Standard Aero?

[killerjimbag]

That's fine, but something as vague and subjective as 'feel' doesn't help anyone like testing and lap times would.

Regardless of the track and choice of controller (though wheels can be more consistant), with an honest effort against your ghost, a car with the splitter, canards, and diffuser (without a wing) will put down the same lap times as it would without them. Likewise, that car with the splitter, canards, and diffuser (with a wing) will put down the same lap times as it would with only the wing.

Once you put a wing onto the car, even fixed front aero numbers have a value assigned to them (Aventador, R35, 458, McLaren F1, etc.). Add or remove a splitter, canards, and / or diffuser, and there's no change in the numbers. There's no change in the lap times.

I didn't want to believe the placebo effect. Aero parts ahould do aero stuff. That's what they do for crying out loud. But I've put down laps against my ghosts until I was blue in the face. Everything -- braking, turn-in, cornering and top speeds, etc. -- is the same. There's no additional aero drag or grip. But they look cool.

Somewhere in the annals of GTP is a buried thread about this very same thing with similar conclusions.

The value of zero,remains zero.Therefor it does nothing!Unless math has changed in the last 24 hours this subject is dead.

 

[Lock2Lock]

The value of zero,remains zero.Therefor it does nothing!

So what you are saying, is that a fixed aerodynamic part should change the value of the front downforce? No, it doesn't have to. Just because it doesn't change a number, doesn't mean it doesn't affect the car.

Once again.

Try them on the premium Mazda RX7 Spirit R. If you don't feel the slight difference between having them on the car and not having them on the car, then you don't pay close enough attention to what your car is doing.

What I was talking about far as the DS3 vs wheel point I made above, is that you don't have that extra feeling of what that is doing.

All of those parts are not for cosmetic use, they actually do something.

They do have a effect on the handling, but it is a slight difference just like in real life. Go try it yourself. I can't show you feeling, you have to feel it yourself. So don't ask me to find a video or try to prove it to you, because it is impossible to prove feel.

Also those parts wouldn't have that much of a effect on the lap times.

 

[killerjimbag]

So what you are saying, is that a fixed aerodynamic part should change the value of the front downforce? No, it doesn't have to. Just because it doesn't change a number, doesn't mean it doesn't affect the car.

Once again.

Really?I don't want to get technical but ok.To use a line from EA Sports,if it's in the game it's in the game,does not equate to GT5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle

 

[Lock2Lock]

Really?I don't want to get technical but ok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle

It doesn't have to change the number to show it actually does something.

Not always will it affect lap times. You are not getting the point at all. Go try what I said above. It will have a minor affect on the car's front grip.

Also you forget that the front aerodynamic parts are listed for the front bumper on the tuning menu and not the side, so the your point of it changing a number isn't really valid.

 

[Sum1s2pid]

So what you are saying, is that a fixed aerodynamic part should change the value of the front downforce? No, it doesn't have to. Just because it doesn't change a number, doesn't mean it doesn't affect the car.

That's kind of the point behind them.

Also those parts wouldn't have that much of a effect on the lap times.

Outside of the game, the combination of splitters, canards, and diffusers have a huge effect on lap times. Here, they have none.

 

[killerjimbag]

it doesn't have to change the number to show it actually does something.

Not always will it affect lap times. You are not getting the point at all. Go try what i said above. It will have a minor affect on the car's front grip.

Also you forget that the front aerodynamic parts are listed for the front bumper on the tuning menu and not the side, so the your point of it changing a number isn't really valid.

zero 🤬 Given!!!

 

[Lock2Lock]

zero 🤬 Given!!!

Nice attitude man. Nice to see you quote another thing you know nothing about. My user comment is one of those things that you know nothing about, so don't try to prove your point with it. Shows nice maturity there .

If you are not even going to try what I am telling you, do me a favor, don't try to prove me wrong. I'm trying to actually contribute and help you get a better understanding of something in the game, and you come back at me with childish remarks? Really makes me want to take you or your points seriously.


