- 16,102
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- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
The AI Worries Me... A Lot
- Thread starter ScottPuss20
- 122 comments
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- 50,871
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Same as the world Tour players above, PD have lap times from the maestro at ten circuits. How difficult is it to program those lap times to vary with awareness and slipstream?
I wonder if any AI programmers from other games, applied to PD. It would be like the auto industry where, someone from BMW jumps to Hyundai or Ford to Chrysler.
I wonder if any AI programmers from other games, applied to PD. It would be like the auto industry where, someone from BMW jumps to Hyundai or Ford to Chrysler.
- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Headhunting exists and is reasonably common among higher level professionals, especially ones with unique skills, talents or knowledge.
I'm sure Polyphony could put out the call to find someone and lure them with an exorbitant salary if they wanted. Polyphony isn't exactly broke, and you'd think that having good AI would be pretty central to having a good racing game.
I know I've already said it in this thread and others but it still baffles me how PD were able to get away with releasing a racing game in 2013 that didn't contain any proper racing in the primary single player mode. Playing catch up to slow AI was OK in arcade games and actual arcade units in the 1990s, it was totally unacceptable in the modern age. But somehow they got a pass on it, broadly speaking.
- 5,662
- Ulricehamn
With all the data they have you could just snag real drivers behaviour and put it in.
- 1,874
- United States
You know I think it is pretty plain that although Polyphony Digital compared to many studio's that produce racing games is probably one of the largest studios and I would guess one with some of the highest financial backing it seems apparently they do not hire the best programmers or those that are the most informed as to what entails real automotive on track racing behavior.
Their in game AI performance is a joke compared to many other modern titles. But their programming deficiencies or lack of expertise also move as well to their tire/physic models, using single line rolling starting grids (rather than two abreast rolling starting grids like every other decent sim) in their competitive on line races, even those sporting the FIA moniker. Sort of a joke that when a 7th place starter on the grid is already 2+ seconds down to the leader when they cross the start line.
I think that the other studio's by the look of things are just hiring more capable employees with a better knowledge of real world racing and the ability to recreate that in a virtual digital environment.
I think the last I heard Polyphony digital had over 170 employees while the interview just done by this site with Kunos which produces ACC I believe I heard they were running about 25 full time employees. Who seems to be doing the most with less if my employment figures are indeed correct.
Gran Turismo needs some changes in the management to bring that franchise into really being able to compete with the other modern titles.
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- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
I'm sure there are more than a few racing games that decided to omit difficulty. Probably even more modern ones than Enthusia. The point is that it became a standard feature for good reason, and has been a standard feature in racing games and other genres for a long, long time. That Polyphony still refuse to use a perfectly functional good solution to a problem that clearly exists in their game is baffling.
It's like having cupboards full of cutlery and crockery and continuing to eat your dinner off the floor with your hands. I mean, technically the food is getting into your mouth and you're not starving to death but JFC.
I don't think the AI will need set difficulty options for the career mode to be a balanced challenge for the majority of players
In RPGs, the level of difficulty for the player is often just built into the game design itself with the character/equipment levelling system. Dark Souls, for example, can range from a hellish nightmare to a total cakewalk depending on whether your character and gear are under or over-levelled for the area you've reached
I think upgrading parts through the tuning shop could function along those lines for GT7. If a player is struggling to beat the AI racing stock, they can either practice until they 'git gud' and can, or swallow their pride and spend the credits earned from all the disappointing finishes on upgrades. Repeat until the car is fast enough to overcome the player's skill deficit
Although for this to work in practice the AI would have to be improved to the point where winning in a stock vehicle of the same class is some challenge to the vast majority of players. And obviously it's nowhere close in GT sport. There would also probably need to be tighter restrictions on which cars can enter each race, so you can't just pick a car that is already massively OP in stock
In RPGs, the level of difficulty for the player is often just built into the game design itself with the character/equipment levelling system. Dark Souls, for example, can range from a hellish nightmare to a total cakewalk depending on whether your character and gear are under or over-levelled for the area you've reached
I think upgrading parts through the tuning shop could function along those lines for GT7. If a player is struggling to beat the AI racing stock, they can either practice until they 'git gud' and can, or swallow their pride and spend the credits earned from all the disappointing finishes on upgrades. Repeat until the car is fast enough to overcome the player's skill deficit
Although for this to work in practice the AI would have to be improved to the point where winning in a stock vehicle of the same class is some challenge to the vast majority of players. And obviously it's nowhere close in GT sport. There would also probably need to be tighter restrictions on which cars can enter each race, so you can't just pick a car that is already massively OP in stock
- 1,874
- United States
But the point is you take a stock vehicle and three different players of different skill levels then for each player to experience the same level of challenge the AI needs to be at a different level for their speed and skillset.
Otherwise only maybe one driver gets the challenge level they desire.
The practice til you get gud for the beginner will run him away from the game while the advanced player the AI may never challenge them and if it did the beginner is totally not going to quit playing,
AI needs to have an adjustibility from helping the beginner improve and offering both mid level and top level players a challenge.
