So you all think GM cars suck on the track...

[Onikaze]

Uh, as much as I love Vettes, the CTS-V racer is niiiiice (and I could be mistaken, but wasn't it also a subtle testbed for the LS7 preproduction?) but I'm a softy for racing sedans.

F1 hasn't been a racing series worth watching in years.

Le Mans on the other hand, what with Porsche running P2's again, Audi bringing out a new P1, and the Corvette, DBR9, 550LM battles we will see...THAT sounds like a good series to watch.

Oh, and give some credit to those SCCA boys.

 

[Joey D]

(and I could be mistaken, but wasn't it also a subtle testbed for the LS7 preproduction?)

You are right.

 

[niky]

GM's doing pretty good with the Optra Touring cars. Not top of the heap, but not bad for a new team. 👍

 

[Max_DC]

Well they captured 16 Racing Championships in 2005 including things such as NASCAR, AMLS, US Drift competition, Craftsmen trucks, and GT style racing.

Nascar... sorry but as far as I know the technology in Nascar is rather conservative and the variation between the cars is small. Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the idea behind the Nascar philosphy, but are there any car manufacturers in Nascar which is not from the USA ? Only international competition really shows GM's real position, which leads us directly to

ALMS : If BMW would still be part of ALMS, they would still win

US Drift Competion : I highly doupt, that GM cars could compete with drift cars from the homecountry of drifting : Japan. Well, if I think about it, dirfting is a bad example, since it's not really about track performance. A skilled driver and some pro mechanics from Japan ( at least at the moment, since drifting has the longest tradition in Japan, while the US is just at the beginning ) and every car could win
the Drift Competion.

I don't know the last two racing leagues, but as soon as I hear truck, I know that we are not talking about real racing

So, what is my point : I don't want to say that GM is good or bad, I just think, that GM would have less titles if other - foreign - car sompanies would join these leagues with the same amount of effort.

Just my opinion, my post sounds a bit Anti American-cars, which is not my intention.
Racing / Track performance just doesn't seem to be an attribute for most American production cars, maybe there is a different focus, which is fine. Actually, why building fast turning cars, when most streets are straight ?....

 

[Joey D]

Nascar... sorry but as far as I know the technology in Nascar is rather conservative and the variation between the cars is small. Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the idea behind the Nascar philosphy, but are there any car manufacturers in Nascar which is not from the USA ? Only international competition really shows GM's real position, which leads us directly to

No other countries really make cars that can compete in NASCAR, but US cars don't compete in JGTC, same type of thing. But in NASCAR Craftsmen truck series Toyota competes and they are decent, but GM does it better.

ALMS : If BMW would still be part of ALMS, they would still win

Well if the world ran on hopes and dreams it would be a better place. The BMW doesn't race, therefore I really don't give a damn. But I'm still wagering the Vette would beat it.

US Drift Competion : I highly doupt, that GM cars could compete with drift cars from the homecountry of drifting : Japan. Well, if I think about it, dirfting is a bad example, since it's not really about track performance. A skilled driver and some pro mechanics from Japan ( at least at the moment, since drifting has the longest tradition in Japan, while the US is just at the beginning ) and every car could win
the Drift Competion.

US vs. Japan drift competition the US beat Japan. So I'm thinking the Americans just do it better.

I don't know the last two racing leagues, but as soon as I hear truck, I know that we are not talking about real racing

Stupid comment, trucks can race just as well as cars. I kinda resent that since I in fact race my truck in autocross events. It's decent if you know how to build them.

So, what is my point : I don't want to say that GM is good or bad, I just think, that GM would have less titles if other - foreign - car sompanies would join these leagues with the same amount of effort.

GM can't win on its own merits? It has to have crappy companies its up against? Wow you do sound very anti-american biased.

 

[Max_DC]

No other countries really make cars that can compete in NASCAR, but US cars don't compete in JGTC, same type of thing. But in NASCAR Craftsmen truck series Toyota competes and they are decent, but GM does it better.

Ok, I don't have enough knowledge about the Nascar scene to go into detail, I don't even know the Craftsman truck series to be honest

Well if the world ran on hopes and dreams it would be a better place. The BMW doesn't race, therefore I really don't give a damn. But I'm still wagering the Vette would beat it.

Good point ; @ Vette vs M3 GT-R. Did they race against each other as long as BMW still was part of ALMS ? If yes, who did win ?
Imo BMW would take the lead, but as you said : Pure speculation.

US vs. Japan drift competition the US beat Japan. So I'm thinking the Americans just do it better.

