Starting a War on Xmas or a War on Free Speech?

[Stevisiov]

That clip just made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[Pupik]

Seasoned reason is the reason for the season.

 

[FoolKiller]

Those guys have it easy.

These guys need real help.

 

[bevo]

A wise man once told me, "Never speak about politics or religion to someone that doesn't agree with you, It always turns out ugly, and neither of you are either right or wrong."

I have tried to listen to this advice for the last few years. Before I did this, it caused me various problems at work, with people I liked before the topics surfaced. Now I can't even talk to those people because of the respect I lost for them, based on some of their beliefs. I know each person is entitled to their own beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I have to like them. Since then, I just tell people my buddies theory, and it saves a lot of trouble. It does cause me to get some odd looks though, but they are never as bad as most of the conversations would have turned out.

They are both very interesting subjects though, and very hard to steer away from once you hear someone talking about it.

One thing is for certain though, fanatics are fanatics, and no matter what their subject is, it usually does more harm to their cause then good. Attacking someone else on their own turf never gives you good publicity. All it does is make you look like a bigot.

Look at how the world views the U.S.. Everyone thinks we are egotistical maniacs. No matter what we stick our nose in it usually ends up making us look bad, regardless of our intentions, or the outcome.

 

[niky]

I don't honestly know how I feel about this.

One the one hand, I've had a very strict Catholic upbringing. I take nativity scenes, icons and even the bloody corpse of Jesus Christ displayed in all its gory glory all over the place.

On the other hand, I'm not a firm believer in the Church or the Bible... I do leave open the possibility of the existence of God, since this is inherently unprovable, untestable and undisprovable, so I guess I'm an agnostic.

But I dislike any form of "hate" propaganda. And this just smacks of it... the "Be Good for Goodness' Sake", I can hang with... that's something everyone should do, and it's something both Jesus and Confucious can get along with... but seriously... putting an anti-religious slogan beside Baby Jesus? Do you really have nothing better to do with your time?

The nice thing about all this political correctness nonsense over the past few holiday seasons is it's a celebration of diversity of culture... attacking merely one facet of that culture in an effort to remove it smacks of censorship rather than an exercise in freedom of speech.

Strange, nobody's putting up the plaque beside churches, mosques or synagogues.

By the way, they used to sacrific virgins at the winter solstice. Served up their still-beating hearts with a side order of cranberry sauce. Damn atheists and their pagan ways.

 

[nk4e]

Growing up in a Catholic family, I never saw Christmas as to praise someone because of their birth. Though to bring families across states/nations to visit each other for the warmth and happiness. My dad always told me how I was lucky to have all this while there are my cousins that barely have any clothes. From time to time, he would send my stuff( sometimes my presents) to them during the winter season.

 

[Keef]

Christmas to me is a time to relax with friends and family and give gifts to each other. That's about it. If you want to praise Jesus, go ahead. If you don't, go ahead.

The only thing that I truly hate about Christmas is that people keep bitching about this crap. It's crap, and none of it matters, and all these fools are thinking too hard. If everyone would just shut their mouths and stay out of others' business we wouldn't have this problem.

Also, I'm a hypocrite because I just bitched about it. Fighting fire with fire, baby.

I like the fact that the governor lady of Washington simply walks past the signs--it shows that she doesn't give a damn. Because it's not worth giving a damn about. She doesn't care, as everyone else should do.

 

[mindwise]

Nice thread

A quick pointer wrt 'atheist' and 'agnostic', the two are not mutually exclusive, one deals with what you (don't) know (A)Gnostic.
The other with if you do (not) believe in god (A)Theist.

By far most atheists are 'agnostic atheists', meaning, they have no knowledge of god and they do not believe in god.
"I am agnostic" is not an answer to the question 'do you believe in god', so can i please ask all the agnostics to just admit you are in fact atheists.
(apart from the 'agnostic theists' of course, the ones that don't have any knowledge of god, but believe in god anyway).