And in most RPG games I have played there are multiple difficulty levels and usually you can avoid the big fights until you are leveled up enough to have a decent chance, totally different scenario that does not cross over well to racing.
But my point is with the tuning/upgrade system in GT7, we will have the choice to not race in stock. Let's say a top level player can win a race in a stock vehicle that feels to them about 7 or 8/10 on the challenge scale, an intermediate player might have to spend let's say 10k credits upgrading their car to reach the same perceived level of challenge. A beginner might have to spend 20k credits to experience that level of challenge. But all 3 players will still be able to win all career mode races, at a challenge level they have control over and is constantly adjustable, with all 3 racing against AI of the same speed.
It might cheapen the beginner/intermediate's sense of accomplishment a little to beat the game relying on upgrades, but I doubt any more than literally selecting an easier difficulty setting would. And provides incentive to replay the career mode and improve
Having AI difficulty settings on top of the upgrades players can make to their own cars just seems like an unnecessary complication to me. PD really just need to focus on how to make their AI competitive with reasonably high level GT players without simply boosting their speed on straights
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But there is no reason a player of any skill level should not be able to race a car in stock trim and have a race against the AI that is competitive.
Same reason that an experienced player should not be limited to using a stock vehicle that garners a slower lap time than an upgraded vehicle and still be able to experience the same level of competition from the AI.
Your way takes away and limits a players options based on their skill set when racing the AI. It does not give the players more options.
Plenty of other racing games accomplish this task with no problems and most run out of a much smaller and less financed studio's than GT.
Not looking to see GT do anything not already being done in other games here.
QUOTE="Thrillho, post: 13350058, member: 316795"]But my point is with the tuning/upgrade system in GT7, we will have the choice to not race in stock. Let's say a top level player can win a race in a stock vehicle that feels to them about 7 or 810 on the challenge scale, an intermediate player might have to spend let's say 10k credits upgrading their car to reach the same perceived level of challenge. A beginner might have to spend 20k credits to experience that level of challenge. But all 3 players will still be able to win all career mode races, at a challenge level they have control over and is constantly adjustable, with all 3 racing against AI of the same speed.
It might cheapen the beginner/intermediate's sense of accomplishment a little to beat the game relying on upgrades, but I doubt any more than literally selecting an easier difficulty setting would. And provides incentive to replay the career mode and improve
Having AI difficulty settings on top of the upgrades players can make to their own cars just seems like an unnecessary complication to me. PD really just need to focus on how to make their AI competitive with reasonably high level GT players without simply boosting their speed on straights[/QUOTE]
Now how does that work with racing classes and one make events? Why should I have to for example down tune my GT500 car because when equal to the AI i walk over them, and have no option to speed them up?
Also even with upgrades there is the problem you've always had, not knowing just how much you need to upgrade to get a fair challenge, you just have to guess. Go too overboard and it's made easy, but you only find out once it's done.
Fixed AI difficultly levels and tight event restrictions solve that problem. A racing game is never an RPG in terms of the actual gameplay, it shouldn't be treated as one.
It might cheapen the beginner/intermediate's sense of accomplishment a little to beat the game relying on upgrades, but I doubt any more than literally selecting an easier difficulty setting would. And provides incentive to replay the career mode and improve
Having AI difficulty settings on top of the upgrades players can make to their own cars just seems like an unnecessary complication to me. PD really just need to focus on how to make their AI competitive with reasonably high level GT players without simply boosting their speed on straights[/QUOTE]
Now how does that work with racing classes and one make events? Why should I have to for example down tune my GT500 car because when equal to the AI i walk over them, and have no option to speed them up?
Also even with upgrades there is the problem you've always had, not knowing just how much you need to upgrade to get a fair challenge, you just have to guess. Go too overboard and it's made easy, but you only find out once it's done.
Fixed AI difficultly levels and tight event restrictions solve that problem. A racing game is never an RPG in terms of the actual gameplay, it shouldn't be treated as one.
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- 50,871
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
The AI difficulty and aggressive settings in other games, works. It's that adjustability PD need for their games.
Simulation Mode looks to be returning. Leave the Beginner, Intermediate, Professional settings for Arcade Mode. That can simplify it for new GT players that never driven a car. Equip Simulation Mode, with adjustable AI.
Going back to this: https://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-y...i-plays-in-gt-sports-bop-and-penalty-systems/
I'd rather AI be good at ALL the tracks & corners and that they make errors. Not navigate certain corners they're not good at=slam the brakes. I see PD have programmed some AI to overshoot corners, when I late brake into a corner.
https://youtu.be/NOfwveOR_sk
This is the worse. Imagine if I tuned my car.
https://youtu.be/ZMUBkc1CKIc
PD need the AI programmer to rewrite the whole thing script for GT7.
Simulation Mode looks to be returning. Leave the Beginner, Intermediate, Professional settings for Arcade Mode. That can simplify it for new GT players that never driven a car. Equip Simulation Mode, with adjustable AI.