Hmm, there has been an event probably in the US and the US did win. Well, if you say so, it is true. I could start a discussion now, but I didn't see the event and which japanese D1 drifters took part etc etc which would lead into speculation again. It doesn't matter anyway, since you will probably agree, that drifting is not so much about actual car performance. Small and specialiced tuners work on the setup and use special drift tires and in the end some skilled drifters try to give their best to do some nice dirfts. Every car could win.

Stupid comment, trucks can race just as well as cars. I kinda resent that since I in fact race my truck in autocross events. It's decent if you know how to build them.

Ok trucks can do real races, it's not very popular outside the US though and that's why GM's domination ( as you stated ) means not that much. There is no real international competition

GM can't win on its own merits? It has to have crappy companies its up against? Wow you do sound very anti-american biased.

You're right, but that is not my intention. I don't know how to express it in a more diplomatic way.
How do you say, that for the US military is more powerful that than the military of XYZ ?
How do you say that the best digi cams are from Japan, not from country XYZ ?

I don't think that GM sucks, but imo the majority of sporty American cars are not as
fast as the same category of cars in Japan and Europe.
But that is not Anti American biased imo, take Baseball or A. Football : the US is number one for sure. - look, I am not Anti American
I mean, the Corvette is fast, but a Porsche with the same power-to-weight ratio is faster, isn't it ? I bet even the NSX-R would have a chance on the track, although its ratio is worse.

 

[xXSilencerXx]

Nascar... sorry but as far as I know the technology in Nascar is rather conservative and the variation between the cars is small. Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the idea behind the Nascar philosphy, but are there any car manufacturers in Nascar which is not from the USA ? Only international competition really shows GM's real position

There are diffences in car bodies. That's why Ford and Dodge guys complain about chevys dominating the Superspeedways but won't admit they have advantages at the 1 mile tracks. There is also differences in engines in the sense of who supplies them. They are essentially the same but they all produce different power, endurance and economy capabilities.

And like blazin said Toyota is in the Truck series and I'm guessin that they try to get in the bigger series eventually.

 

[Joey D]

Hmm, there has been an event probably in the US and the US did win. Well, if you say so, it is true. I could start a discussion now, but I didn't see the event and which japanese D1 drifters took part etc etc which would lead into speculation again. It doesn't matter anyway, since you will probably agree, that drifting is not so much about actual car performance. Small and specialiced tuners work on the setup and use special drift tires and in the end some skilled drifters try to give their best to do some nice dirfts. Every car could win.

http://www.d1gp.com shows the US vs. Japan where the Mustang did indeed win. But drifting is still car based and you wouldn't be able to do it good with a crappy car.

Ok trucks can do real races, it's not very popular outside the US though and that's why GM's domination ( as you stated ) means not that much. There is no real international competition

Baja, Paris Dakar Rally, the big semis? Trucks race all over the world.

I mean, the Corvette is fast, but a Porsche with the same power-to-weight ratio is faster, isn't it ? I bet even the NSX-R would have a chance on the track, although its ratio is worse.

Ring times:
Corvette Z06 - 7:42
NSX-R: 7:56
BMW CSL: 7:50
The 996 is the closest at 7:43

I highly doubt a 911 would be faster, and I always factor in cost when it comes down to it because you can build a car that will be awesome on the track but have a price tag that reads "Arm & Leg".

 

[Max_DC]

http://www.d1gp.com shows the US vs. Japan where the Mustang did indeed win. But drifting is still car based and you wouldn't be able to do it good with a crappy car.

Correct

Baja, Paris Dakar Rally, the big semis? Trucks race all over the world.

Touché

Ring times:
Corvette Z06 - 7:42
NSX-R: 7:56
BMW CSL: 7:50
The 996 is the closest at 7:43

Well the ring certainly is the ultimate test, but it demands power at certain points (
longs and straight parts, elevation changes ). What is the Hp of the Corvette ? 400 ?( I just looked it up, 500 hp and 1420 kg ) : 3kg/PS
The NSX has 280 PS and 1270 kg : 4.xx kg / PS
Also, what Porsche is it ? 996 turbo ? gt3 ? compare the power weight ratio - result ?

On other Race tracks ( more corners , less straight parts/elevation changes ) things might be different.
The Z06 is a great car though, no doupt about that.

I highly doubt a 911 would be faster, and I always factor in cost when it comes down to it because you can build a car that will be awesome on the track but have a price tag that reads "Arm & Leg".

That's the way I see it, too. The Z06 costs 80 k EUR, which is a good price imo.
But then... Take a Nissan Skyline GT-R or a 350 Z and tune it. You should get a faster car for less than 60 k EUR, maybe even less than 50 k.
I know that this not a perfect argument, but ...

 

[Joey D]

Ah my mistake I overlooked the fact you were European. In America the Z06 can't be beat.

