Sony's E3 game list...........no GT5

[JAGUAR1977]

You do realize that including Le Sarthe doesn't immediately make Forza comparable, right? The track has been in other games than GT, and GT was still better.

You'd have a point if Forza 2 was poor, but it's the current console sim leader in my opinion and those from Sim Racing Tonight.

You would assume Forza 3 will push the franchise to another level, improving on features like damage and customisation.

Until we get some official info on GT5 you have to assume the full game will only be GT5P with more cars and tracks, everything else is speculation. We hope for more, but you wouldn't put your house on XYZ features being included.

 

[paskowitz]

looks kinda fake... and its not even on the forza website. I doubt they would release something like this through viral marketing. Until I see Forza 3 and GT5 I will hold all judgment. Sure it could be a leak but I doubt it.

 

[FoolKiller]

Until we get some official info on GT5 you have to assume the full game will only be GT5P with more cars and tracks, everything else is speculation.

I assumed the only possible assumption would be a next gen upgrade to GT4 as GT4 Prologue to GT4 was a drastic difference. Nothing makes me think GT5 will just be GT5 Prologue + cars & tracks, as the history of the franchise is actually quite different.

But my point is that you are just pointing at Forza possibly having Le Sarthe, as if that is some end all be all, especially since any Forza 3 thoughts are just speculation. Nothing out about Forza 3 has any more facts than any of the stuff being tossed around about GT5, so I do not assume anything about either franchise aside from what systems they will be exclusives on.

At best we can assume they will follow their own franchise trends, which means that at best both will have strengths and weaknesses, and preference will be determined by individual tastes.




I am curious how you have enough experience with Forza 2 to be able to speak so highly of it if you will need to "shell out for an unreliable 360 and another wheel."

 

[Niks]

I, for one, am looking forward to the Forza 3 vs GT5 showdown at E3.
There is talk that Forza 3 will hit stores as soon as september.

 

[RedBaron]

Even GT4 had Le Mans, so it would be epic fail for Forza 3 not to have it.

 

[JAGUAR1977]

I assumed the only possible assumption would be a next gen upgrade to GT4 as GT4 Prologue to GT4 was a drastic difference. Nothing makes me think GT5 will just be GT5 Prologue + cars & tracks, as the history of the franchise is actually quite different.

But my point is that you are just pointing at Forza possibly having Le Sarthe, as if that is some end all be all, especially since any Forza 3 thoughts are just speculation. Nothing out about Forza 3 has any more facts than any of the stuff being tossed around about GT5, so I do not assume anything about either franchise aside from what systems they will be exclusives on.

At best we can assume they will follow their own franchise trends, which means that at best both will have strengths and weaknesses, and preference will be determined by individual tastes.

I am curious how you have enough experience with Forza 2 to be able to speak so highly of it if you will need to "shell out for an unreliable 360 and another wheel."

I do have friends with 360's.......

In their unltimate incarnations Gran Turismo and Forza should be virtually identical, they both aim to be the ultimate driving simulator, it's not like Killzone vs Halo, who can both go their own way with gameplay and art style.

Put it this way, I think it's asking more of PD to deliver GT5 with damage, customisation etc. in the jump from GT4, via GT5P, to GT5, than it is to expect Turn 10 to match GT5P's graphics in the leap from Forza 2 to Forza 3.

 

[Ardius]

In their unltimate incarnations Gran Turismo and Forza should be virtually identical, they both aim to be the ultimate driving simulator, it's not like Killzone vs Halo, who can both go their own way with gameplay and art style.

Actually, you say that but in the end, although the goal is the same, ultimately they do have gameplay and art style differences.....even in the very mechanics of the game like the scaling, colours, use of camera effects, etc, etc etc.

As much as they strive for it, they will never be perfect and thus always be different, they each have different areas that they perfect and thus it can easily be said even if both had graphics, physics, etc of equal quality, there is still some personal preferrence when it comes down to GUI's, replays, game menu layout, general game-design stuff.

It is impossible for them to be virtually identical, or as close to impossible as you can get, so there will always differences and always preferrences.
This is one of the reasons I'm interested in getting into the racing simulation market because there is no "perfect formula", each game has its key features which make it better than others. Unlike the platforming genre which is extremely difficult to jump into with original ideas. Thus I have a better chance with the game I create that it catches some kind of fanbase than I would with many other game genres.

 

[amar212]

Without ANY INTENTION to go into Forza vs. GT debate, ONE MINOR issue stands on Forza's way to be a true simulation - support for true force feedback wheels.

Forza series has some great options, miraculous online, almost perfect collision model, good tire/grip simulation in C,B and A car-classes - but it fails in wheel support, period.