Grow up. Until you do, I will no longer pay you any attention.

 

[killerjimbag]

Nice attitude man. Nice to see you quote another thing you know nothing about. My user comment is one of those things that you know nothing about, so don't try to prove your point with it. Shows nice maturity there .

If you are not even going to try what I am telling you, do me a favor, don't try to prove me wrong. I'm trying to actually contribute and help you get a better understanding of something in the game, and you come back at me with childish remarks? Really makes me want to take you or your points seriously.


Grow up. Until you do, I will no longer pay you any attention.

I have given you data and facts that equate to something that doesn't exist in this game.If in fact you actually read the links I provided maybe you would understand.So I, as well as others,have proven you wrong. I am pretty sure that I understand what actually occurs in this game and what actually translates into reality. I believe if we all look back on this thread, you are the one that misread the original OP's question.So please no longer do me the favour of your rebuttals.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I have given you data and facts that equate to something that doesn't exist in this game.If in fact you actually read the links I provided maybe you would understand.So I have proven you wrong, as well as others.I am pretty sure that I understand what actually occurs in this game and what actually translates into reality. I believe if we all look back on this thread, you are the one that misread the original OP's question.So please no longer do me the favour of your rebuttals.

You still haven't proven me wrong, and yes I read the links. I understand how downforce works. You are still not getting what I was trying to show you, in fact you still won't even give it a honest try. You keep beating around the bush and posting things trying to get under my skin (only proving your own ignorance and immaturity).

Go try what I said before. That particular car demonstrates exactly what I am saying.

Yeah, sure I missunderstood the OP, which you pointed out. I said let's move on and drop it, but you guys continued to keep this discussion going.

You continue to try to disprove what I am saying, which you still haven't.

Go take that RX7, put those side aerodynamic parts on the car, then drive it and pay attention to the way it handles. I never said it was completely on par with real life, but you stating it doesn't have any effect is completely false.

So once again, don't try to turn this around on me. I am not the one that tried to keep this conversation going.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

A good example of diffuser effect on 2 same model car in GT5 is R34 GTR '99 vs R34 GTR Vspec II variant. The vanilla 1st gen R34 GTR has no front ground effect plate and no rear diffuser = more tail happy than R34 Vspec : which has front ground effect underplate and rear diffuser. Try both stock on comfort tires at Autumn Ring, you should feel the difference, albeit only minor.

 

[killerjimbag]

A good example of diffuser effect on 2 same model car in GT5 is R34 GTR '99 vs R34 GTR Vspec II variant. The vanilla 1st gen R34 GTR has no front ground effect plate and no rear diffuser = more tail happy than R34 Vspec : which has front ground effect underplate and rear diffuser. Try both stock on comfort tires at Autumn Ring, you should feel the difference, albeit only minor.

Did the test with the RX7,actually faster by .105 without front,no difference with my wheel.Racing softs,real grip,fast tire wear ABS 1 on Monza.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Did the test with the RX7,actually faster by .105 without front,no difference with my wheel.Racing softs,real grip,fast tire wear ABS 1 on Monza.

I don't think that kind of test will be able to prove anything. You can't use lap times with so many variables during the lap, mistakes, tire wear etc.

 

[JK83]

I just did one jump with and without on route x and I can't see any difference on air angles.

My opininion is, if those somehow affect downforce you could realy see it speeds what I used.

I can share car if someone else want try.

 

[Exorcet]

So we can beat this like a dead horse,if these were used properly we would have the effect that they were intended too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuser_(automotive)

They're not diffusers.

That's fine, but something as vague and subjective as 'feel' doesn't help anyone like testing and lap times would.

Exactly. Feel doesn't prove much. Facts are, the front number doesn't go above zero, the aero model is extremely basic, and even the rear wings barely do anything. It would take something substantial to really prove that those front aero parts aren't just ornaments.

I didn't want to believe the placebo effect. Aero parts ahould do aero stuff. That's what they do for crying out loud.

I feel the same.

