Student Denied Diploma, Fined $1,000 for Feather

[Rainbow Dash]

If this happened to me I would of been thrown in jail for the hissy fit I through afterwards. In school the kids are 2nd class citizens & are treated as such. I couldn't tell you how many times I told my teachers to **** off.

 

[niky]

Good luck with ever getting a diploma... or a decent job... if you were the kind to do that.

If I put a little piece of paper instead of a feather, will I get fined ? They should have just taken the feather away from her or ask nicely on the spot to remove it, and no need for further drama with the diploma and fine.

Physically removing the feather or the student from the premises is a gross violation of the girl's rights. Not giving her the diploma (unless she pays the fine) for violating the rules isn't.

The school was in the wrong denying it in the first place as I said.

What seems an arbitrary dress code is there for a reason.

A graduation is a time for celebration for every graduate. Not just the rich kid down the street. Not just for the Native Americans. Not just for the Muslims in full traditional dress. Not just for the weird Scottish kid who insists on wearing a kilt with no underwear on his off-days.

Part of the reason you wear a toga at graduation is so everyone looks neat and formal. The other part is so that everyone is equal, whatever they're wearing underneath it.

It's not nice for the girl, but the school set that rule for a reason. To ensure equality amongst graduates. If you cave in to one request, then you have to allow all students to wear what they want, so that no one is more special than the rest.

It's your special day, yes... but if you make a big hoopla of it, and crown yourself with jewelry or even feathers, then you make it less special for everyone else. Most of her classmates won't mind, but again, it's a rule, and it's there for that reason.

Now, I'm not the greatest for following dress code. When I go to coat-and-tie dinners, my friends are always taking bets on whether I'll be wearing shorts or jeans. But when required, I either dress up as asked, or simply... don't go.

If you refuse to abide by the rules... why bother going at all?

 

[Rainbow Dash]

The public school system has very flawed rules. My friend was back handed by another student & was fined. He didn't retaliate or even initiate confrontation. It was the school's rule that he gets fined. How is that fair? If I ever have kids the school I send them to better watch out because I'm the type of mom that will go down to the school to beat some sense into those idiots.

 

[TB]

I'm the type of mom that will go down to the school to beat some sense into those idiots.

What a wonderful example you'll be setting when you're

thrown in jail

👍

 

[Rainbow Dash]

When my Uncle was on the phone with the school he threatened to knock the principal's teeth out. The principal soon gave me the phone. The school's tax you worst than a tyrant monarch & treat your kids like criminals. It's ridiculous.

 

[TB]

The principal soon gave me the phone.

Someone's verbally abusive and threatening physical abuse. I wouldn't talk to them, either.

The school's tax you worst than a tyrant monarch

You pay taxes to he city, not the school. If you don't like the public school system, go private.

treat your kids like criminals.

If they didn't act like entitled idiots, they might be treated better. I had no issues with any of my teachers because I wasn't an asshole to them.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

You never went to an Allentown school then. Worst 12 years of my life.

Anyway, you just don't understand. You are the type who blindly follows the rules. Have a kid, have them wrongly punished at school multiple times & tell me you won't chew out the school official on the phone.

 

[niky]

If one child is physically abused and is the one who is punished, then there's something else at play. I doubt that's the entire story.

You can file a complaint and have the principal brought up on administrative charges if they're guilty of wrong-doing.

If you go on a sweary rant and threaten the principal with physical harm, they can file a complaint against you.

This is not to say that bullying doesn't occur in schools, but there's a proper way to respond to it.

 

[Joel]

The public school system

...has nothing to do with the article from the OP.

 

[TB]

You are the type who blindly follows the rules.

So you know everything about me, do you? Fascinating.

Have a kid, have them wrongly punished at school multiple times

I have two (but you already knew that, right?) and they have been in trouble at school for, shocker! Doing something wrong. If and when the time comes that they are falsely accused, I'll address that then. You can be certain that regardless of the situation, I won't:

chew out the school official on the phone.

Different culture, it appears, because I'm not going to fly off the handle and chew someone's ass, especially over the phone. If I'm going to discuss a serious matter, I'm going to do so face to face.

Can we get back to the topic at hand now, please?

 

[Zenith]

This thread is a great litmus test for finding the entitled children on this forum. The school has rights too. It is a private institution hosting its own event and therefore has the right to impose the dress code it desires.

It's a shame that a high school graduate is still so unclear on the basics of cause and effect.