Since I have Microsoft wheel and have been Xbox user since the first day of the first Xbox console - and have spent some hefty time in Forza 2 - it is far the greatest weakness of otherwise pretty solid game.

Microsoft's selfish decision not to implement adequate hardware/software in console - being solely driven by profit reason in such small margin that it's laughable - made their console and one of the most important franchises obsolete in any serious discussion and usage.

Even the semi-official announcement of new Forza 3 wheel - that being Fanatec's 911 Turbo S model - just can't do any good because the above mentioned hardware/software restrictions. I have further elaborate that matter here, so feel free to click:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

If Microsoft have been less greedy with their ridiculous decision regarding "profile to device" protocols and understood they would make more profit in long term if they go with already established force feedback solution, I can safely say that Forza 2 would probably still be the most played driving-simulation in the world.

But, even Forza 3 will remain heavily compromised in any serious discussion because the mentioned hardware-limitations. Of course, I do not doubt for a second that fanboyism, biasism and internet communities will successfully do thier part in minorisation of such important feature - but the fact remains.

I remain deeply confident that Microsoft have learned what does proper FF implementation can do for both their hardware/software business in such specialized genre such are driving games and that NeXtBox will come wiith adequate FF support.

Until than, any serious discussion regarding Forza vs. Gran Turismo issues ends after the slightest look at my X360 Microsoft Official Force Feedback Wheel.

 

[paskowitz]

I 100% agree. The G25 makes GT5p. Its just not the same game without it. Has anyone tried GTR Evo on a keyboard or PC controller... IT SUCKS. Its so boring. Sim games require a wheel. Other wise you are just playing a video game. When I first played PGR with the MS wheel I was like WTF is this crap... then I tried FM2 to see if it was the game... but my experience still sucked. I really think they should do a bundle with a PS3, DS3, GT5 and a Logitech DFGT (for say $500).

 

[newbielives]

Your statement hit it out of the ball park

G25 is the only reason I don't go back to Forza2 with the MS Wheel
I can't seem to play any racing game anymore that does not have support for H-shifter and clutch
Racing without needing to clutch/ heal toe downshift/ Well timed left foot braking just feels so incomplete.

Without ANY INTENTION to go into Forza vs. GT debate, ONE MINOR issue stands on Forza's way to be a true simulation - support for true force feedback wheels.

Forza series has some great options, miraculous online, almost perfect collision model, good tire/grip simulation in C,B and A car-classes - but it fails in wheel support, period.

Since I have Microsoft wheel and have been Xbox user since the first day of the first Xbox console - and have spent some hefty time in Forza 2 - it is far the greatest weakness of otherwise pretty solid game.

Microsoft's selfish decision not to implement adequate hardware/software in console - being solely driven by profit reason in such small margin that it's laughable - made their console and one of the most important franchises obsolete in any serious discussion and usage.

Even the semi-official announcement of new Forza 3 wheel - that being Fanatec's 911 Turbo S model - just can't do any good because the above mentioned hardware/software restrictions. I have further elaborate that matter here, so feel free to click:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

If Microsoft have been less greedy with their ridiculous decision regarding "profile to device" protocols and understood they would make more profit in long term if they go with already established force feedback solution, I can safely say that Forza 2 would probably still be the most played driving-simulation in the world.

But, even Forza 3 will remain heavily compromised in any serious discussion because the mentioned hardware-limitations. Of course, I do not doubt for a second that fanboyism, biasism and internet communities will successfully do thier part in minorisation of such important feature - but the fact remains.

I remain deeply confident that Microsoft have learned what does proper FF implementation can do for both their hardware/software business in such specialized genre such are driving games and that NeXtBox will come wiith adequate FF support.

Until than, any serious discussion regarding Forza vs. Gran Turismo issues ends after the slightest look at my X360 Microsoft Official Force Feedback Wheel.

 

[Tenacious D]

Forza series has some great options, miraculous online, almost perfect collision model, good tire/grip simulation in C,B and A car-classes - but it fails in wheel support, period.

I would just like to say that the collision implementation in Forza 2 has to be the worst in gaming. Not because it runs from something like 25 - 35% depending on whether it's a Ferrari or a Mustang wrecking, but because the game freezes for a split second while it tries to decide how to handle the damage. Often, the damage textures don't show up on my 360 for almost a second after a collision. Add to that the iffy FFB implementation and crappy proprietary wheel, the oversteer in every car, the same lame driver views from the 90s, the miserable track selection, all the bugs Turn 10 won't or can't fix, and Forza 2 is a nice game that's quite overrated. Including by the Sim Racing Tonight people.