 

[McLaren]

Ah my mistake I overlooked the fact you were European. In America the Z06 can't be beat.

Saleen S7?

 

[YSSMAN]

1) Toyota is going to be (or atleast supposed to be) campaigning a Camry or Solara in the Bush series this season, as it was said a few months ago that testing had began on the car. Toyota used to campaign a Celica in a few of the lower NASCAR race series. Their surpise success in the Craftsman Truck Series caught GM, Ford, and DC offguard and they apparently have made a comitment to essentially beat them out of the business...

2) As far as Indy racing goes, Chevrolet is still in it... But I will admit that they have been getting their asses handed to them by Honda and Toyota both... Before, it was Chevy dishing it out to Infiniti and Ford. In the case of F1, its really not something that America cares about, therefore American companies wont participate. There is too much money to be spent with too little recognition to be gained... It would have been like putting the Pontiac Sunfire into WRC competition...

3) Japanese drivers (I dont know about factory support) do compete in D-1 drifting, but GM-supported drifting done by Millen in the Pontiac GTO simply wipes the floor with the competition. Personally, I think the sport is a joke... I could care less who wins or looses there...

4) The Chevrolet Corvette Z06 is still the performance bargain no matter where you are in the world. For less than $70K US when you can kick the snot out of most of the European and Japanese compeditors that cost twice as much, you know its a good deal. But to say that a well-tuned 350Z can match it for the same price is an awefully stretched statement. Although it can be done, no questions there, it would cost well over $70K total to even approach the Z06's performance.

 

[Joey D]

Saleen S7?

And how much does it cost? Quite a bit.

 

[McLaren]

Well, I thought you meant in terms of performance, since you just said, "In America the Z06 can't be beat."

BTW, can the Z06 be custom-made for you like the S7?

 

[YSSMAN]

If by custom made you mean you can order the color and a few other minor options, yeah!

But the engine is hand built in Detroit before it is sent to Kentucky where final assembly takes place...

 

[Max_DC]

3) Japanese drivers (I dont know about factory support) do compete in D-1 drifting, but GM-supported drifting done by Millen in the Pontiac GTO simply wipes the floor with the competition. Personally, I think the sport is a joke... I could care less who wins or looses there...

So if I understand you correctly, you want to tell us, that GM-supported drifting done by Millen in the Pontiac GTO is by far better than all the japanese D1 drifters and teams, who do drifting in a professional way for 10 years, just because one- certainly talented - driver won an event for the first time ( note the fact that place 2-10 are japanese names on the link BlazinExtreme provided) ?
As I said before, dirfting might not be a good way to show the performance abilities of car brands, but many people like the sport, as I do, it is great entertainment, and that's what it is about, right ?

4) The Chevrolet Corvette Z06 is still the performance bargain no matter where you are in the world. For less than $70K US when you can kick the snot out of most of the European and Japanese compeditors that cost twice as much, you know its a good deal. But to say that a well-tuned 350Z can match it for the same price is an awefully stretched statement. Although it can be done, no questions there, it would cost well over $70K total to even approach the Z06's performance.

While it might cost $70K US in the USA, it costs $95K US in Germany for example.
A 350Z stock is $41 k US, well tuned ( 450 hp with mods on suspension and brakes ) for $55 k US and therefor a little more modification will resulut in this : a car that is $ 30 k US cheaper than the Z06 and faster.

 

[Poverty]

The Chevrolet Corvette Z06 is still the performance bargain no matter where you are in the world.

Whats wrong with you? Dont you listen to what we have said. A ZO6 would cost me £90,000 pounds in the UK. I can get a TVR that is faster than a Z06 for £40,000 pounds and a TVR that obliterates a Z06 for £50,000.

Outside of america the Z06 is no bargain. Hell I could get a gallardo or porsche for 90,000 pounds.

 

[Kylehnat]

£90,000 = $155,000 U.S.

 

[Onikaze]

Sounds about right.

If Chevy officially sold it over there, maybe it would be less than $155,000 USD equivalent.

Which would leave it as a heck of a bargain again, instead of just another car that costs more than a TVR, isn't quite as fast, but won't leave parts laying around.

 

[YSSMAN]

I dont know where you get your price tag of £90,000...

As I looked the C6 Z06 up on TopGear.com, they list the Corvette Z06 at £60,000...

Proof: see bottom of page

BTW: £60,000=$103,247

Comparibly, the TVR Segaris (the Z06's closest compeditor) comparibly equipped (including A/C, full trim, close ratio gear box, and red paint) costs £55,512.50 including destination. A savings of £4,500 is nice, but the rareity of having a Corvette (IMO) would be well worth it.

