All one has to do is look at how many common misconceptions there are in the world to see that.

And SimBin is "sadistic"? That's a bit of a stretch since there's nothing inherently cruel or sexually gratifying about an eSport league for women.

Second, gender roles are genetically programmed in part (lions, elephants, monkeys, praying mantis, birds and many others have programmed roles different by sex) In other part, they are cultural too, but gaming choice or reading choice I don't think is that much a cultural role gender choice, it's an individual choice.

Gender roles are not genetically programmed. You won't find a worthwhile anthropologist or biologist that agree with this. Also, sex roles in animals differ from gender roles in humans.

And yes, gaming choice is very much a cultural thing. In the western world, culture often dictates girls should like things like dolls, ponies, cutesy objects, pink things, etc. while boys should like guns, warfare, cars, and blue things. If you put this into gaming, a female should like games like The Sims whereas males should like games like Call of Duty.

There is no physical advantage for men or women in eSports, so no reason to division and segregate.

There isn't a physical advantage in several activities, doesn't mean there isn't a separate division.

 

[oneloops]

That's not really the same thing as knowing about the cars mechanical aspects though.

Not that I'm a good example as I'm not exactly fast, but I'm pretty indifferent on cars in general but love racing and racing games. They really aren't exclusive to one another and you can like one but not the other. For instance my uncle and cousin are certified car nuts, yet neither really cares about racing.

Knowing the physics behind how a car works and the technical aspect of a car are two different things. Weight transfer and friction are completely different than what engine your car has or if it has electronic fuel injection or not.

You can still learn the game though. I don't know anything about being a medieval knight, but that doesn't stop me from being good at fantasy RPG's.

Yes, I agree there are many opposite examples in this. But, contrary to arcade racing games, sim-racing games are quite technical to recreate real handling, it's very important to know technical aspects and why your car is loosing traction or grip in that or another corner or how to improve your lap times. Also racing trajectory theory (and many other things) is very important in order to be competitive.

It still doesn't matter how many people share your opinion, it doesn't mean it's factual. All one has to do is look at how many common misconceptions there are in the world to see that.

And SimBin is "sadistic"? That's a bit of a stretch since there's nothing inherently cruel or sexually gratifying about an eSport league for women.

Factual is the stadistic from Simbin in this post. 6% women / 84 % men in racing games, that's factual and they are FREE to choice the game they want.

Factual too : At least in Europe, no law forbids women to choose what they choose.

Gender roles are not genetically programmed. You won't find a worthwhile anthropologist or biologist that agree with this. Also, sex roles in animals differ from gender roles in humans.

And yes, gaming choice is very much a cultural thing. In the western world, culture often dictates girls should like things like dolls, ponies, cutesy objects, pink things, etc. while boys should like guns, warfare, cars, and blue things. If you put this into gaming, a female should like games like The Sims whereas males should like games like Call of Duty.

They are choosing about their genetically programmed attractions ( social games or fight games). People can also choose, if they want, other kind of games, people can be attracted by any game by many reasons, but "genetically programmed attractions" is a very important one.

As an adult you are free, you can choose the opposite of what you have been educated, as in my case, now I play videogames when in the past my parents forbid me to do that.

 

[WhoosierGirl]

In racing-simulators if you don't know a few things about car physics and car balance your will be quite limitated to adapt your driving to each car.

Back in my GT6 days I thought Caster and Camber where parts of the car, I was and for the most part still clueless as to what does what. However, I regularly finished in the Top 25 and had multiple Top 10 finishes in TT's.

I do know which tires drive my car, the round one's

 

[Joey D]

Yes, I agree there are many opposite examples in this. But, contrary to arcade racing games, sim-racing games are quite technical to recreate real handling, it's very important to know technical aspects and why your car is loosing traction or grip in that or another corner or how to improve your lap times. Also racing trajectory theory (and many other things) is very important in order to be competitive.

Still, has nothing to do with knowing whether or not your car has electronic fuel injection and any other technical working of a car.