Now, on to things that matter, how beliefs of one group affect other groups:

Since atheism is a lack of belief in god, they hold no particular belief that infringes on the rights of others.
Theists on the other hand DO have certain beliefs/doctrines, that is fine unless their beliefs infringe on the rights of other people, (like gay marriage, euthanasia, 'eligibility to hold office as an atheist' (yes there are states that try to prevent that), stem cell research prevention etc.

Can i please hear how that sign 'infringes' on the rights of christians?
I mean Niky, 'hate propaganda' what are you talking about?

The real hate is the where the religious political lobby works to impose their beliefs on others, that is where real infringement goes on, not mere words on a sign.


Yes, you guessed it, i am a 'devout' atheist, and i'm going to risk setting the discussion alight with 2 one liners

'If Christians don't want their beliefs to made fun of, they should not hold such funny beliefs'
'If atheism is belief system, bald is a hair color'.

 

[Joey D]

"I am agnostic" is not an answer to the question 'do you believe in god', so can i please ask all the agnostics to just admit you are in fact atheists.

No you can't because I am an agnostic, not an atheist. I think there is an equal chance of there being a supernatural being or beings as there not being anything at all. Religion or lack of religion is unknown and I'll find out what's true when I die.

I actually don't think anyone knows if there really is something out there or not. I consider myself a strong agnostic.

 

[mindwise]

No you can't because I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

That's fine, i am an agnostic too (and an atheist).
But please answer this question:

Do you believe in god?

Yes or no please (unless you want to claim you don't know what you believe).

 

[Sage]

No you can't because I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

But you probably live your life as if there is no God, which makes you an atheist. Although mindwise mostly hit the point, let me revise what he said a bit:

Agnosticism answers an epistemological question: Is it possible to be 100% sure whether or not there’s a God? This is different from asking whether you believe in God or not – it’s just a question about the nature of knowledge. An agnostic would answer the above question with No, while a non-agnostic would answer with Yes.

Atheism/theism then answers the question: How do you choose to live your life?

So: If you’re a non-agnostic atheist, that means you’re absolutely completely 100% sure there is no God. If you’re a non-agnostic Christian, you’re absolutely completely 100% sure there is a God. If you’re an agnostic atheist, you don’t believe it’s ever possible to be 100% positive of the non-existence of God, but you see zero evidence of God and therefore live your life with the assumption that there is no God. If you’re an agnostic Christian, you don’t believe it’s ever possible to be 100% positive of the existence of God, but you feel there’s enough evidence to assume that there is one and live your life accordingly.

 

[Joey D]

That's fine, i am an agnostic too (and an atheist).
But please answer this question:

Do you believe in god?

Yes or no please (unless you want to claim you don't know what you believe).

Do I believe in God? I don't know, like I said I think there is an equal chance of there being a supernatural being or there not being a supernatural being. Every religion on Earth has an equal chance of being right or being wrong at the same time since there is no way to prove or disprove. I'll find out what it's all about when I die.

Let's just say I keep an open mind about religion and through the course of my anthropological studies I've been taught to practice culture relativism the best I can.

But you probably live your life as if there is no God, which makes you an atheist.

Nope, I live my life not knowing. If there is a supernatural being I feel as if I've done good and if there isn't, well at least people will remember me for being an OK guy. I'm OK with not know as I don't really need an answer one way or another, although if someone proved a belief tomorrow I probably would subscribe to it given enough peer review.

 

[Sage]

I don't know, like I said I think there is an equal chance of there being a supernatural being or there not being a supernatural being.

That doesn’t make any sense, Joey. The chances that the Keebler Elves made the Earth in a giant oven (to steal an analogy from Duke) are not 50:50… it’s highly improbable, as we have been given no evidence to believe it’s true. Likewise, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever of a God, so the changes are highly improbable and not anywhere near 50:50.

 

[Joey D]

That doesn’t make any sense, Joey. The chances that the Keebler Elves made the Earth in a giant oven (to steal an analogy from Duke) are not 50:50… it’s highly improbable, as we have been given no evidence to believe it’s true. Likewise, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever of a God, so the changes are highly improbable and not anywhere near 50:50.

