Stupid review!

[Wolfe]

Enthusia yes, but GT4??? It's comments like that, and on other aspects about GT4, especially when compared to other games that suggest that you either do not even know about all the cars and features in GT4, or are simply trying to mislead people.

Just to refresh your memory...

GT4's selection of ONLY European & American cars:

• __9 Different Countries
• _59 Different Makes
• 276 Different Models
  
• 210 Different Production Street Cars
• _88 Different Production Street Cars made between 1949 and 1999
• _17 Different Concept Cars
• _49 Different Race Cars
• _27 Different Race Cars made before the year 2000 (earliest was 1937)
• _20 Different Race Car Classifications
• _11 Different Rally Race Cars

As has already been mentioned... but not adressed by yourself, GT4 also offers an amazingly wide variety of car types including trucks, SUVs, vans, crossovers/hybrids, wagons, sedans, coupes, muscle cars, convertibles, GT's, exotics, sports cars, roadsters, boxers, hatchbacks, microcars, etc.

GT4 also offers a wide variety of concepts, classics, and race car classifications.

Pretty nice list of numbers you've got there. You must be a Japanese car fan.

Not only is GT4 missing two of Europe's biggest players, Ferrari and Lamborghini, it also only has Ruf instead of Porsche (for some, that isn't a good enough substitute (pun not intended)). Much of the rest of the European lineup consists of cars that are closely related to each other, and even if something is completely unique, it's bound to have been made within the last 7 years. There are some historic cars included, but they often go without their contemporary rivals, and sometimes can't really be matched up with anything else.

The only reason why america's marque list is so long is because PD felt the need to put anything that was even 1% american into that list, and also because american manufacturers like to build cars under 50 billion different company names. Although I'm no american car fan myself, we've all heard enough complaints to know that they aren't satisfied with what GT4 has to offer, and a quick look at the car list can reveal that aside from the odd pickup truck, GT4's american selection is pretty much limited to the big-name sportscars and a handful of musclecar legends that seem to have been chosen at random. Of course, there's also barely any "vanilla" american cars in sight, while Japanese manufacturers offer them by the dozen.

There's much, much more that could have been tapped in terms of European and american automotive history, and much more that probably should have been tapped. I'm all for excluding as few cars as possible, but when the Honda Life Step Van makes the cut and countless rally and/or racing legends don't, that's just odd.

I don't even blame or hate PD for putting together GT4's car list with a Japanese bias (the car list is one of the few things I love about the game), but anyone who can't see the bias is blind.

I asked a week ago to try and come up with any current driving simulator game that has more cars or a wider variety of cars than GT4. Not surprisingly, no game has been mentioned.

You won't find any games with more cars, because other developers care more about other aspects of the game too much to dwell on wow-ing players with a big number on the back of the box. Regardless of how good you or I think GT4 is as a whole, the fact remains that PD responded to the complaints about how GT3 had less cars than GT2, and decided to go overboard on GT4.

As for the variety, as I already said, it depends on what you're looking for. Personally, I think Sega GT 2002/Online had one of the most varied car lists, because it had many obscure and/or neat and/or historically significant cars that are rarely found in other racing titles. PGR2, apart from having a significantly smaller selection, almost offers the same amount of variety as GT4, but tipped in the favor of European marques.

If, for you, "variety" means having the largest amount of cars that don't share the same exact chassis or bodywork, that's fine, too. GT4 would win in that case.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

There is simply too much in your replies that are either gross exaggerations or completely untrue to even try and cover them all, but here are a few:

Pretty nice list of numbers you've got there. You must be a Japanese car fan.

Completely untrue... (and considering that list had no Japanese cars your assumption is rather bizarre). As I have said before I am a classic car fan, mostly Italian and British, but I don't limit my interests nationally. This is likely why one of my favorite racing events in GT4 is the 1000Miles. Of modern cars I prefer German engineering.

Much of the rest of the European lineup consists of cars that are closely related to each other

Wrong.

and even if something is completely unique, it's bound to have been made within the last 7 years.

Wrong again.

There are some historic cars included, but they often go without their contemporary rivals, and sometimes can't really be matched up with anything else.