Factual is the stadistic from Simbin in this post. 6% women / 84 % men in racing games, that's factual and they are FREE to choice the game they want. Factual too : At least in Europe, no law forbids women to choose what they choose.

I'm not sure you're using sadistic correctly. Sadistic means cruel, especially in a sexually gratifying way.

Or do you mean statistic?

They are choosing about their genetically programmed attractions ( social games or fight games). People can also choose, if they want, other kind of games, people can be attracted by any game by many reasons, but "genetically programmed attractions" is a very important one.

As an adult you are free, you can choose the opposite of what you have been educated, as in my case, now I play videogames when in the past my parents forbid me to do that.

If it's genetically programmed, they can't choose. If it's culturally programmed they can. Video games are solely a cultural construct, nowhere in evolution did we gain a trait about which video games to play.

And genetically programmed attraction typically refers to which sex you're attracted to. Unless you're planning on my made love to your game console, I'm not sure that really applies here.

 

[oneloops]

I'm not sure you're using sadistic correctly. Sadistic means cruel, especially in a sexually gratifying way.

Or do you mean statistic?

You're right "statistic" (Sorry, I got it wrong from spanish where there's a "d" instead of a "t")

Still, has nothing to do with knowing whether or not your car has electronic fuel injection and any other technical working of a car.

It was only an example of some basic technical aspects of a car.

If it's genetically programmed, they can't choose. If it's culturally programmed they can. Video games are solely a cultural construct, nowhere in evolution did we gain a trait about which video games to play.

And genetically programmed attraction typically refers to which sex you're attracted to. Unless you're planning on my made love to your game console, I'm not sure that really applies here.

Video games recreate real life aspects, like risk, social communication etc. We are naturally more attracted with our genetically programmation to one or another but not exclusively, we are creative and free.

We are not genetically programmed to fly and we fly We can choose all we want to do, we are free in our choices.

 

[Earth]

Europeans likes soccer much more then American football. More men like sim racing then women. How is this a problem?

 

[Roger the Horse]

More men like sim racing then women. How is this a problem?

It's not. What the problem is is that sim racing (as with many other communities) has an environment which is highly male dominated, and as a result many women who may otherwise become huge fans and active and respected community members are driven away because of an enironment in which they may feel uncomfortable, unsafe, and alienated.

Relevant Shaun Andjen video relating to chess, with a NSFW warning for language and Garry Kasparov being chased around by a phallic drone:



It's best to watch the whole thing, but the bit starting at 10:40 is particularly relevant.

 

[oneloops]

It's not. What the problem is is that sim racing (as with many other communities) has an environment which is highly male dominated, and as a result many women who may otherwise become huge fans and active and respected community members are driven away because of an enironment in which they may feel uncomfortable, unsafe, and alienated.

Relevant Shaun Andjen video relating to chess, with a NSFW warning for language and Garry Kasparov being chased around by a phallic drone:



It's best to watch the whole thing, but the bit starting at 10:40 is particularly relevant.

Some women could feel uncomfortable, unsafe and alienated playing chess with men or competing against men, but it's only a feel not a reality. They have to solve that themshelves (only women affected into that case ...)

I can feel uncomfortable, unsafe and alienated too when I'm competing against people with more skills than me... so what ? That's my individual problem not a gender problem.

The argument "Gender expectations" from the video is another excuse to say "women are victims", every one decide his own expectations. Feeling like a victim at online competitions it's only a feeling in their minds. We can see the world as victims of everything or engaging our own responsability. We are all free to choose how to see it individually.

Again, segregate women is not the solution, if there is a problem in some women (or men) about her (or his) own "gender expectations" is to her (or to him) to solve it.

In my opinion, some women (not all of them) are less attracted to chess and to sim racing because of biological programmed attractions to solve espace problems, technical problems, risks, violence and feeling good with adrenalin challenges. Women have others abilities and skills better than men, we are different and that's not a problem that must be equalised.

Our bodies are different, our hormones too, our brain too, so naturally, our attractions and skills too. Skills are the addition of attraction to an activity+talent+dedication. If there is less attraction and less dedication, obviously, there is less skills in that activity.