Makes sense to me, I wasn't around when the universe was created so I don't know. I accept the scientific explanation, but since there is no way to concretely say what caused the Big Bang or even if the Big Bang was the way it happened I'm not going to say for sure. My theories on the universe are quite out there too, but another thread some other time perhaps.

Is it really that hard to accept that I don't have a belief one way or another? I don't know and neither do you.

 

[Sage]

I don&#8217;t think you understood my point&#8230; Just because I (we) don&#8217;t know for sure doesn&#8217;t mean that the probability is 50:50. I would say the probability of string theory being accurate is about 50% (maybe a bit higher), and same with dark energy, and both of those have much more evidence than God. Again, do you believe that there&#8217;s a 50:50 chance that the Keebler Elves made the world in a giant oven? Personally, I would say the probability of that is <<1%, as we&#8217;ve been given no evidence to even begin assuming that it&#8217;s a plausible theory. Same with God.

 

[Joey D]

I don&#8217;t think you understood my point&#8230; Just because I (we) don&#8217;t know for sure doesn&#8217;t mean that the probability is 50:50. I would say the probability of string theory being accurate is about 50% (maybe a bit higher), and same with dark energy, and both of those have much more evidence than God. Again, do you believe that there&#8217;s a 50:50 chance that the Keebler Elves made the world in a giant oven? Personally, I would say the probability of that is <<1%, as we&#8217;ve been given no evidence to even begin assuming that it&#8217;s a plausible theory. Same with God.

Ok, I admit my 50:50 example was a bit shallow to compare everything to. I think a better way to put it is that since we don't know, everything has a chance of being right just as everything has a chance of being wrong. Some things may have a better chance of being right and some things may have a better chance of being wrong.

When it comes to a belief in a supernatural being though, I think just about anything has equal weight since we really don't know. The Flying Spaghetti Monster could be true for all I know. Not one person in the history of humankind can even provide a shred of evidence to either confirm or deny the existence of a supernatural being whatever that may or may not be.

Catholicism could be correct, Scientology could be correct, Islam could be correct, Norse paganism could be correct, the belief that some dude lit a fart on fire and out popped the universe could be correct. All I know is I'm not going to dwell to much on these things throughout my life and I'm going to do what I want to do, whatever happens after death happens.

 

[mindwise]

Is it really that hard to accept that I don't have a belief one way or another? I don't know and neither do you.

Yes, that is hard to believe because belief is not a choice, it is how the brain works, someone makes a claim and then we believe, or we do not.
If you yourself do not know if you believe, then who does? (i hold that not knowing if you believe is still an atheist position, since you do not say you do believe (theist).

I stated i am an agnostic atheist by which i already implied i do not know for sure, so the 'neither do you' was not necessary

I don't believe in leprechauns and i take it neither do you.
Neither of us is 100% sure if they exist or not, but since we have no knowledge of leprechauns (we are agnostic wrt leprechauns) i (we?) do not believe they do exist.

Belief = knowledge + plausibility
If i say 'i have a cat as a pet' then you probably will believe me on the face of me claiming that since you know cats exist and you know people have them as pets all the time.
If i say i have fire breathing dragon the table shifts, since the claim is highly unlikely, you do not know dragons exist let alone people having them as a pet. I think your brain will need some pretty conclusive evidence before it can believe that claim.

Ah well, i probably already stepped on your, or someone else's, toes here and there and it seems i dragged the discussion off topic too.

I love these discussions and i could bore you with it 'ad finitum' (as my life is limited ) i think you are a better GT5P driver then i am so i should probably start my engine and practice rather then annoy and bore you Joey

Joey (and Sage (and all the others)) hehe

 

[Joey D]

No I actually enjoy discussion like this as well, as long as they don't get out of hand. You didn't step on my toes and I'm perfectly fine with someone questioning. So no hard feelings from me.

Belief, non-belief, and everything in between is hard to pin down. The only way I'm ever going to out and out believe something beyond a shadow of a doubt is if I can physically see it. Past that there is always a chance of it being false or being true. You can tell me you have a cat, but without actually seeing it I don't really know if you do or not.

Like I said, I like keeping an open mind on things and hearing all sides out no matter how crazy they may seem. And just because I subscribe to something, like extraterrestrial life, doesn't mean I don't also question it's validity.