So first you suggest that GT4 doesn't have enough variety and too many of the same cars, then you say its too varied and not enough similar cars to be matched up with...

You switch your thoughts around to suit your need to mislead and misdirect. 👎

I'm not even going to try and respond to your tirade on the American cars...

There's much, much more that could have been tapped in terms of European and american automotive history, and much more that probably should have been tapped.

And yet you fail to come up with any other current game that taps into more cars from European & American automotive history. In fact, with that rationale, then Live For Speed is the absolute worst by comparison.

I'm all for excluding as few cars as possible, but when the Honda Life Step Van makes the cut and countless rally and/or racing legends don't, that's just odd.

It's called variety... or did you forget?

I don't even blame or hate PD for putting together GT4's car list with a Japanese bias (the car list is one of the few things I love about the game), but anyone who can't see the bias is blind.

And anyone who can't see how even if you ignored ALL the Japanese cars, it still has the largest and widest variety of cars IS bias AND blind.

You won't find any games with more cars, because other developers care more about other aspects of the game too much to dwell on wow-ing players with a big number on the back of the box.

What an absolute crock of... Man, did PD run over your dog? You might as well say "because other developers don't care about offering gamers a large variety of cars, and instead they dwell on TRYING to wow players with minor differences in some of the physics in hopes they might not notice their deficiencies in cars, tracks, events, features, etc."

PGR2, apart from having a significantly smaller selection, almost offers the same amount of variety as GT4, but tipped in the favor of European marques.

LMAO... I'd love to see you even try to prove it. Make the list and lets see just how much variety it has.

If, for you, "variety" means having the largest amount of cars that don't share the same exact chassis or bodywork, that's fine, too. GT4 would win in that case.

I made it pretty clear what variety means, but in all categories (countries represented, makes, models, production years, car types, race classifications, etc), GT4 has the most variety.

 

[Dark Elite]

I'm not sure I have the words to accurately capture how completely brain-dead this [fitting ASM as standard] is.

With ASM on the default settings, the game is completely unplayable (especially amusing are the license tests that encourage you to "drift" around turns on dirt courses, which you can't actually do well if the ASM is deliberately defeating your oversteer).

GT4 has detailed information on every car in the game, but frustratingly presents that information via a side-scrolling marquee view that prevents you from actually reading the items in less than 10 minutes. So the game might have, for example, three paragraphs of text on the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII. And you really want to read them, because they're interesting and well-written, but in order to read them you have to suffer through their scrolling into view like a stock ticker, 6 words at a time. The Japanese version of the game just gave you a screenfull of text that you could read like a normal human being, but apparently because the localization team hates me I have to suffer.

If you're one of the intrepid souls who was an early beta-tester of LawnMan 2: Watching Grass Grow, B-spec mode will be right up your alley.

The AI is indistinguishable from that in GT3, which is to say it is disgustingly horrible, an abomination of Biblical proportions. If there was an option to win races by simply turning off the stupid, irritating, useless, and utterly unchallenging computer cars and just racing against the clock, I would turn it on in a heartbeat. I have nothing positive to say about the rubber-band AI in the game. It is a complete travesty from top to bottom.

The rear-view mirror in the game is still useles in that the perspective it gives is somehow pointless -- cars look about 6 times further away in the mirror than they do when you look behind you.

If you're looking for a good racing game, no, you should not buy Gran Turismo 4.

I think it's a rather good review, actually.

DE

 

[Moloch_horridus]

I think it's a rather good review, actually.

DE

Yep, there is nothing you quoted there that I could really argue against with conviction.

 

[Wolfe]

There is simply too much in your replies that are...gross exaggerations...

...keep in mind that I don't take my rants as seriously as you might think -- try to imagine Jeremy Clarkson reading the words of my rants (from watching Top Gear, he's no doubt influenced me), and they might not seem so offensive (depending on whether or not you find Jeremy funny).

To put it another way, I'm expressing my real opinions, but hyperbole is often the name of the game.

Come to think of it, I wonder how many people think that I pound all of this stuff into my keyboard, with bloodshot eyes, a hideous scowl on my face, and steam shooting out of my ears...or something to that effect.