But I've put down laps against my ghosts until I was blue in the face. Everything -- braking, turn-in, cornering and top speeds, etc. -- is the same. There's no additional aero drag or grip. But they look cool.

I feel the same.

Try them on the premium Mazda RX7 Spirit R.

Done, I put aero on just about anything. All my "project" cars in my favorites have aero, or at least most do. I've been trying to make use of them since the game came out. That's years of use. I still can't find an effect. No difference in feel, no difference in performance, no change in things like angle during a jump, nothing.

If you want to convince people, you need a solid test.

If you don't feel the slight difference between having them on the car and not having them on the car, then you don't pay close enough attention to what your car is doing.

This isn't proof, it's not fact, it's not helping.

They do have a effect on the handling, but it is a slight difference just like in real life.

I'm an aero engineer. These parts don't know the meaning of slight. You get slight differences from changes you can't really see. Canards on the front of the car can make a car go from docile to undriveable.

Now granted, the GT ones could be complete garbage or have holes in them, or something, but they could just as easily do nothing. The rear wings, which have an effect, don't work right anyway.

Go try it yourself. I can't show you feeling, you have to feel it yourself. So don't ask me to find a video or try to prove it to you, because it is impossible to prove feel.

It's impossible for feel to prove anything. That's the problem. Yes, we should ask for video or proof, because that's all that will work. It's not harassment or heckling. You're doing it wrong if you're using a feel argument. That just means you might not actually know.

So what you are saying, is that a fixed aerodynamic part should change the value of the front downforce? No, it doesn't have to.

But it works for the rear. Why shouldn't it for the front? A bit suspicious.

Just because it doesn't change a number, doesn't mean it doesn't affect the car.

But the strangeness needs some explaining.

Also those parts wouldn't have that much of a effect on the lap times.

With what is in GT Auto, alone, you should be able to nuke the laptimes of the stock car. You don't even have to visit the tuning shop.

 

[Lock2Lock]

They're not diffusers.

Exactly. Feel doesn't prove much. Facts are, the front number doesn't go above zero, the aero model is extremely basic, and even the rear wings barely do anything. It would take something substantial to really prove that those front aero parts aren't just ornaments.

I feel the same.

I feel the same.

Done, I put aero on just about anything. All my "project" cars in my favorites have aero, or at least most do. I've been trying to make use of them since the game came out. That's years of use. I still can't find an effect. No difference in feel, no difference in performance, no change in things like angle during a jump, nothing.

If you want to convince people, you need a solid test.

This isn't proof, it's not fact, it's not helping.

I'm an aero engineer. These parts don't know the meaning of slight. You get slight differences from changes you can't really see. Canards on the front of the car can make a car go from docile to undriveable.

Now granted, the GT ones could be complete garbage or have holes in them, or something, but they could just as easily do nothing. The rear wings, which have an effect, don't work right anyway.

It's impossible for feel to prove anything. That's the problem. Yes, we should ask for video or proof, because that's all that will work. It's not harassment or heckling. You're doing it wrong if you're using a feel argument. That just means you might not actually know.

But it works for the rear. Why shouldn't it for the front? A bit suspicious.

But the strangeness needs some explaining.

With what is in GT Auto, alone, you should be able to nuke the laptimes of the stock car. You don't even have to visit the tuning shop.

The reason the number doesn't change, is because there isn't a side aerodynamic adjustment. It isn't the front bumper, so it isn't listed. So once again, just because the number doesn't change, doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. That argument is completely invalid.

It will affect the feel of the car, I honestly do not understand how you can't feel it. The whole point of these things are to help front grip, which it does do.

There isn't a way to show feel through a video. You have to feel it yourself, it takes a while to actually notice it. On GT5 the pitch while flying in the air will not change with this. It might with the front bumper, but not those side aerodynamic parts.

Good you realize you can get results out of things you can't see. Sure, on a LPM car if it didn't have them, the steering would become total crap.