Going back to this: https://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-y...i-plays-in-gt-sports-bop-and-penalty-systems/
Yes, we know this. Bathurst have such "certain corners".
I'd rather AI be good at ALL the tracks & corners and that they make errors. Not navigate certain corners they're not good at=slam the brakes. I see PD have programmed some AI to overshoot corners, when I late brake into a corner.
https://youtu.be/NOfwveOR_sk
This is the worse. Imagine if I tuned my car.
https://youtu.be/ZMUBkc1CKIc
PD need the AI programmer to rewrite the whole thing script for GT7.
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Lower and mid level players should still be able to have competitive races racing stock vs AI, they just can't expect to finish 1st without practice and improvement first. As long as the entire field hasn't driven away from you, finishing lower or mid pack is still a competitive, enjoyable race - and is good practice. It also can't be realistic to expect PD to develop a level of AI which, driving stock vehicles, are capable of challenging already high level players who are driving upgraded ones - without just doing something crude like massively boosting their straight line speed
Perhaps, but PD haven't yet developed any driver AI which feels balanced and life-like, how realistic is it to expect them to manage it for several different difficulty points within the next year or so?
That's why GT's AI would have to be improved so as to be a similar pace to quite high level players. No down tuning should be needed for the vast majority of players to have a competitive race, unless you're a top level alien - in which case are there any racing games with AI that can provide a genuine challenge without down tuning yourself?
Agreed, but isn't that an issue with selective difficulty levels too though? How do you know exactly how fast 'Amateur', 'Pro', 'Intermediate' etc AI are comparative to yourself until after you've actually raced them?
I mean tbh I wouldn't be at all against several fixed difficulty levels for AI if PD could pull it off. I just don't feel it's realistic given GTs history, and the lack of any signs of improvement in GT Sport, even after many updates. And given the choice I'd rather they develop just one high quality and believable level of AI, which we can adapt to with car upgrades if needed, than several unbalanced and unrealistic levels which kill any immersion
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Scaff
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Why isn't it realistic when the majority of other titles have managed to do just that?
That, to be honest, is entirely PD's issue. They have literally had decades to do this, and never seen it as a priority, as such having a year or less to do it, well that's down to PD's priorities. Personally, I think we will end up with more sub-par AI and 'chase the rabbit' scenarios'.
- 1,471
- Texas
- JoshsoJB
It took PD around 16 years to finally start getting serious with the sounds with the advent of AES in the GT6 times. And now in GTS we have realistic shifting delay to go along with that the bar is so low, I know. I don't think all hope is lost for a core part of the game like this to change for the better, even at this point. Yeah!
Hahaha...haha...ha...just trying to breathe some optimism into this general hopelessness surrounding GT7.
Hahaha...haha...ha...just trying to breathe some optimism into this general hopelessness surrounding GT7.
Scaff
Moderator
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- 882
- Spain
Who cares so much about AI anyway, since a playing with other human players will always be better...
No matter if its better or worse, AI has no soul, its very boring to play against it.
No matter if its better or worse, AI has no soul, its very boring to play against it.
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- 151
- Hungary
Well, I was playing GTS yesterday when I decided to make a Porsche 356 One make on the wet Tokyo. It was the inner loop of Central. When I approached the 2nd car, he went for a defensive line at the end of the "back straight" and I ended up in his back because he was parking on the apex. I checked it in the replay and his line changing looked pretty intentional.
I'm not saying anything besides the current A.I. but there might be something in the algorythm. It's just too slow.
Needless to say, it was set to professional.
I'm not saying anything besides the current A.I. but there might be something in the algorythm. It's just too slow.
Needless to say, it was set to professional.
Because not everyone enjoys online play, myself included. A good AI can be very engaging and fun, as it was in many games before online gaming existed. It's just never been great in GT.
Playing with other humans is not "always better".
Good AI don't divebomb you with no intention of braking and ruin your race.
Good AI don't generally drive like a tool because they're hotheaded or like being annoying.
Good AI don't suddenly become godlike or terrible depending on who is the race.
Good AI are always there, even at 3am on a weekday or 15 years from now when the game is long abandoned by online players, and the servers turned off.
If GT5 and GT6 didn't have AI they would just be coasters now, with no online play.
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Silver Arrows
(Banned)
- 4,715
- Brandon, MB
- Silver-Arrows21
lmfao
You really don't think that the AI matters in a racing game? When the only way GT stays relevant in the general space by offering an actual, full fledged career mode, and something they are cynically added to GT Sport, and are trumpeting in GT7, is with an actual single player and not just arcade races and a rip off of iRacing's core mechanics for online play? AI absolutely matters when what has been given for years is absolutely moronic.
So yeah. Typical ******** to keep Polyphony off the hook.
- 5,662
- Ulricehamn
As important it is to some it's totally irrelevant to others. One opinion is no more valid than the other.
- 1,471
- