Spy row to cost McLaren big time?

[Venari]

Ahh, bloody, diddums.

www.sniffpetrol.com

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Ahh, bloody, diddums.

www.sniffpetrol.com

‘This decision sets a very serious precedent, namely that the FIA is now prepared to let other teams get away with cheating as well as us’.

 

[m7ammed]

but if they found them guilty of possession then why didn't they punish them ? I can see where Ferrari is coming from about this .... if your found guilty you should be penalized full stop

 

[Kylehnat]

Think of other sports. If they prove you bought steroids, but you never used them, should you be punished as if you had?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Think of other sports. If they prove you bought steroids, but you never used them, should you be punished as if you had?

Like how just yesterday the leader of the world's greatest cycling race was forced to withdrawal from the race only a few days from the finish despite passing the drug tests during the Tour? Yes.

Besides, in most cases, just the possession of steroids is illegal.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Think of other sports. If they prove you bought steroids, but you never used them, should you be punished as if you had?

But then it's a question of whether McLaren knew they had the data. Say for example that Ferrari's data is "Set A" and what McLaren had before they acquired it was "Set C". Now, Coughlan could easily have just gone from "Set C" to "Set A", but if he gradually intorduced it in a way that wouldn't arouse suspicion - let's call that data "Set B" - the wider team may have had no idea that they'd acquired Ferrari's data illegally. I seriously doubt Mike Coughlan would have gone up to Ron Dennis and said, "Oh, hey Ron, the new car's just about ready ... oh yeah, I put some Ferrari technical data into it that I bought illegally from Nigel Stepney."

 

[Alfaholic]

From the ITV F1 link: "Ferrari... finds it incomprehensible that violating the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not have, as a logical and inevitable consequence, the application of a sanction," the team statement said."

Yeah, but Ferrari weren't exactly jumping up and down in a rush to penalise Scummy when he tried to ram his way to the world title in 1997, had no problem calling Scummy in to serve a stop / go penalty on his finishing lap at Silverstone a few year ago to ensure that the penalty didn't cost them the race win, and shrugged their shoulders when he parked his car in the middle of the Monaco circuit to stop other people outqualifying him. I'd love to hear their definition of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

All good points, except Ferrari/Schumy were penalized for all those infractions of the rules, and even cost Schumy the '97 World Championship and hurt his chances of winning the '06 championship, although a blown engine in the second to last GP at Suzuka ultimately prevented Schumacher from winning the championship.

One of the worst wise tales of F1 though is that Ferrari never get's penalized, which is utterly ridiculous, just as ridiculous as those that claim Ferrari never breaks the rules.

 

[Sureboss]

Maybe then DN the point more needs to be...

How can Ferrari moan about others cheating when they've done it themselves?

Also, you can't punish McLaren just because Ferrari were punished for infringements. if McLaren used the information it'd be a different story.

 

[Alfaholic]

All good points, except Ferrari/Schumy were penalized for all those infractions of the rules, and even cost Schumy the '97 World Championship and hurt his chances of winning the '06 championship, although a blown engine in the second to last GP at Suzuka ultimately prevented Schumacher from winning the championship.

One of the worst wise tales of F1 though is that Ferrari never get's penalized, which is utterly ridiculous, just as ridiculous as those that claim Ferrari never breaks the rules.

Scummy lost the '97 championship because his attempt to knock Villeneuve out of the race failed. His punishment from the FIA didn't take the championship away from him because he didn't win the championship in the first place. Villeneuve beat him. Ferrari suffered no loss for his actions, if I recall correctly. They kept all their constructors points. My point in both instances though was not that they weren't punished, because in the two incidences mentioned above, Schumacher (and significantly Schumacher alone and not not his whole team) was punished by the FIA, but that Ferrari themselves made no obvious effort to correct their driver's behaviour and even tried to defend him at first. So it's hypocritical of them to harp on about sporting honesty.

 

[spong]

 

[Alfaholic]

 

[Avery GT]

okay , now that made my day

 

[slackbladder]

I don't know what will happen. Perhaps McLaren should be penalised in some way (thrown out of the Constructor championship perhaps). But if the onus is on McLaren being proved guilty of having an unfair advantage rather then McLaren proving their innocence then it won't be easy to prove.