Maybe you are a aero engineer, but this wouldn't be the first time we have had a discussion like this that you didn't want to believe something was simulated in GT5. Let's not forget the turbo lag discussion. You comparing a turbo to a windmill and denied turbo lag existing, when that was as clear as day that it exists. That was visible, and you could feel it. You can't show feeling, so a video of this is pointless to try to do.

You haven't been focusing enough on it to feel the difference. It isn't a big difference, it is a matter of feeling. Why would you even put the part on the car in the first place, if you believed it doesn't do anything?

"But it works for the rear. Why shouldn't it for the front? A bit suspicious."
Why keep going on and on about a number not changing? It is not on the very front of the car, it is on the sides, so why would it have to change a number for the front splitter/bumper? It doesn't have to.

 

[Exorcet]

The reason the number doesn't change, is because there isn't a side aerodynamic adjustment. It isn't the front bumper, so it isn't listed. So once again, just because the number doesn't change, doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. That argument is completely invalid.

This has nothing to do with my argument. That the numbers don't change is not proof. It is something that goes against the claim that these parts do something though. But to be sure, we need to look for something else.

Also, these parts are on the front of the car. That they're labeled side in GT Auto doesn't have to mean anything.

Also, the front splitters, which also do nothing don't add to front downforce. Rear diffusers don't add to rear downforce either.

It will affect the feel of the car, I honestly do not understand how you can't feel it. The whole point of these things are to help front grip, which it does do.

Rear wings add drag. It's what they do. They didn't in GT5 until the game was quite old. So whatever they do in real life doesn't serve as proof in GT.

There isn't a way to show feel through a video.

Feel is a waste of time.

You have to feel it yourself, it takes a while to actually notice it. On GT5 the pitch while flying in the air will not change with this. It might with the front bumper, but not those side aerodynamic parts.

Time since the game came out is a while, I haven't noticed. Also, it wouldn't take that long. All you'd have to do is run with them on/off then go to full speed and turn. Or take a fast jump. You should literally be able to find the difference in one lap.

Good you realize you can get results out of things you can't see. Sure, on a LPM car if it didn't have them, the steering would become total crap.

Type of car doesn't matter, these parts are not limited to small effects, and if what they look like is any indication, these are serious parts.

Maybe you are a aero engineer, but this wouldn't be the first time we have had a discussion like this that you didn't want to believe something was simulated in GT5. Let's not forget the turbo lag discussion.

Yes I remember. GT5 turbo lag is as fake as functional canards.

You comparing a turbo to a windmill and denied turbo lag existing, when that was as clear as day that it exists.

I repeatedly showed that it doesn't exist along with Toronado, here is the thread (well one of them, lag has bee proven false many times):

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=268442

Turbo lag and functional front aero do not exist in GT5

That was visible, and you could feel it. You can't show feeling, so a video of this is pointless to try to do.

It was neither, and when video was posted it became clear.

You haven't been focusing enough on it to feel the difference. It isn't a big difference, it is a matter of feeling. Why would you even put the part on the car in the first place, if you believed it doesn't do anything?

Repeated testing and because it makes it easier to distinguish cars.

"But it works for the rear. Why shouldn't it for the front? A bit suspicious."
Why keep going on and on about a number not changing? It is not on the very front of the car, it is on the sides, so why would it have to change a number for the front splitter/bumper? It doesn't have to.

It doesn't have to, that's right. It should though. It very much should. It's at the front of the car. It's ahead of the cg. It's ahead of the front wheels. How much more front can it get?

I could see if we have side wings, then yes, it wouldn't make sense to change the front downforce (though it would be odd if there was no side downforce number, or if that number didn't change with additional parts). However, the canards are very clearly at the front of the car, and they have (in real life) the impact you expect from front downforce.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Do me a favor.

Go buy the Premium 2008 Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34).

Buy one with and one with the front extention part (not the bumper splitter, the "extension" part). Do not buy anything else. Go to Suzuka Circuit East Course.

Put racing line on and try to follow it or just try to stay to the inside.