 

[BobK]

This thread is a great litmus test for finding the entitled children on this forum.

Excellent point! +rep

The school has rights too. It is a private institution hosting its own event and therefore has the right to impose the dress code it desires.

It's a shame that a high school graduate is still so unclear on the basics of cause and effect.

Another very good observation there.

A few things are being overlooked here by the protesters. This girl is not being refused her diploma. She simply was not allowed to participate in the ceremony in which the diplomas were presented. She will receive that piece of paper, if she hasn't already.

Secondly, I received my high school diploma several decades ago. In the time since, I have not ever, not once, been required to produce that particular piece of paper for any prospective employer, educational establishment, or anyone else. It's sitting in a drawer somewhere, just like it has been pretty much since I received it. If I had never received the actual piece of paper it would have made no difference whatsoever in my life.

Anyone who has a need to know if she completed her schooling will contact the institution, not ask to see her diploma. Particularly nowadays, when anyone can "produce" a "diploma" with a few minutes work with a DTP program, or even a word processor.

 

[photonrider]

So you know everything about me, do you? Fascinating.

I didn't know this. Why am I blindly following you?

It's a shame that a high school graduate is still so unclear on the basics of cause and effect.

This crossed my mind, too. Does the Diploma also include common sense? If not, it should.

Anyone who has a need to know if she completed her schooling will contact the institution, not ask to see her diploma. Particularly nowadays, when anyone can "produce" a "diploma" with a few minutes work with a DTP program, or even a word processor.

QFT.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

I'd say that the said feather..



..broke the camels back.

 

[ShobThaBob]

The public school system has very flawed rules. My friend was back handed by another student & was fined. He didn't retaliate or even initiate confrontation. It was the school's rule that he gets fined. How is that fair? If I ever have kids the school I send them to better watch out because I'm the type of mom that will go down to the school to beat some sense into those idiots.

This wasn't a public school, though. It was a private school.

 

[Grayfox]

Schools are schools.

They think they are foreign soil so your states/counties laws do not apply.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The public school system has very flawed rules. My friend was back handed by another student & was fined. He didn't retaliate or even initiate confrontation. It was the school's rule that he gets fined. How is that fair?

As niky says, there is obviously something else going on. Did you friend ever question that further?

Anyway, you just don't understand. You are the type who blindly follows the rules. Have a kid, have them wrongly punished at school multiple times & tell me you won't chew out the school official on the phone.

I had a kid in my class the other day who did something very stupid and dangerous, refused to follow my instructions, and when the inevitable end came about as predicted and another student was injured (albeit a minor injury), he ran out of class without permission and did not come back for the next hour. I wrote up an incident report so that the school had something on paper. I also had other students write up their own statements of what happened, and submitted them to the school administration. I saw him again today in another class. He angrily informed me that I was the reason why he had been removed from the school's soccer team and was looking at a suspension.

If I had a dollar for every time I pulled a kid up for doing something stupid, dangerous or against the rules and they responded with "But I didn't do anything!", I'd probably be filfthy rich by noon. Kids - and adults, for that matter - naturally remember themselves to be the victim in these things. Even when one kid beats up another, they will try and justify it by claiming that there was some grievous wrong committed against them (which is almost always something minor) and that immediate and overwhleming violence was the only appropriate response.

So are your kids really being wrongfully punished - or are they just shifting the blame and refusing to accept responsibility for their actions?

 

[Zenith]

Schools are schools.

They think they are foreign soil so your states/counties laws do not apply.

Quoting for hilarious failure to understand private vs public establishments.

You don't have the right to exercise your freedom of speech on somebody else's land during one of their ceremonies. This goes double when the ground rules were laid out as clearly as they were for this girl.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Schools are schools.

They think they are foreign soil so your states/counties laws do not apply.

On private property that you pay to attend, the bill of rights does not apply. Private schools and organizations do not have to allow minorities in as students, can force religion, and can restrict speech if they so want to. The same cannot be said for the employees, however.

 

[Johnnypenso]

As niky says, there is obviously something else going on. Did you friend ever question that further?

So are your kids really being wrongfully punished - or are they just shifting the blame and refusing to accept responsibility for their actions?