BTW: £55,512.50=$95,525.40

 

[Poverty]

Yeah but look at who wrote that article. Hes a nobody.

Heres what your more likely to pay which doesnt include the admintration and processing fee's which you will undoubtly have to pay and then pay for all the other stuff before you get it on the road such as tax. You will more than likely pay about £73,000 for a Z06. And thsi was the cheapest one I could find. And the cars in LHD.!!!

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/WW...urce=0&photo=1&sort=5&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

A savings of £4,500 is nice, but the rareity of having a Corvette (IMO) would be well worth it.

You will be lucky to see 2 TVRs a year. This year ive only seen one tuscan and one sagaris. Both in the summer. I also saw a C4 chevy though. Both of these cars are extremly rare in the UK but the TVR is arguably alot more exotic in its styling.

£90,000 = $155,000 U.S.

We have to remebr that sadly things arent this simple. I mean the most expensive nike trainers will be around 12-140 US dollars right? Well I pay £120 pounds for my nike TN's. I could just get them shipped over from the states but when it comes to trainers im a impulse buyer.

Oh and happy new year.

 

[McLaren]

If by custom made you mean you can order the color and a few other minor options, yeah!

But the engine is hand built in Detroit before it is sent to Kentucky where final assembly takes place...

As in everything. Saleen offers custom seating sizes, as well as other things upon buyer's request.

 

[Joey D]

The S7 isn't really a production car, the Z06 is.

 

[McLaren]

The S7 isn't really a production car, the Z06 is.

Oh please don't tell me your going to use that as an excuse. 👎

 

[Joey D]

Why not? It's perfectly legit, the Saleen S7 is hand built and made to order if I'm not mistaken. Also it cost 550,000 grand....the Z06 is 67,000. See the difference?

I'm not saying the Saleen isn't an amazing car, I'm just saying you pay a helluva lot a money for it. Also it isn't a production car, something that is made on the line and has more then 10 in exsistance (example I don't know how many S7's were made). But I there isn't a huge market for half a million dollar cars, but there is a market for 67,000 cars.

For a half a mill the company should do what ever I want with the car. The Z06 is bought off the lot with a limited number of options.

See the difference?

 

[McLaren]

Why not? It's perfectly legit, the Saleen S7 is hand built and made to order if I'm not mistaken. Also it cost 550,000 grand....the Z06 is 67,000. See the difference?

I'm not saying the Saleen isn't an amazing car, I'm just saying you pay a helluva lot a money for it. Also it isn't a production car, something that is made on the line and has more then 10 in exsistance (example I don't know how many S7's were made). But I there isn't a huge market for half a million dollar cars, but there is a market for 67,000 cars.

For a half a mill the company should do what ever I want with the car. The Z06 is bought off the lot with a limited number of options.

See the difference?

I guess Koenigseggs, SLRs, and various other supercars don't count as they were and are handbuilt.

And there's more than 10 S7's. There's more than 20 in fact.

There's no difference. Both are produced from their manufacturers. Their both production.

 

[Joey D]

I don't really see these supercars as production cars. I see a production car as a Impala, Fusion, Charger, Altima, something like that. The Z06 boarders on a production car, but I still would consider it one since it's just a factory "option" for the Corvette.

Look at it this way...how many Z06's do you see on the road vs. how many S7's you see on the road. I've only ever seen one S7 on the road and that was during the Woodward Dream Cruise.

But you say there are more the 20 S7's, ok there is probably what about 50-60 of them? That's a very low volume, and there for not production...it's a built-to-order car. Plus you'll never see a S7 on the lot waiting for someone to buy it.

 

[McLaren]

Hmm...well, this pic is of a TT model...

So I'd say there's over 80 by far.
How many?
None compared to the Saleen.
I've seen 2 S7s on the roads here already, not to mention Lamborghini of Dallas got its 4th S7 (TT model) in not to long ago.

 

[Kylehnat]

I agree with Blazin on this. Any car handbuilt at the rate of 50 per year, customized to the owner's wishes, and costing $500,000 is not a production car. This includes the S7, Ferrari Enzo, Bugatti Veyron, Koenigsegg, Mercedes SLR, and Porsche Carrera. I don't care if they're all "production cars" by law, they're specialty cars that cannot be obtained with any sort of ease. If I had the money, I could go to the Chevy dealer right now and buy a Z06 (for 1/5th the price). That's a production car. Furthermore, the Z06 has always been far and away the best car for the money. Anything faster or better handling (or both) costs at least twice as much, and probably includes a waiting list.

 

[Max_DC]

I also agree with Blazinextreme and if we go into the 500k $ range there are many non US cars who are faster... the Z06 really is a good deal, even in Germany... the more I read about it, the better it seems to be compared to other cars in this price range