But Jags, you might as well save up for that 360 and so on, because I can tell just by the way you gush over F2 that you're going to have a Viagra moment when you see F3.

 

[paskowitz]

The only good thing about FM2's damage is the fact that it exists and if you have it turned all the way up, race online, get in a huge crash, your car is finished. Otherwise it sucks. I like rFactor and GTR Evo's damage because when you get hit you can really feel it in the way the car drives.

I agree the FM2 is overrated. I do not hate the game and will admit I really like customizing cars, but overall its really dull. To me FM2 is like GT4, it is good overall but has a lot of flaws. I actually want FM3 to be great so I can find a reason to get a 360. If FM3 is good then I will have 2 great console racing games the other being GT5 of course.

 

[JAGUAR1977]

I would just like to say that the collision implementation in Forza 2 has to be the worst in gaming. Not because it runs from something like 25 - 35% depending on whether it's a Ferrari or a Mustang wrecking, but because the game freezes for a split second while it tries to decide how to handle the damage. Often, the damage textures don't show up on my 360 for almost a second after a collision. Add to that the iffy FFB implementation and crappy proprietary wheel, the oversteer in every car, the same lame driver views from the 90s, the miserable track selection, all the bugs Turn 10 won't or can't fix, and Forza 2 is a nice game that's quite overrated. Including by the Sim Racing Tonight people.

The bigger point is Turn 10 now have the experience of damage etc, and 2-3 further years to make improvements for Forza 3, PD will be taking their first shot at such features, and who's to say they'll nail them first time out?

Afterall it took until GT5P for the A.I. to have any semblence of, well, A.I.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, Forza 1's A.I. was pretty awful. In fact, the game was terrible. I had a LOT of trouble adjusting to a game which had different physics and zero force feedback, along with some poor driver views and some strange 3D. I went back and raced it a few months ago and almost swallowed my gum. I forgot how awful it truly was.

Forza 2 was a nice improvement, but you had to buy that crappy FFB Wheel to the tune of $150, which I did, and you HAVE to if you're going to race properly. And as others have added to my own mini critique, it's about as good as GT4, a little better in some respects such as having a very basic - and different for certain cars - damage model, and fairly decent wheel dynamics. The wealth of tuning options and livery editor is wonderful. Also bad because of the bugs and flaws, such as the layers shifting each time you take your car out of the garage, even just to take pics, and improper physics implementation, as certain cars unrealistically dominate the leaderboards, causing a patch to have to be released in a couple of months and the boards reset, which has occurred several times since release. Just scrolling through the cars in your garage or online Auction House can make the game crash, and if it crashes in the Auction House, it can get you banned from Live. And if you say that GT4's physics are dodgy because you can't do a donut or other issues you'd care to mention, the fact that all cars oversteer and drifting is way too easy is an indication its physics model is skewed as well. And then of course is the issue of all the promised content they cut out, which they were hyping as guaranteed until five months prior to release. It ended up being a smaller game than FM1 except for car count.

So if you want to take a car and race mod and paint it for pics, Forza 2 is incredible. If you want to race it, it's just different. And I'm not expecting anything earthshaking from FM3, just FM2 but larger. I expect every car to oversteer. It will probably have cockpit cam, which I can't use. It will have bugs, glitches, and need to be patched several times because they get stuff wrong they should have caught to start with, just like every piece of software Microsoft ever made.

 

[amar212]

I would just like to say that the collision implementation in Forza 2 has to be the worst in gaming. Not because it runs from something like 25 - 35% depending on whether it's a Ferrari or a Mustang wrecking...

"Collision model" is NOT "damage model".

I speak about collision physics solely which is pretty much great as tire-grip, tire-weight and weight-grip calculations are concerned and compared to any other driving game outhere.

Damage has nothing to do with it.

 

[Tenacious D]

Eh, I don't know, Amar. I'm unaware of any other game freezing while the game thinks for a split second on what just happened and what to do with it. GRID has some very nice damage modeling and "destructable" tire barriers, and it seems to have no issues when things go bump. It's fairly lifelike. That freeze in Forza 2 is often more jarring than the collision.

 

[amar212]

Collision is not damage. Collision is physics interaction with other objects - such as barriers, other cars, track objects, surfaces and such - when actual car model changes it's handling and weight-shift characteristics due to unexpected input by outer mass-source.

I do not care about F2's damage model, but I highly care about it's collision physics model. And those are two totally different things.

 

[gazcanuk]

Back on topic = I don't think we're going to be given anything at this years E3 event which would indicate to me that game won't be released until November/December 2010. If this game was going to be released Q4 09 or Q1 10 they WOULD be making a big deal out of it at E3 '09.