There might be another more relevant religion thread around that these post could be move to to make this back on topic.

Oh and there is no way you are any worse then I at GT5P as I don't even own it .

 

[mindwise]

Oh and there is no way you are any worse then I at GT5P as I don't even own it .

Whaah, that's what i get for believing without evidence

Well, if we both enjoy it, then i happily risk an 'off topic' reprimand, hehe.

Please tell me two things (that may be related)
1- Why are you so reluctant wrt the word atheist?
2- A couple of times you said 'keep an open mind', that sounds like a good thing, i do that too and that is perfectly compatible with being an atheist.

In fact, everything you've said is very compatible with the atheist position

I think extraterrestrial life very probably exists, i don't believe we were ever visited by aliens though.

I question my beliefs too, all the time. It seems we both think it is important that what we believe is as close to the reality of things as possible.

What's keeping you in the closet, atheist ;p

 

[niky]

RE: Hate: when you put such a blatantly anti-Christian message beside such an innocous display, that smacks of attacking merely to provoke and detracts fom the actual message the display is trying to put forth. It's like putting a placard shouting "Illegal immigrants steal jobs from natural-born Americans!" beside the plaque ""Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free..." on the Statue of Liberty. It's a valid complaint, but it has no reason for being within the context of Liberty Island itself... and I'd bet the government would actually take it down.

As to whether there's a God or not... if we're talking about probabilities, what you're probably referring to is the probability that there is a vaguely human God, either a Caucasian with a flowing white beard or looking like Morgan Freeman in slacks and loafers. The statistical probability of this kind of God is somewhere between 0 and 0.1%, but the thing is, you can't completely rule out the existence of something outside of your observable universe. While that, obviously, lays open the possibility of the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that's a risk I'm actually willing to take.

I'm not a Creationist. But I'd like to believe that there's something out there beyond our understanding. Many scientists are cosmists and agnostics... believing in the metaphysical but recognizing that trying to classify it as a uniquely human thing (again, that God looks a lot like Morgan Freeman in slacks and loafers) is inherently vain and self-serving.

We all need our own superstitions, I suppose. Having abstract absolutes makes life easier to live.

 

[nk4e]

So Santa can be a different color?

 

[Joey D]

1- Why are you so reluctant wrt the word atheist?

I'm not, I just don't consider myself one. Atheism to me to saying "There is no God" where as Agnosticism to me is saying "I don't know if there is a God". I'm the ladder as I don't honestly know what's out there. I can't say there is no God as there is no evidence to prove that, but I also can't say there is a God since there is no evidence to prove that either.

I guess if you wanted to label me an Atheist then I would be a very weak one. For a long time now I've questioned my stance on religion ultimately coming to the conclusion that I don't know and I'm going to go nuts trying to figure it out.

There also might be a cultural different in meaning here. I've only ever been to the Netherlands for a short time and the closest thing I have to an informant is a professor of mine who grew up outside of Amsterdam and attended Utrecht University.

2- A couple of times you said 'keep an open mind', that sounds like a good thing, i do that too and that is perfectly compatible with being an atheist.

I agree, I think anyone can have an open mind. I just think I'm a bit more opened minded to things that other might not be. I have some rather odd ideas on things at times.

I question my beliefs too, all the time. It seems we both think it is important that what we believe is as close to the reality of things as possible.

I like to live in a world of proof, but be willing to accept other ideas. I just don't know about a lot of things and I sort of gave up on trying to know things for certain. Just remember Schrödinger's cat may or may not be dead .

What's keeping you in the closet, atheist ;p

If I ever decided to make the leap over to Atheism I would be ridiculed by about 98% of the people I know. It's just not really that acceptable in the US to be an Atheist it seems.

 

[mindwise]

It's just not really that acceptable in the US to be an Atheist it seems.

That makes a lot of sense, and actually the precise reason i ask.
It is easy for me to say you should start calling yourself an atheist for precisely that reason, i understand it is a lot harder from where you are standing though

Just remember, most atheists do not have an active belief there is no god, they just lack the belief theists have

Cheers Joey.