I know one thing for sure. If McLaren had got thrown out of the championship I wouldn't have watched the rest of the season. Why bother? And if at some point they are, regardless of the fact that they had to be punished, I most certainly wouldn't bother with F1 this year. And probably quite a few hundred thousands of others would agree. (cynical mode)I wonder if that's why McLaren received no punishment?

 

[Kylehnat]

And we all know that Bernie Ecclestone would NEVER pressure the FIA on matters that affect TV ratings.

 

[Avery GT]

And we all know that Bernie Ecclestone would NEVER pressure the FIA on matters that affect TV ratings.

let's generalise it...Bernie would never pressure on matter that would affect incoming moneeeeh $$$

 

[Tornado]

hurt his chances of winning the '06 championship, although a blown engine in the second to last GP at Suzuka ultimately prevented Schumacher from winning the championship.

Schumacher could have easily won the '06 championship going into the last two races. It was the blown engine and collision in the last two races that prevented it. He would have lost it even if he hadn't pulled the stunt in Monacco and had ended up beating Alonso in that race. The 4 point difference would not have negated the 13 points he lost by.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Schumacher could have easily won the '06 championship going into the last two races. It was the blown engine and collision in the last two races that prevented it. He would have lost it even if he hadn't pulled the stunt in Monacco and had ended up beating Alonso in that race. The 4 point difference would not have negated the 13 points he lost by.

hurt [not "cost"] his chances of winning the '06 championship, although a blown engine in the second to last GP at Suzuka ultimately prevented Schumacher from winning the championship.

I fail to see where we disagree in terms of what you responded to?

Although the point of my post was to address an often stated suggestion, mostly from over zealous fans of one team/driver over another, that Ferrari and their drivers always get away with "cheating" and those suggesting Ferrari and their drivers have never "cheated":

One of the worst wise tales of F1 though is that Ferrari never get's penalized, which is utterly ridiculous, just as ridiculous as those that claim Ferrari never breaks the rules.

Not only has Ferrari and their drivers, like most teams over the history of F1 and all forms of professional and amateur racing series broken various rules, they have also been regularly punished for those rule infractions.

How can Ferrari moan about others cheating when they've done it themselves?

Not sure what you are getting at. All the teams moan about other's "cheating" when they themselves have been punished for "cheating". It's been that way for as many years as I can remember, and it occurs in just about all sports that I can think of.

The point Ferrari is making, and it could be quite a legitimate one, is that this appears to be a significant rules violation, that without taking away the talents of both McLaren drivers, may also explain how McLaren has managed to go from having 0 victories, only 9 podium finishes, and 13 race retirements for the entire 2006 season to already having 5 victories, 16 podium finishes, and no race retriements in just 10 races.

That's a pretty shockingly fast turn around in performance don't you think?

Is it possible McLaren went from terribly unreliable, and barely competitive to dominating F1 all during the off-season without any "assistance" from illegally obtained technical data belonging to Ferrari? Sure. Although considering all the evidence that has been made public and presumably the evidence that has not yet been made official, nor likely ever will be, it may be even more likely they did find a way to benefit from those 700 pages of technical papers from ferrari, and possibly even more that has not been made official.

I personally think Alonso and especially Hamilton are immensely talented drivers, and in no way would I want to take away what they have done on the track. Personally, if McLaren cheated in order to have reliable and very competitive cars and this resulted in this wonderful close series, then I almost want to say, let them. In fact, while we are at it, let's give BMW and Renault copies of those documents as well.

As much as I enjoy seeing dominant performances in sports like that of Schumacher, Armstrong, Jordan, Federer, Woods, etc... I like it even more when they have strong rivals that push them to perform at their very best.

I realize F1, more than many auto sports, emphasizes constructor races. However, I personally prefer races where the differences in the actual cars doesn't play a critical role, such that the driver and his crew's efforts are what truly set each team apart... but at the same time I respect those that like how F1 also encourages significant differences between constructor’s cars.