 

[J-PaP]

can't people just stop posting crap. it's frustrating that after 6 pages people still are making comments on this topic that isn't a news update.

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't think we're going to be given anything at this years E3 event

This has nothing to do with

This

If this game was going to be released Q4 09 or Q1 10 they WOULD be making a big deal out of it at E3 '09.

I am assuming you mean that if they do plan to release it when the rumors say that they would currently be making a big deal about it being at E3. The thing you are forgetting is that marketing guys love to make surprises, because that grabs headlines. If they never say anything about it and then present this huge and amazing thing it will get talked about a lot more than if it was expected. Similarly, many other titles have not been mentioned for the various different companies. If you went just by what has been confirmed to be discussed at E3 then you would only expect about five games from each of the consoles.


I am not saying you are wrong to think it won't be there, because none of us know for sure, but your reasoning just doesn't make sense as a large amount of time at E3 every year is spent on surprises that hadn't been mentioned before.

As an example of other games to look at: Hideo Kojima has something coming, but all he has done is put up Websites with obscure images of a field and counters that countdown to other counters. It may be a new Metal Gear Solid, it may not. All we know right now is that he has something.

Similarly, with Forza 3 we know absolutely nothing other than rumors saying to expect them at E3. Heck, nearly all the 360 stuff is kept secret until E3.

Pretty much, if Sony isn't talking about something that they are going to show it is because they want to blow your mind.

 

[Niks]

Well Forza 3 is confirmed to make an appearance at E3. Add to that, pretty much confirmed weather effects + late autumn/early winter release...

On the other hand we have nothing on GT(not even a confirmed appearance at E3), just Amars message...


Not dissing GT but man, releasing Forza3 right before GT sure would be a big blow for GT/Sony?

 

[gazcanuk]

I am assuming you mean that if they do plan to release it when the rumors say that they would currently be making a big deal about it being at E3. The thing you are forgetting is that marketing guys love to make surprises, because that grabs headlines. If they never say anything about it and then present this huge and amazing thing it will get talked about a lot more than if it was expected. Similarly, many other titles have not been mentioned for the various different companies. If you went just by what has been confirmed to be discussed at E3 then you would only expect about five games from each of the consoles.

I am simply saying that they would be looking to maximise marketing at this stage if the game was being released either later on this year or early next. I'm aware that marketing guys like to make surprises, and being a marketing guy myself am surprised that they are not making a LOT of noise about the long awaited release of GT5! For sure surprising people is a tool often used in marketing, but if you want to maximise publicity and you want your product to maximise its impact on a given market place then you at least announce its presence at an event like E3. Putting it on the list alone would attract attention, how could they leave it off the list? A surprise? Really, I doubt there will be anything more than an announcement for an update for GT5P.

As an example of other games to look at: Hideo Kojima has something coming, but all he has done is put up Websites with obscure images of a field and counters that countdown to other counters. It may be a new Metal Gear Solid, it may not. All we know right now is that he has something.

And this is the part I don't understand. Why have we heard nothing about GT5 if it is going out to the masses within 12 months? The example you give here is a marketing strategy, which builds up suspense and triggers curiosity feelings. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only 'new' thing we've heard about GT5P/GT5 is a Cafe opening?! I know everyone likes a surprise, but surely 'they' would start dropping hints by now.
One wacky thought: I wouldn't be surprised if we never actually get GT5. I think GT6 will be released in 2011 with a major GT5P update in between

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Add to that, pretty much confirmed weather effects + late autumn/early winter release...

Either something is officially confirmed or it isn't. Saying something is pretty much confirmed is like saying someone is Guilty-ish... either they are guilty or not guilty at any given time.

As for the possibility that Forza 3 might come out a few weeks, even months before GT or vice versa, that isn't likely going to make that much of a difference considering fans and early buyers are likely to be well aware of when a game they really want is coming out and will wait for it, and those on the fence who plan on only getting one or the other, are also likely going to wait until both are out in order to properly compare them and base their decision on that.

I suspect both will be very entertaining games and will sell extremely well regardless of which one comes out first... especially considering they are not multi-platform titles having to compete against each other on the same console.

If any game should be worried about when GT5 and Forza 3 comes it it should be Need For Speed: Shift... although even it should sell extremely well considering how well past games have sold despite recent versions getting less than favorable reviews.

And this is the part I don't understand. Why have we heard nothing about GT5 if it is going out to the masses within 12 months?

Many companies purposefully release little to no information about their products until they are actually ready to be released. Perhaps the best example of this type of marketing and business strategy is Apple, who is famous for not releasing any information about new products until they are ready to be released... and as an example, most marketing strategists will agree that Apple's tight lipped methods haven't hurt them at all, instead many would argue that policy has helped them... especially by keeping their competitors guessing, and avoiding making promises that they later find out they can't keep.

Compared to Apple, Polyphony Digital is a chatter box regarding their upcoming products.

 

[Niks]

I guess we will see if PD 3+ year development was really worth it, as I think the Forza 3 vs GT5 debate will be a matter of looks vs features.

Hopefully E3 will give us more info to make a more clear assessment.

 

[FoolKiller]

For sure surprising people is a tool often used in marketing, but if you want to maximise publicity and you want your product to maximise its impact on a given market place then you at least announce its presence at an event like E3. Putting it on the list alone would attract attention, how could they leave it off the list?

And this is the part I don't understand. Why have we heard nothing about GT5 if it is going out to the masses within 12 months?

Similarly it could be asked why nothing official was ever said about the Video Store on the PSN for North America until Jack Tretton showed it and announced that it was live as of the beginning of the presentation? Or why did Microsoft not hint at getting a major PlayStation exclusive on the 360 as well (Final Fantasy XIII)?

Big game shows are all about showing off, which typically involves officially announcing things. If someone high up got some idea in their head about how awesome they would look to hold back on feature updates in GT5P and then show these incredibly awesome features in their official GT5 announcement then what the marketing guys would rather do is moot. As all kinds of stuff is supposed to be getting done in June, like more than half the PSP stuff, new PSN avatars, and who knows what else, I think Sony is on a big kick to make June huge. It creates the hype to get through the typical summer drought of games.

Another thing to remember is that GT5 is so big that they don't need to build it up anymore. If anything, this site shows that just the knowledge it will be coming out sometime has created enough hype to get people talking about it. And Sony does stuff backward on occasion, like hyping an announcement for a price drop on the PS2. But in this instance, no added hype is necessary. At E3 if there is a sudden car engine sound during the Sony presentation every head will immediately snap to attention, and then a few hundred Twitter or live blog comments will go out at once. Even guys that don't like car games recognize GT as a technical achievement.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only 'new' thing we've heard about GT5P/GT5 is a Cafe opening?! I know everyone likes a surprise, but surely 'they' would start dropping hints by now.

When you say hints do you mean like Kazunori Yamauchi doing interviews and making comments about how it will come out sooner than we expect and discussing features that they are working on?

One last thing to consider: As the fanboy back and forth can be heated even with very little information available to discuss, couldn't putting details out risk adding to the fire, and possibly cause some negative marketing? We already have comments about other games that will be better, when no one has information to be able to honestly say that.


Or it could just be that with games like Shift and Super Car Challenge attempting to show how much better than GT5 they will be that PD/Sony are just waiting to have enough stuff to show at once to silence them in one mighty swoop.

 

[CerealKiller]

Personally I can't help but remember that we've seen this exact same thread play out before last years E3 and before every major gaming/auto conference since then. Can't help but be sceptical we'll be left with little to no official word after this one too, then it's on to anticipating the next...

 

[Kryz11]

Well Forza 3 is confirmed to make an appearance at E3. Add to that, pretty much confirmed weather effects + late autumn/early winter release...

On the other hand we have nothing on GT(not even a confirmed appearance at E3), just Amars message...


Not dissing GT but man, releasing Forza3 right before GT sure would be a big blow for GT/Sony?

Why? Fans would buy the two, I will. I think it's better for SONY to release the game later because we all know it will be more polished. As what Forza 3 promises, and only in TWO (2) year wait? Comon, you know it's FM2 with bit better graphics and bit more content.
GT5 release later on will really prove they made everything they could to bring weather and damage as well many new tracks and cars.

 

[Studentdriver]

Personally I can't help but remember that we've seen this exact same thread play out before last years E3 and before every major gaming/auto conference since then. Can't help but be sceptical we'll be left with little to no official word after this one too, then it's on to anticipating the next...

Can you direct me to the thread from last year where Amar gave us hints about GT5 that set the rest of the Internet ablaze with anticipation?

...

No? Hmmmm.

 

[Cocomoto]

So, Amar, you think Forza is better than GT5(P) ?

 

[Antti-san]

And if you say that GT4's physics are dodgy because you can't do a donut or other issues you'd care to mention, the fact that all cars oversteer and drifting is way too easy is an indication its physics model is skewed as well.

I agree with you 100%. 👍 It's funny, in GT4 every car understeers and in Forza 2 every car oversteers!

Every time I play those two games, I realise just how much I love the driving model in GT5P.