 

[mindwise]

RE: Hate: when you put such a blatantly anti-Christian message

It seems more broadly 'anti religion', why do you say 'anti christian', what does it read that you project it onto christianity specifically?
Moreover, what does the sign claim that is completely untrue in your view?

"Illegal immigrants steal jobs from natural-born Americans!"

Yes, well the christian bible contains all kinds of such accusations against atheists (and many others), yet that is ok?

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good".

The statistical probability of this kind of God is somewhere between 0 and 0.1%

Can i please see the math behind this?

Many scientists are cosmists and agnostics... believing in the metaphysical

Well, you'll need to convince me of that with some numbers, firstoff, is the 'many' you speak off relative, what percentage are you talking about?

I have never met a scientist that believes in the metaphysical, moreover, no metaphysical something has ever been observed.
everything!! we do know is physical and explained naturally, what is this metaphysical?, please give me an example of something metaphysical.

We all need our own superstitions, I suppose.

We do? why, give me one example where superstition is a good thing?

Again, please consider the fact that the christian lobby is actively working to infringe on the rights of people who do not hold their beliefs.

Don't get me wrong niky, i'm just curious why you are so angry

 

[Kylehnat]

Olympia is the most liberal city in the least-religious state, yet bullcrap like this still happens every year. We're too PC here. For some reason, there is a belief that anyone should be able to have their say, no matter how stupid, misinformed, or offensive it is.

I don't like the atheists' message, and I'm surprised it was allowed to be displayed. I have no problem with a nativity scene, menorah, Santa Darwin, or whatever symbol represents this time of year to whomever, but I do have a problem with antagonist messages, regardless of which side it's from. Religion and politics are two arenas where nobody ever switches sides. Let's all just keep it to ourselves, and move on.

 

[Solid Fro]

@ at Solid Fro: I would recommend voicing your own opinion but since you haven't I must say I strongly disagree with your spokesperson and I find the 'no spin' comment in the first second of play highly ironic.

I think you, Bill O'Reilly, and I are on the same page. If you have found any spin, please post it.

I believe in no religion, including Atheism. Defending those who are being attacked merely because they do believe in a religion is something worth fighting for.

 

[a6m5]

A wise man once told me, "Never speak about politics or religion to someone that doesn't agree with you, It always turns out ugly, and neither of you are either right or wrong."

I hold similar belief. Often, there is no right or wrong. It's like they are arguing what color it is. Black or white, when they are all looking at gray.

On topic: Looks like most members here can agree on this: Children needs to play nice.

 

[niky]

It seems more broadly 'anti religion', why do you say 'anti christian', what does it read that you project it onto christianity specifically?
Moreover, what does the sign claim that is completely untrue in your view?

The errh... fact that its set up right next to baby Jesus? It's more of a publicity stunt than anything...

And no, the sign doesn't claim anything that doesn't have the slightest tinge of truth... I'm not going to argue that organized religion isn't a subjugation of people's free will... that's why I'm an agnostic.

Yes, well the christian bible contains all kinds of such accusations against atheists (and many others), yet that is ok? "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good".

Did I say it was? Why not put the plaque beside a copy of the bible? And the Bible also takes potshots at other religions, at Jews (in the new Testament), and other jewish preachers and leaders. History is written by the winners... or so it is said...

Can i please see the math behind this?

Would you like the possibility to be more than 0.1%? There are no negative scales for possibilities... it's either something or nothing.

Well, you'll need to convince me of that with some numbers, firstoff, is the 'many' you speak off relative, what percentage are you talking about?

I have never met a scientist that believes in the metaphysical, moreover, no metaphysical something has ever been observed.
everything!! we do know is physical and explained naturally, what is this metaphysical?, please give me an example of something metaphysical.

Einstein... for one... Darwin for another... both products of their times. In the Creationism versus Evolution debate, quite a few paleontologists (sorry Joey) have stated that they do believe in God. I've never bothered to actually look the numbers up... but here's a study about it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8916982

Mind-boggling, huh? Religious outnumber atheists by 2:1.