Note-
No aids including no ABS
Brake Bias-
Front- 1
Rear- 0

I am doing this as we speak just to make sure I am right. I am on my G27 and even the FFB changes dramatically between the two cars.
You are seriously with a straight face going to tell me that it doesn't do anything? The car feels totally different.

Go try it. I am telling you for a fact you are wrong. Same as you are about the turbo lag.

 

[Exorcet]

Well I'll do better. I'll do the thing you suggest. Then I'll tune it to the max (but only with front aero) and go to SSR7 (I don't have X) and see if I can get it to oversteer more at 200+ mph. That's a much better test.

Then I might hit the Cape Ring jump.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Well I'll do better. I'll do the thing you suggest. Then I'll tune it to the max (but only with front aero) and go to SSR7 (I don't have X) and see if I can get it to oversteer more at 200+ mph. That's a much better test.

Then I might hit the Cape Ring jump.

I get what you mean. I am just stating that it does make a difference. It may be one of those things that GT fails at simulating on par with real life. I am just trying to help you understand that it does in fact have a effect.

 

[Sum1s2pid]

I get what you mean. I am just stating that it does make a difference. It may be one of those things that GT fails at simulating on par with real life. I am just trying to help you understand that it does in fact have a effect.

While I want to admire your steadfastness and believe otherwise, there is too much that suggests that any combination of those parts do absolutely nothing. Hopefully this is something that's addressed in future iterations of the game.

 

[Lock2Lock]

While I want to admire your steadfastness and believe otherwise, there is too much that suggests that any combination of those parts do absolutely nothing. Hopefully this is something that's addressed in future iterations of the game.

Just because you do not believe that it doesn't have a effect, doesn't make it fact. It does have a effect in the game. Maybe not on par with real life, but does have a effect. If you can't feel the differences between one without it and one with it, the problem is you (no offense). I am not stating it is on par with real life, I am simply stating it does have a effect.

I am still amazed that after how long this game has been out, some people do not know this.

 

[killerjimbag]

Can I ask why this is still going, when the conversation now, has actually nothing to do with the original OP's question?

 

[Bo]

I bet you all hate me for starting this thread now

 

[JK83]

I bet you all hate me for starting this thread now

Maybe you should edit op bit and add poll does that affect ?
I tested it but some reason got ignored

 

[Bo]

I think it might just cause more arguments, and I have a pretty good idea of what would come out on top. NOTE - This does not mean though that I am taking a side in this argument, I want to stay out of this and avoid any long winded posts on why my ideas are stupid and pathetic and worthless

 

[JK83]

I think it might just cause more arguments, and I have a pretty good idea of what would come out on top. NOTE - This does not mean though that I am taking a side in this argument, I want to stay out of this and avoid any long winded posts on why my ideas are stupid and pathetic and worthless

Not arguments just nice discussion

 

[killerjimbag]

I bet you all hate me for starting this thread now

Nope not at all.

 

[Sum1s2pid]

Can I ask why this is still going, when the conversation now, has actually nothing to do with the original OP's question?

I bet you all hate me for starting this thread now

Nah, it's a natural extension of the original topic. Can you fit aero parts on the car? Yes! Do they work? Mreowr-ftt-ftt!

Just because you do not believe that it doesn't have a effect, doesn't make it fact. It does have a effect in the game. Maybe not on par with real life, but does have a effect. If you can't feel the differences between one without it and one with it, the problem is you (no offense). I am not stating it is on par with real life, I am simply stating it does have a effect.

I am still amazed that after how long this game has been out, some people do not know this.

No offense taken, I just find it odd that you're stating your claim as fact, when nothing supports it, beyond "trust me, you can feel it". I want these parts to have an effect on the car. Nothing backs up that they do.

 

[rosckolove]

They have no effect on aero. Its visual. Some very very fast guys have stated such things, they would be the ones to trust.

I think the effect you are feeling is the placebo effect.

 

[killerjimbag]

After doing some more tests it doesn't work.
Remember puff,puff,pass.
That's the only effect I'm getting LOL