My son came home from school one day when he was 7 or so and said he got "in trouble" from a teacher at recess. He said he wasn't sure why, he was playing with his friends and she came over yelling and made them stop. Few days later he comes home with a letter from the school saying that he's violated school policy be engaging in "activities that are not allowed on school property" or some such nonsense and was on his last warning and might be suspended if he does it again. I asked him what he did and typically he said, "nothing". Asked again and he said, "I don't know a bunch of us were playing tag then a teacher came over and started yelling and told us to stop".

There had to be more to the story so the wife and I marched off to the school for an interview whereupon the teacher involved, quite indignantly said, "we have a no touching policy at the school and games like tag are not allowed". The wife and I looked at each other incredulously and I said, "this is a joke right, he's a 7 year old boy playing tag with his friends" After some back and forth with the teacher, who was incredibly defensive and arrogant IMO, I finally said, "So nobody got hurt, he didn't push anyone down, no one complained etc., it's just not allowed regardless?" Yes, was the answer.

Sometimes when kids come home with unbelievable stories, they are actually true...lol.

 

[arora]

Sometimes when kids come home with unbelievable stories, they are actually true...lol.

It happens all the time in the u.s., the teachers either try and impose their will or become lazy and rely on rules over common sense. The absolute worst part of it is the criminalizing of the kids, as I see it we force kids into a first step prison program.

If anyone wants to see how it's going just google Tavis Smiley's series on it, some of the stories would haunt you.

And just so Prisonmonkey doesn't feel left out; "abolish the public scrule system in the u.s, now"

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Sometimes when kids come home with unbelievable stories, they are actually true...lol.

Unbelievable it may be, but there is a certain logic to it. The school has a hands-off policy, but if they only enforce it every now and again, the policy is effectively useless.

It happens all the time in the u.s., the teachers either try and impose their will or become lazy and rely on rules over common sense.

Spoken like somebody who has not been in a school for years.

Teachers don't try to "impose their will" on students. We try to educate, and we have to do the best we can with what we've got. It's hardly "imposing their will" when a teacher gives a student a direct instruction and expects the student to follow it immediately because their behaviour is in violation of the school rules.

The absolute worst part of it is the criminalizing of the kids, as I see it we force kids into a first step prison program.

That's the kind of touchy-feely garbage that assumes that any kind of discipline is immediately demoralising. How can you expect students to be able to take responsibility for their actions when you don't hold them accountable in the first place?

And just so Prisonmonkey doesn't feel left out; "abolish the public scrule system in the u.s, now"

I actally work in the public system.

 

[arora]

Spoken like somebody who has not been in a school for years.

Right, spoken by someone who went to school when this sort of crap was not an issue, spoken by a father of two who unfortunately has seen it in two worsening waves.

Teachers don't try to "impose their will" on students. We try to educate, and we have to do the best we can with what we've got. It's hardly "imposing their will" when a teacher gives a student a direct instruction and expects the student to follow it immediately because their behavior is in violation of the school rules.

I'm all for rules, I question the integrity of the teachers and more to the point how they allow their emotions to overcome common sense.

That's the kind of touchy-feely garbage that assumes that any kind of discipline is immediately demoralizing. How can you expect students to be able to take responsibility for their actions when you don't hold them accountable in the first place?

Touchy feely? Nice try mate I'm the same conservative right wing religious zealot gun toting hill billy you love to hate, I promise.

Kids need to take responsibility sure, as do adults, as do the teachers, imagine that?

I actually work in the public system.

I know you do, and I've already been kind and thankful to you for that in case you forgot.

You can skip my points all you want, I've seen quite a bit in my life and I wish everyone would take more responsibility. Kids are not so bad, they make mistakes because they are kids, learning how to do the right things.(or unfortunately learning how to do what teachers and parents do)

As a tax payer I hired the school to teach my children, I don't think they are capable of doing a very good job.

Just to add at least one thing on the op's topic; I have no problem with how the school handled the deal, if it was my kid she would have just worn the damn feather without first asking for permission, any penalty assigned we would have dealt with afterwards without any fuss.

I'm still laughing at Monkey calling me touchy feely ROFL

 

[eran0004]

It's a stupid rule and a stupid school for being unable to be a little flexible.
Of course they have every right to have stupid rules, as well as it's my right to think that they've gone bonkers.

If we erased all history and looked at it as an isolated event, then it wasn't very smart of her to go ahead and wear the feather when she already had been denied it, but if we pause for a moment and take a look at what's in our backpacks we'll notice this colonial view, saying that the native american society was inferior and needed to be "civilized", later "americanized" with attempts being made to forbid native american languages and culture and enforce christianity instead. We have the removal and relocations of native americans into reservations as well as continuos discrimination, racism and general "making fun of", such as:

She's Native American, so "arrow to the knee", instead?

