Spy row to cost McLaren big time?

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But in the end Coughlan said that he had shown the technical documents to several McLaren team members, all of which told him to burn it. As far as I&#8217;m concerned the information in his affidavit is enough to clear the McLaren team of using those Ferrari documents to assist their development.

Besides which, as ROAD_DOGG33J correctly states, the MP4/22 was designed long before this entire saga came up. Any Ferrari technical documents aren&#8217;t much use to McLaren in terms of development since the car had long-since been designed, including a planned development cycle.

Also, Mercedes were the only engine manufacturers who made a significant gain in terms of horsepower during the homologation process. They were said to have gained some 50bhp, while other teams were only able to break-even. The McLaren V8 has also been significantly more reliable than it&#8217;s V10 counterpart. Remembering that the 19,000rpm rev-limit is in place for 2007 it is not surprising that McLaren have seen more reliability than in the past.

They also coped exceptionally well with the change to Bridgestone tyres.

Anyway, McLaren have a recent history of huge performance swings year-on-year. ;)
 
OK. ;)

Anything is possible, but for what facts are known, not likely. I certainly wouldn't be clinging on to what Coughlan claims happened, after all, if they told him to burn them and he didn't... that adds even more questions than answers.
 
As far as I'm concerned, McLaren should be disqualified from the season. Rules are rules, if you brake them you should be punished. Simple as that.

I had the same argument with Lee 'Bee' Davidson a few days ago about whether to blame Coughlan or Stepney, but as far as I can see, pure logic swings 100% in favor of Coughlan. Stepney just waved the bait under his nose, Coughlan must have known that had he been caught the whole team would suffer, and he risked all of it.

If I said to you; "I'll give you 10 million dollars - tax free, cash - but if you are caught with it or caught spending it, I will murder everyone you love."...

Would you be stupid enough to take it?


Even if the dossier didn't help develop this seasons car, I'm sure there would be plenty of information on new parts that McLaren could save plenty of time not having to research for the rest of the season, giving them a massive lead over Ferrari.
 
If I said to you; "I'll give you 10 million dollars - tax free, cash - but if you are caught with it or caught spending it, I will murder everyone you love."...

I don't think Stepney threatened Coughlan.


I know if I was an engineer with a team, I would be curious about what other teams are doing. Maybe I would take it, maybe I wouldn't. But that's me and if I did, I wouldn't send it with my wife to get photocopied.
 
I don't think Stepney threatened Coughlan.


I know if I was an engineer with a team, I would be curious about what other teams are doing. Maybe I would take it, maybe I wouldn't. But that's me and if I did, I wouldn't send it with my wife to get photocopied.

All the teams have been spying on eachother to some extent or other for many years. Lotus made a huge point of hiding the secret of their ground effects 78s and 79s. They even encouraged rumours stating that the performance advantage was all down to some trick new diff, and used to put a cover over the diff to hide it from other teams when the car was in the pitlane.

More recently, the cars would vanish into the pit garage whenever they weren't on the track, and the door would be closed behind them, to stop rivals from getting a peek. This only stopped when the FIA enforced an open pit door policy. They copy eachother all the time. In 1989 Tyrell developed a car with a raised nose. Now they all have it. Radiator intakes used to be rectangular. Now more and more of them are becoming triangular. All the aerodynamic bits you see added to one car or another make it on to all the cars sooner or later... if they work. The internals are harder to copy, but I'd bet that the best engineers spend as much time studying the rival cars as they spend with their own car.

That's all a bit different to stealing someone's technical data, but only because it can't be controlled. Coughlin probably did it for the same reason most people take risks... they think that they will get away with it.

Still wrong, but if a driver is punished alone for an infringement, I don't see why a whole team should be punished for one engineer's dishonesty. The FIA did, after all, conclude that there is no evidence that the car itself has benefitted from the information.
 
At least that was the "official" conclusion, but as has been speculated, no matter how much they may have really benefited from that and possibly other Ferrari data, there was very little chance the FIA was going to punish McLaren or their drivers. The cost to F1 would have simply been far too great.
 
At least that was the "official" conclusion, but as has been speculated, no matter how much they may have really benefited from that and possibly other Ferrari data, there was very little chance the FIA was going to punish McLaren or their drivers. The cost to F1 would have simply been far too great.
Tell that to Ferrari ... and Italy as a whole.
 
Taken from ITV-F1.com
News
Ferrari ponders further action in spy case

Ferrari is considering appealing against the FIA’s decision not to impose a penalty on McLaren in the spying case.

The World Motor Sport Council ruled last Thursday that McLaren had contravened article 151c of Formula 1’s sporting code because its chief designer Mike Coughlan possessed confidential Ferrari technical documents.

But it deemed there was “insufficient evidence” that the team had used or benefited from the information to warrant any kind of penalty.

Ferrari was deeply aggrieved at the verdict, describing it as “incomprehensible” that McLaren could be found guilty as charged and yet escape without sanction.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has warned that “the story will not end here” and, in a lengthy response published on the team’s website, CEO Jean Todt said the team “does not rule out” further action in addition to the ongoing legal cases against Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan in Italy and England.

“This decision remains very disappointing and surprising,” Todt said.

“It is not acceptable to create a precedent in such an important case in which the guilty verdict for serious and persistent violation of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not automatically incur a penalty.

“For our part, we will press on with the legal actions currently taking place in Italy and in England, and we do not rule out taking further action.”

Todt said the fact McLaren that questioned Ferrari’s compliance with the bodywork regulations at the start of the season and called for a clarification of the rules was attributable to inside knowledge of his team’s designs.

And he claimed the more stringent bodywork deflection tests subsequently introduced – which were believed to hurt Ferrari more than other teams – showed that McLaren had gained an advantage even if it had not incorporated Ferrari designs on its own car.

“During [the WMSC] meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney,” said Todt.

“Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, the McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over ‘some cars’.

“Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours.

“It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren.”

Todt argued that possession of leaked information was sufficient grounds for a penalty, and said it was unreasonable for the burden of proof to lie with Ferrari.

“As confirmed in that decision yesterday, the violation was already there in the simple possession of the information, which in itself constitutes an enormous advantage in a sport like Formula 1,” he said.

“In Ferrari’s opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding.

“It remains incomprehensible that apart from possession, one must also demonstrate the effective and visible use of this information on the McLaren car.

“Actually, this very same fact, on the basis of available information which the FIA used to find McLaren guilty, shows that the offence lies in the possession without the need to prove anything else.

“The proof is there and this led to the FIA’s decision. Therefore I find it difficult to understand how the verdict makes sense.

“Furthermore, I have to say that the proof of effective use requested by the FIA is impossible for Ferrari to furnish, because of course, Ferrari does not have access to the McLaren car.”

Todt accused McLaren boss Ron Dennis of reneging on an understanding they had reached to establish a better working relationship between the two arch-rival teams.

“A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority,” Todt said.

“I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren.

“There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9th June last.

“Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the emails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us.

“So, on the one hand, they had come to say ‘let us trust one another’, and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement.”

-----------------------------------

Ferrari make a very vaild point I do think this is far from over
 
.... so the stolen evidence proved that Ferrari knew that their own bodywork did not comply with regulations, and they are now upset that McLaren may have used that to "blunt their performance" by indirectly forcing them to make the car compliant? :dunce:

How can he invoke "sporting honesty" in the the very same statement?

Pot, kettle, black, etc.

Are any of the other teams saying anything at all?
 
see Ferrari's cars passed the test at Melbourne they test the cars for illegal parts all every race , I'm sure each team has its own hidden secrets small things , I do believe McMerc wouldn't have known about this floor thing unless they have had some data , as I'm sure you can't see the floor from races ...etc which actually proves that manegment in McMerc have used the data
 
Does it work on the basis of innocent until proven guilty (though they were guilty of owning the data it wasn't proven that they used it to their advantage)? If so then it has to be proved that McLaren used this data.
Anyway, Ferrari get their appeal even though the FIA don't do appeals, normally;
bbc.co.uk
Formula One's ruling body the FIA has reopened the Ferrari spying controversy by sending the verdict not to punish McLaren to its court of appeal.

FIA president Max Mosley said the move was because of "the importance of public confidence in the outcome".

Mosley was responding to a letter from the Italian motorsport authority the CSAI expressing its unease at the decision not to punish McLaren.

The CSAI wrote that Ferrari should be given the right to present a full case.
 
Seems to me like "public confidence in the outcome" is going to suffer no matter what they do (or don't do).
 
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