And to reiterate something I said earlier:

"Now we must examine the nature of these differences," Ecklund said today. "Many scientists see themselves as having a spirituality not attached to a particular religious tradition. Some scientists who don't believe in God see themselves as very spiritual people. They have a way outside of themselves that they use to understand the meaning of life."

Spirituality and the belief in the metaphysical is not limited to being a member of a major old-world religious sect or believing in a personal, human God.

We do? why, give me one example where superstition is a good thing?

The belief in the metaphysical, or even in such abstractions as justice and "human rights" (what gives humans more rights than anyone or anything else?) helps keep people grounded. Gives them a rudder, so to speak. While excessive belief in any theism to the exclusion of evidence to the contrary is unhealthy, a small amount of belief helps motivate humanity.

It's this need to believe in something more, or to achieve something beyond the ordinary that pushes human innovation, cultural development and etcetera, etcetera, whatever-ever. Some people don't need a religious "crutch", while others take strength from it. Everyone has their unshakeable abstract belief, whether it be God, Profit-motive, Democracy, Human Rights, Progress, Gaia... this helps define what you do with your life and how you and society evolve and develop over time.

Like I've posted in the "Creation Versus Evolution" thread, there is no dichotony between scientific training and spirituality... not like people would have you believe. Just a clash between the corporeal authority of organized religious groups with very material aims and scientific truth.

Again, please consider the fact that the christian lobby is actively working to infringe on the rights of people who do not hold their beliefs.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Note, from the Creationism versus Evolution thread that I'm against the ludicrously named "Intelligent Design" movement.

Don't get me wrong niky, i'm just curious why you are so angry

I'm not angry, but I am disappointed. Because this form of protest, rather than winning converts, just strengthens the opposition. It's not thought provoking... rather, it's reaction-provoking. Like I've said, it's contextually irrelevant. Posting an anti-religious sign at a nativity scene, which celebrates human life and "peace on Earth", isn't far off from posting it at a mission giving shelter to the hungry and homeless. It sends the wrong message to the people you're trying to convert to your cause and just labels you as nothing more than a loudmouth... and is just as likely to push the wavering religious back towards the other side.

If it were posted outside the tent of some two-faced firebrand preacher, no problem, actually... or outside a gold-gilded cathedral sitting in the midst of rural slums... Attack the indefensible, the unpardonable parts of organized religion. Hell, go bother the scientologists.

The "Be Good for Goodness Sakes" slogans, like I cited earlier, are a better way to win converts over to your cause. Positive message, attractive even to the religious... and thought provoking.

 

[Joey D]

In the Creationism versus Evolution debate, quite a few archeologists have stated that they do believe in God.

Errr what does archaeologist believing in God have to do with anything? My favourite professor and one I've been on several digs with is a devout Mormon and it's never interfered with his work nor enhanced it. My agnostic view of God doesn't really get in the way either, nor help it.

Archaeologist just dig things up and figure out how they relate to the topic they are trying to study. In order to figure out the past one must adapt cultural relativism and study the culture from the way they would have seen it instead of how you see it now. Example: An archaeologist wouldn't think a Thor's hammer amulet found in northern Germany was worthless because paganism isn't a "real" religion by his/her standards.

Paleontology has more to do with the evolution of species and finding their remains whereas archaeology has more to do with humans and their culture.

The only archaeologist that aren't really respected by the community are the nut job biblical archaeologist would corrupt data so bad that their reports aren't even worth the paper they are printed on.

**Also that article is a bit misleading as social science is comprised of a lot of things.

Social science: A body of related courses concerned with knowledge of the social life of human groups and individuals, including economics, geography, history, political science, psychology, social studies, and sociology.

So economics, geography, history (for the most part), political science, and social studies rarely touch on religion in a way that would make someone not believe. Psychologist are probably split, sociologist and anthropologist are probably more toward the non-believing side because many of us have to be in order to do some of our research...or at the very least agnostic. Although like I said, I know anthropologist who believe in God and it doesn't interfere with their work at all. It really depends on what you are researching.

 

[niky]

Whoops... let me fix that... I meant Paleontologists.