If McLaren has used Ferrari's data to improve their car, then for those fans of the constructor's championship, I feel bad for them. For me though, despite the possibility that McLaren may very well have cheated significantly, at least it has made for a close Championship race among four very talented drivers. 👍

I don't know what will happen. Perhaps McLaren should be penalised in some way (thrown out of the Constructor championship perhaps). But if the onus is on McLaren being proved guilty of having an unfair advantage rather then McLaren proving their innocence then it won't be easy to prove.

I know one thing for sure. If McLaren had got thrown out of the championship I wouldn't have watched the rest of the season. Why bother? And if at some point they are, regardless of the fact that they had to be punished, I most certainly wouldn't bother with F1 this year. And probably quite a few hundred thousands of others would agree. (cynical mode)I wonder if that's why McLaren received no punishment?

I think you are being far more realistic than cynical. We are talking about the possibility of losing over a billion dollars in lost advertising revenue and future sponsorships! As much as it may pain the folks at Ferrari, they to would likely lose out as far as F1 popularity dropping to new lows if McLaren was thrown out of F1, even if they may truly deserve that severe of a punishment.

On the other hand, the problem with not punishing McLaren, especially after they were found guilty of possessing those 700 pages of Ferrari technical data that their chief engineer, Mike Coughlan had possibly, and most likely received from former chief engineer for Ferrari and close friend, Nigel Stepney… is that it also sends a message to all the constructor’s that as long as their cheating isn’t on-track and blatantly obvious to outside observers, they might be able to get away with it, even if it is discovered by F1 officials.

 

[Sureboss]

The point Ferrari is making, and it could be quite a legitimate one, is that this appears to be a significant rules violation, that without taking away the talents of both McLaren drivers, may also explain how McLaren has managed to go from having 0 victories, only 9 podium finishes, and 13 race retirements for the entire 2006 season to already having 5 victories, 16 podium finishes, and no race retriements in just 10 races.

That's a pretty shockingly fast turn around in performance don't you think?

Is it possible McLaren went from terribly unreliable, and barely competitive to dominating F1 all during the off-season without any "assistance" from illegally obtained technical data belonging to Ferrari? Sure. Although considering all the evidence that has been made public and presumably the evidence that has not yet been made official, nor likely ever will be, it may be even more likely they did find a way to benefit from those 700 pages of technical papers from ferrari, and possibly even more that has not been made official.

Sorry to take out 2/3s of the post....

Weren't those documents 'given' to McLaren (or however you want to word it) in April?

That'd leave no time to build a car around it.

Just because someone has an immense turn around doesn't mean there's something dodgy a foot. Or did Honda take information from Spyker before the season?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Weren't those documents 'given' to McLaren (or however you want to word it) in April?

I don't think we will ever know how much Ferrari data was passed on to McLaren since last year. They already have proof that Mclaren was in possesion of illegally obtained Ferrari documents, what's to say they haven't receieved other critial technical data before this was discovered? However, without knowing all the facts, all we can do is speculate on the facts that we do know.

Just because someone has an immense turn around doesn't mean there's something dodgy a foot. Or did Honda take information from Spyker before the season?

I think I made that point already, just as I also pointed out that just because it might be possible to have that kind of a dramatic turnaround without "cheating", considering the evidence and probabilities, one must also concede that it is just as likely, if not more so that their dramatic turnaround is very much linked to this espionage case... but of course, it is also very unlikely we will ever truly learn all the facts surrounding this case.

 

[Kylehnat]

I wouldn't call it a dramatic turn around. Towards the end of last year, McLaren was getting back on the program, and weren't too far behind Renault and Ferrari. Hamilton and Alonso are both a step up in terms of testing input, and Ferrari had to have gone backwards a bit without Michael Schumacher or Ross Brawn. Overall, it looks like McLaren improved ten-fold, but it very well could be the culmination of several smaller changes. Besides, it's freaking McLaren! There is no way they'd stay down for long.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I wouldn't call it a dramatic turn around. Towards the end of last year, McLaren was getting back on the program, and weren't too far behind Renault and Ferrari.

???

Actually go back and look at the last three races of 2006 and explain how you came to that conclusion.

In China Kimi was beaten by both Hondas in qualifying and only got as far as lap 18 when he had to retire due to a mechanical failure. Pedro had a decent race, but was still nearly 80 seconds behind Schumacher and Alonso and only finished 5th.