So there you go, half a millennia of authorities and society saying that her culture is worth nothing(*). Now she wants to display her pride in her ancestry by wearing a cultural symbol at what for her is probably one of the most important events of her life so far. The school denies her the permission to do so, but she feels so strongly for the cause so she decides to break the rules and go ahead with it anyway.

I say she did the right thing.
She broke the rule, but she did what was important for her.
Now she have to fine $1000 to get her diploma, I find that ridiculous and I think that the school should be ashamed.

(* Not accusing America for treating their native population any worse than any other country, in Sweden we did exactly the same to the Sami people when we colonized the northern parts of our country in the 17th and 18th century.)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Unbelievable it may be, but there is a certain logic to it. The school has a hands-off policy, but if they only enforce it every now and again, the policy is effectively useless.

I dare you to try and convince me that not allowing children to play tag has any logic to it. I agree we don't want kids wailing on each other but that's not children's games, that's violence. It's just a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and it's ridiculous. I played tag thousands of times as a child and I don't recall any major injuries from it. It's called "having fun".

It's a stupid rule and a stupid school for being unable to be a little flexible.
Of course they have every right to have stupid rules, as well as it's my right to think that they've gone bonkers.
...wall of text...

I'm curious to know if you read any of the previous posts in the thread and in particular how you feel about the concept of the private school being able to make their own rules and that if you don't follow those rules, you have to accept the consequences?

 

[Joel]

Spoken like somebody who has not been in a school for years.

Teachers don't try to "impose their will" on students. We try to educate, and we have to do the best we can with what we've got. It's hardly "imposing their will" when a teacher gives a student a direct instruction and expects the student to follow it immediately because their behaviour is in violation of the school rules.

Speaking as someone who graduated high school last year, teachers imposing their will happens a lot. In my experience, teachers giving direct instructions more often boils down to "because I said so" rather than breaking rules. Of course, not all of my teachers acted that way, but there were a lot of teachers in their mid 40's with seniority and on their way to a pension that just phoned it in, and any kid that didn't immediately sit down and do busy work was a problem.

I'm willing to wager you're not that type of teacher, abd that you're one who takes their job seriously and isn't out for a power trip. However, the good ones tend to be outweighed by the bad ones and you'd better listen to them because they said so.

 

[niky]

Abuse of authority, maybe tangentially related, but a separate issue. The issue here is whether the feather should have been allowed in the first place.

Now she wants to display her pride in her ancestry by wearing a cultural symbol at what for her is probably one of the most important events of her life so far. The school denies her the permission to do so, but she feels so strongly for the cause so she decides to break the rules and go ahead with it anyway.

I'm all for cultural awareness, and if the feather was merely a symbol of the culture, I'd be all for it.

But.. here's the thing:

Again, a graduation is an academic event. Togas and caps are often used as an equalizer. Class, race, religion and nationality don't matter in a graduation. What matters is academic achievement.

A graduation is a celebration of intellectual achievement, and a ceremony in which students are (hopefully, supposedly) bound together in academic ritual, even though they might never see each other again. Much as in a Military Academy, only less formal and less binding, they form a new clan or society, united despite their differences.

Well, that's the thought, anyway.

If she wanted to take pictures after the ceremony in full native dress, that's fine. If she broke the show of solidarity and equality during a ceremony in which all are supposedly equal (except those who are more equal than others, and receive awards for academic accomplishments), then... no. Especially if the feather was not merely decorative, but symbolic of achievement, as suggested in the article.

-

I might have allowed it, myself, but I can fully understand why not.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Again, a graduation is an academic event. Togas and caps are often used as an equalizer. Class, race, religion and nationality don't matter in a graduation. What matters is academic achievement.

A graduation is a celebration of intellectual achievement, and a ceremony in which students are (hopefully, supposedly) bound together in academic ritual, even though they might never see each other again. Much as in a Military Academy, only less formal and less binding, they form a new clan or society, united despite their differences.

I'd like to see someone trying to wear a feather at a West Point graduation ceremony. I wonder if the same people arguing for the feather at a school graduation would argue native Americans (or any other group) should be allowed to wear feathers (or anything else other than the prescribed uniform) graduating from a Military Academy.