Completely untrue... (and considering that list had no Japanese cars your assumption is rather bizarre).

It had nothing to do with the presence of Japanese cars in the list. It was based on the fact that you provided nothing but a raw list of numbers to "prove" that the game had a very diverse selection of European/american cars. A somewhat cold and assuming method for someone who would actually have a passion for those cars, if I may say so myself.

Wrong.

I'd give you examples to prove my point, but I'll never be correct as far as you're concerned.

Wrong again.

Again, I'd give you examples to prove my point, but I'm having trouble justifying wasting my time and effort to provide evidence when you refuse to take anything that is contained within my posts as even .01% truth.

So first you suggest that GT4 doesn't have enough variety and too many of the same cars, then you say its too varied and not enough similar cars to be matched up with...

Who's doing the word-twisting, here?

Here's what I said last Wednesday (emphasis added):

Enthusia and GT4 are relatively poor games to turn to if you primarily enjoy driving European or american cars...

...That said, GT4 does offer a decent variety of cars...

Yeah, GT4 is varied, but did PD treat European and american car fans as well as they did Japanese car fans? Hell no.

As for "GT4 has too many of the same cars," there's a difference between including several examples of the same make and model (even down to the generation/chassis) -- which is what GT4 does in several cases -- and giving a car like the Mercedes-Benz E190 2.5-16 Evo II at least a couple of its old DTM buddies to run with -- which is what GT4 did not do.

You switch your thoughts around to suit your need to mislead and misdirect. 👎

Oh no! I'm the big bad Wolfe!

You know, denouncing me as an e-criminal and putting words in my mouth doesn't make you right (or wrong, to be fair). It just makes you look like a asshole to anyone who doesn't buy into your side of the argument.

And yet you fail to come up with any other current game that taps into more cars from European & American automotive history.

How long will it take before you realize that you're not going to get any examples of games with more cars than GT4, European, american, or otherwise, and that none of us care?

Yeah, GT4 has the most cars, but that's a mixed blessing -- the larger a car list gets, the more the developers can be blamed for "missing" cars. As I've said before (twice, I believe), much of this discussion is subjective, because "variety" doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. For someone who primarily enjoys driving supercompacts and Kei cars, GT4 is heaven. For someone who primarily enjoys a wide range of sports- or racecars of both classic and modern vintage, from america, Europe, and Japan....eh, not so much.

To put it another way, every time PD added another car to the list, another "opportunity" was lost to include something else that may have been more significant in automotive history. You can see how this gets very subjective very quickly.

You can toss numbers until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, many of us still think Japanese cars are represented better in GT4 than american and European ones.

In fact, with that rationale, then Live For Speed is the absolute worst by comparison.

Give the man a round of applause, everyone! He figured out that Live for Speed doesn't have any well-known real-world cars!

It's called variety... or did you forget?

GT4 is still a racing game... or did you forget?

I try not to knock the often-unloved "bottom-feeders" of GT4's car list, but sometimes I wonder how many people would have been happier with a slightly-more-performance-focused selection. I can't imagine that many people would lose sleep over it.

And anyone who can't see how even if you ignored ALL the Japanese cars, it still has the largest and widest variety of cars IS bias AND blind.

Anyone who insists that GT4 has more than enough variety to please absolutely everyone (within reasonable expectations, given disc space and time constraints) is biased, self-centered, and blind.

What an absolute crock of... Man, did PD run over your dog? You might as well say "because other developers don't care about offering gamers a large variety of cars, and instead they dwell on TRYING to wow players with minor differences in some of the physics in hopes they might not notice their deficiencies in cars, tracks, events, features, etc."

I'll take great physics over content any day. That's why I play Live for Speed, and never touch GT4. That's my opinion, and if you think it's a crock of ellipsis, then you can go do something that, if described here, would make this post a blatant AUP violation, and require the usage of asterisks.

Need for Speed Hot Pursuit and High Stakes have thousands of cars to choose from, thanks to a still-alive modding community. Does that mean I keep an installation of High Stakes on my hard drive and play the game every day? Uh...no. The physics, though still pretty fun, are far, far, far, far from being as rewarding as something like Live for Speed.