In Japan, neither Kimi nor Pedro even made it to Q3, and Kimi finished 5th, tying his worst finish of the year (excluding the 6 DNF's, mostly all from mechanical failures). Pedro fared far worse, and came in 11th, his worst finish of of his 8 race season with McLaren (excluding his 2 DNF's, both of which were mechanical failures!).

In Brazil, Kimi does put in a good Q3 lap and takes P2, but Pedro again comes up short and misses Q3. In the race Kimi's car couldn't match the pace of the lead Ferrari, Renault and Honda cars and once again finished 5th, another tie for his worst finish of the season. Pedro had his second worst finish, coming in 8th and well off the pace of the leaders.

So no, McLaren most certainly was not improving by the end of 2006. In fact, one could easily argue the point that they were actually getting worse.

Hamilton and Alonso are both a step up in terms of testing input,

Actually, Hamilton was already doing testing for McLaren, and other than Montoya and Kimi leaving and McLaren bringing in Alonso, the list of McLaren drivers remained unchanged. So while I certainly respect Alonso, they lost two very competent drivers (undoubtedly fed up with all the reliability problems they experienced with McLaren cars) who have proven their ability to win and have a great deal of experience in testing and setting up a car.


Besides a very noticeable improvement in McLaren's performance from last year, and especially the end of last year to this year. I think the thing that looks the most suspicious is how exceptionally reliable their car has all of a sudden become, while at the same time extremely competitive. They had 13 DNF's last year, almost all from mechanical failures plaguing all three McLaren drivers. One thing Ferrari's are famous for is reliability while remaining very competitive.

It is extremely difficult to ignore the circumstances, especially when they are combined with the simple fact that it has already been proven that McLaren had access to a great deal of top secret Ferrari technical data.

 

[Tornado]

The point Ferrari is making, and it could be quite a legitimate one, is that this appears to be a significant rules violation, that without taking away the talents of both McLaren drivers, may also explain how McLaren has managed to go from having 0 victories, only 9 podium finishes, and 13 race retirements for the entire 2006 season to already having 5 victories, 16 podium finishes, and no race retriements in just 10 races.

If I recall correctly, Ferrari had a particularly disastrous 2005 season, with their best performance of the season coming from the farcical U.S. Grand Prix. And while Ferrari wasn't under investigation for swiping team documents at the time like McLaren is now, they still came back and almost won both championships.
At the same time, one could also argue that much of McLaren's dismal 2006 season could be attributed to inability to sort out problems with the new V8 engines, so you could say that if they got that turned around everything would be great.

So no, McLaren most certainly was not improving by the end of 2006. In fact, one could easily argue the point that they were actually getting worse.

At no other point had McLaren finished 2 back to back races without at least one car failing. Both cars finished both of the final races of the season without problems. That's what Kylehnat meant, I believe.

Besides a very noticeable improvement in McLaren's performance from last year, and especially the end of last year to this year. I think the thing that looks the most suspicious is how exceptionally reliable their car has all of a sudden become, while at the same time extremely competitive.

They had 5 months to work on the relibaility problem that they arguably already had solved before the 2006 season was finished. Maybe they did use the Ferrari technical data (assuming that they did in fact have it before April). Then again, maybe they found out their problems themselves.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

In Japan, neither Kimi nor Pedro even made it to Q3, and Kimi finished 5th, tying his worst finish of the year (excluding the 6 DNF's, mostly all from mechanical failures).


Besides a very noticeable improvement in McLaren's performance from last year, and especially the end of last year to this year. I think the thing that looks the most suspicious is how exceptionally reliable their car has all of a sudden become, while at the same time extremely competitive. They had 13 DNF's last year, almost all from mechanical failures plaguing all three McLaren drivers. One thing Ferrari's are famous for is reliability while remaining very competitive.

Some things to note:
-Four of Kimi's DNFs were due to a collision/crash. The one in Monaco was due to a heat shield failure and in China the engine failed. But of course that doesn't take into account the non-race failures.
-So, if you look just at Kimi's reliability in 2006, it wasn't far off of Michael's with the Ferrari.
-In 2005, McLaren were more reliable than Ferrari.
-In 2007, the 19,000 RPM rule was brought into play.
-McLaren's main problem was with engines.
-Ferrari themselves haven't been perfectly reliable since the end of the 2006 season.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Some things to note:
-Four of Kimi's DNFs were due to a collision/crash. The one in Monaco was due to a heat shield failure and in China the engine failed. But of course that doesn't take into account the non-race failures.

McLaren had 13 DNFs, 6 were mechanical. Considering the remaining 7 DNFs happened very early in those races, one must also consider that any number of those could have also ended with a mechanical failure, as McLaren's had a habit of having mechanical problems starting at about halfway through a race. And as you pointed out, these are just their race failures. There is no telling how many mechanical failures McLaren may have had during testing and practice sessions.

-So, if you look just at Kimi's reliability in 2006, it wasn't far off of Michael's with the Ferrari.

Actually it was far off, but much more to the point, we are discussing the teams, and yes McLaren was even farther off from Ferrari in 2006 in every aspect:

Ferrari 2006:  9 Wins  19 Podiums   4 DNFs (1 Mechanical) 201 Constructor's Points
McLaren 2006:  0 Wins   9 Podiums  13 DNFs (6 Mechanical) 110 Constructor's Points

McLaren's main problem was with engines.

Actually, of the 6 DNF's caused by a mechanical failure, only two were from engine failures.

If I recall correctly, Ferrari had a particularly disastrous 2005 season

By Ferrari standards, but not by McLaren standards, as you'll see later on in this post.

And while Ferrari wasn't under investigation for swiping team documents at the time like McLaren is now, they still came back and almost won both championships.

And yet even that doesn't come close to the turn around at McLaren:

Ferrari 2005:  1 Wins   9 Podiums   8 DNFs (2 Mechanical)
10 Races '06:  3 Wins   9 Podiums   2 DNFs (0 Mechanical)
 
McLaren 2006:  0 Wins   9 Podiums  13 DNFs (6 Mechanical)
10 Races '07:  5 Wins  16 Podiums   0 DNFs (0 Mechanical)

Ferrari: +2 Wins +0 Podiums - 6 DNFs (-2 Mechanical)
McLaren: +5 Wins +7 Podiums -13 DNFs (-6 Mechanical)

McLaren
Last  10 Races '06:  0 Wins   4 Podiums  8 DNFs (3 Mechanical)  51 Contructor's Points
First 10 Races '07:  5 Wins  16 Podiums  0 DNFs (0 Mechanical) 138 Contructor's Points

                    +5 Wins +12 Podiums -8 DNFs (-3 Mechanical) +87 Contructor's Points

Not only was Ferrari having a better year in 2005 compared to McLaren in 2006, but Ferrari's performance in the first ten races of 2006 falls well short of what McLaren has managed to pull off in 2007. Comparing these two scenarios only makes what McLaren has done over the off-season all the more remarkable... especially as they have done this with a rookie and a brand new driver to the team, although as I said, they are both clearly excellent drivers, and one being a proven and defending champion, but Ferrari had Schumacher, and years of experience working directly with him on constantly tweaking the cars.

At the same time, one could also argue that much of McLaren's dismal 2006 season could be attributed to inability to sort out problems with the new V8 engines, so you could say that if they got that turned around everything would be great.

First of all, McLaren was having all sorts of problems in addition to their engine, like electrical, fuel pump, and throttle problems. You can speculate on a lot of things, but then again, if the engine was to blame, they apparently didn't get it worked out for the entire year, and some how managed to get it worked out before this season in test sessions and no actual race time. Anything is possible, but that doesn't make it very likely.

At no other point had McLaren finished 2 back to back races without at least one car failing. Both cars finished both of the final races of the season without problems. That's what Kylehnat meant, I believe.

First of all what Kylehnat specifically said was "Towards the end of last year, McLaren was getting back on the program, and weren't too far behind Renault and Ferrari.". The simple fact is that they were not, and I think you are grasping at straws by focusing on one small positive, and that's the fact that the cars lasted through the final two races, but at the same time they finished with the lowest finishes of both driver's season records. When you compare the first half of their season to the second it also clearly shows no sign of improvement, especially with three mechanical failures in the second half, two just before there glorious two race streak of no DNFs. I mean really, that in itself just shows how bad a season McLaren had when someone suggests that not having a DNF for two straight races is a highlight to a season.