LMAO... I'd love to see you even try to prove it. Make the list and lets see just how much variety it has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gotham_Racing_2#World_series

Not including the two download packs, PGR2 features hatchbacks/sports compacts, sports convertibles, sports coupes, SUVs, track-ready roadsters, american muscle cars, sportscars, GT cars, and supercars/exotics. It represents 8 countries and spans a timeframe from the 1950's to the present. Unlike GT4, PGR2 favors European manufacturers, and partly due of the fact that it has Porsche and Ferrari, it has at least 40 cars (out of a total of 102 cars, not including the downloadables) that GT4 doesn't have. Many of those 40 are incredibly popular, again thanks to Ferrari and Porsche.

For someone who enjoys sportscars more than anything else, PGR2 has a lot to offer, yet SUVs and hatchbacks weren't excluded entirely. For someone who enjoys European cars more than anything else, PGR2 has a lot to offer, yet a solid (albeit short) list of american and Japanese legends is featured.

Now let's look at what I said:

PGR2, apart from having a significantly smaller selection, almost offers the same amount of variety as GT4, but tipped in the favor of European marques.

Smaller selection? Check.
Not as much variety as GT4? Check.
Still a decent amount of variety? Check.
Tipped in favor of European marques? Check.

I can't wait to watch you twist this around.

I made it pretty clear what variety means

...to you.

but in all categories (countries represented, makes, models, production years, car types, race classifications, etc), GT4 has the most variety.

I could probably create a car list that would have even more "variety" based on those factors, yet would have a rather boring list. All you'd need would be at least one car from each country, each make, each decade/5 years, each type of car, and each racing class (strategic choices could limit the amount of cars necessary to satisfy those requirements), and then a whole bunch of Japanese Kei cars/compacts/vans/family sedans, one for each and every model year that they've been built for.

I'm not disputing that GT4 has variety, but you can't take something that is at least half subjective (the perceived variety of GT4's car list) and use nothing but numbers to "prove" that it's the "best."


--IN REVIEW--
- From what I've gathered, the thing I said that pissed you off so much is this: GT4, though it has a boatload of cars and decent variety, is a relatively poor choice for an american or European car fan.
- I have now demonstrated that PGR2, just one alternative, can be a great choice for a European car fan (makes sense, since Bizarre Creations is British, just like how it's understandable that the Japanese PD favors Japanese cars).
- Seeing as both are driving/racing games, PGR2 can be related to GT4.
- Relatively speaking (and only in terms of car selection), GT4 is a poorer choice than PGR2 for a European car fan. The mere fact that PGR2 has Porsche and Ferrari almost holds the weight of this claim all by itself.

The proportion balloon is about to burst. If you can't keep your "crock of ellipsis" comments to yourself, continue to accuse me of being a scheming, libellous e-villian, and continue to insist that there is only one correct definition of "variety" in the context of our discussion -- yours -- then I'll throw in the towel and bow to your infallibility.

I should probably walk away for the sake of on-topicness anyway.

Tell ya what, D-N -- if my opinion that GT4 isn't the best choice for a European/american car fan (speaking only in the context of car selection) really incenses you that much, PM me to continue this.

However, to be honest, I can't guarantee that I'll give a damn.

 

[Torana XU-1]

So what will it be guys, handbags at 20 paces?

 

[Wolfe]

So what will it be guys, handbags at 20 paces?

That's such a mature and constructive contribution that I forgot to not laugh, yet at the same time, it was so funny and original that I forgot to laugh. I do believe that you've created a paradox.

Honestly, though, that doesn't help. If we want to compete in the special olympics, then by all means, let us.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

The problem I have with Wolfe (and in some cases with the blogger that posted this review) is not with his opinion. I may not share his opinion on many topics, but that does not bother me in the least.

What really gets under my skin though is when people like Wolfe and this blogger use gross exaggerations, misleading information, and even absolute untruths to support their opinion. In the case of Wolfe in particular, he goes out of his way to do just that in countless numbers of threads regarding GT4. So not only is he force feeding everyone his opinions over and over and over again, he is also doing it using a great deal of misinformation to support those same opinions over and over and over again. 👎👎

If both the blogger and Wolfe would only stick to the actual facts, as there are plenty for why some people like them might not like GT4, then they not only would have never received any flack from me and possibly others, but they would have much more influence with those they are so obviously trying desperately to get to hate GT4 and Polyphony Digital with them.... or maybe they just likes all the attention they get from their rants.