They had 5 months to work on the reliability problem that they arguably already had solved before the 2006 season was finished. Maybe they did use the Ferrari technical data (assuming that they did in fact have it before April). Then again, maybe they found out their problems themselves.

I already said that maybe they did... maybe.

However, considering the dramatic differences in the performance of McLaren from last year to now, and that they already have been found guilty of having access to hundreds of pages of Ferrari technical data, the probability that they did somehow manage to solve all their problems on their own in such a short period of time between seasons seems very slim at best.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

McLaren had 13 DNFs, 6 were mechanical.

I only have 5 non-driver caused retirements.

Kimi's heat shield failed in Monaco. Then, his engine failed in China.

Montoya's engine failed in the European GP.

De la Rosa had a fuel pump failure in the German GP and then an engine failure in the Italian GP.


I agree that there is a possibility their turn-around is due to the "stolen" data. But I still think that it's entirely possible that it was done without it or at least with very little use of it, especially if Alonso was as motivated as he said he was to win with another team. Just look at their situation going from 2004 to 2005: 69 points in '04 and then 182 in '05.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

The sixth that you are missing is Montoya's DNF in Australia on lap 46 due to electrical problems.

Malaysia_: Kimi Räikkönen____: DNF: _0 Laps: Accident
Australia: Juan Pablo Montoya: DNF: 46 Laps: Electrical
Europe___: Juan Pablo Montoya: DNF: 52 Laps: Engine
Spain____: Juan Pablo Montoya: DNF: 17 Laps: Spin
Monaco___: Kimi Räikkönen____: DNF: 50 Laps: Heat shield fire
Canada___: Juan Pablo Montoya: DNF: 13 Laps: Accident
USA______: Kimi Räikkönen____: DNF: _0 Laps: Accident
USA______: Juan Pablo Montoya: DNF: _0 Laps: Accident
Germany__: Pedro de la Rosa__: DNF: _2 Laps: Fuel Pump
Hungary__: Kimi Räikkönen____: DNF: 25 Laps: Accident
Turkey___: Kimi Räikkönen____: DNF: _1 Laps: Accident
Italy____: Pedro de la Rosa__: DNF: 20 Laps: Engine
China____: Kimi Räikkönen____: DNF: 18 Laps: Throttle

2007? 0 DNFs.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The sixth that you are missing is Montoya's DNF in Australia on lap 46 due to electrical problems.

2007? 0 DNFs.

That one happened after Montoya went off-track.


0 DNFs, but they weren't/aren't completely bulletproof. Alonso had his troubles in France. And I believe Hamilton's car also had some troubles, but they didn't affect his qualifying or race.

Also, the MP4-22 was good from the beginning of the season and the case centers around receiving Ferrari's technical information at the end of April. It was stated in early July that McLaren would allow the FIA if they wanted to review their cars to make sure the info wasn't used.

I don't think it's that extraordinary to have a turn-around like McLaren did, especially if they have the money and are expected to be up in the front. As I noted before, look at them from the 2004 to the 2005 season. Or look at Honda at the end of last season and compare them to now.

 

[Blake]

Just one thing to note, guys, McLaren-Mercedes are in the best financial position they have ever been in during their entire history. Money means a lot.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Right, because after all, there are no examples of wealthy individuals and teams that cheat, or any examples where no amount of money thrown at a project can make that much of a difference.

However, I have not said nor have I yet to hear anyone else saying it isn't possible McLaren did this dramatic performance and reliability swing off season without breaking any rules or using information from Nigel Stepney. After all, just about anything is possible without knowing all the facts.

However, the facts we do know when combined with the actual fact that they were found guilty of possessing an immense amount of Ferrari technical data, certainly makes it appear much more likely they did go outside the rules and get 'outside' help.

Yes, anything is possible, but the difference here is McLaren was actually caught with a tremendous amount of Ferrari technical data, and as has been speculated, it is very unlikely F1 would ever punish McLaren for this considering how much money F1 would stand to lose if this happened.

Personally, if this is the case, I'm OK with it as it has resulted in a close competitive championship among four excellent drivers. 👍