I see these kind of posting methods all over the home theater forums like on AVS and HTF, and its sickening. It serves no purpose only to spread misinformation around like a virus. Like Wolfe's, these types of posts just clutter up the forums making it next to impossible for any casual reader and for those only interested in reading, learning, and understanding actual facts, to decipher what is factual, what is exaggerated, what is speculative, and what is simply made up.

I'm not saying everything Wolfe says is utter nonsense, and some of his opinions I actually share. Where we go opposite directions though is in the manor for which he uses to support many of his opinions.

 

[Aus Rotten]

I like both of your arguments, I dont understand the need for about 80% of the car options anyway. Thanks for your passion

 

[Wolfe]

I can respect your assessment of my and the blogger's writing, D-N, but I still disagree.

In most cases, it should be fairly obvious where I'm using hyperbole, and where I'm just using vague words to roughly describe quantities or numbers that I couldn't be arsed to look up myself (I can be lazy that way).

This should be a very obvious example of hyperbole:

The only reason why america's marque list is so long is because PD felt the need to put anything that was even 1% american into that list, and also because american manufacturers like to build cars under 50 billion different company names.

This, however, is an example of honest opinion, but using words that only approximate, rather than define:

Much of the rest of the European lineup consists of cars that are closely related to each other...
...There are some historic cars included, but they often go without their contemporary rivals, and sometimes can't really be matched up with anything else.

If you disagree with the first part of that second quote, that's fine. "Closely related" could mean one of any number of things, and in my case, it encompasses "much" of the European lineup. What "much" means is, again, vague, but you can bet that it represents what I consider to be a significant amount. That's really the only thing that matters -- that I think it's significant.

Aside from the obvious hyperbole, I really do believe what I say (otherwise I wouldn't say it). I'm not attempting to mislead or misdirect -- I calls 'em as I sees 'em, and if you see it differently, then you see it differently. That's really all it comes down to, and we should be able to respectfully disagree with each other.

One thing I would like to add is that exaggerated positive comments regarding GT4 probably annoy me just as much as my and the blogger's writing annoys you. There are two sides to everything, you know. Just like how you can't understand why I hate GT4 so much, I can't understand for the life of me why everyone and their little brother worships it like it's the god of everything that revolves around cars (a bit of hyperbole again). Am I not entitled to the same exasperation and bewilderment that you seem to hold towards people like the blogger and myself? Am I not entitled to "force feed" my opinions to people at less than a hundredth (probably much less) of the capacity by which the majority of the gaming public "force feeds" their positive opinions of GT4 to me?

I'm not a troll. I don't proclaim "GT4 sucks" because I think it's fun (that's what the hyperbole and similar jokes are for -- fun), or to get a reaction out of people. I also don't post my opinions "over and over again" to pester anyone or force feed anything. I do it because threads die over time, and disappear. That's part of the natural process of forums. If I want my opinion to be heard (and who doesn't?), then I post a reply to any new thread about GT4 that interests me, or any old thread that is revived with a new contribution to the discussion.

If I wanted to force my opinion on people, then I'd start my own threads listing my own gripes. However, if you go into my profile, I think you'll find that the only thread I've created that even had anything negative to say about GT4 was my Nürburgring thread, and even that's a stretch, because the only thing I had to say there was that GT4 didn't nail the corner geometry quite as good as Enthusia did, and I believe Scaff and a couple of others agree with me on that.

No, instead, I reply to threads that others create -- ones that either ask members for their opinions, or spur a discussion. I can't think of any logical reason why I should be barred from contributing to either of those.

In conclusion, Digital-Nitrate, it seems to me that the reason why you think my arguments are supported by nothing but gross exaggeration and misinformation is simply because A. you strongly disagree with me, and B. probably underestimate how much I dislike GT4. That's okay. It happens. I've had that feeling myself.

Just don't take that feeling as probable cause to announce to the forum that my words are to be disregarded entirely, okay?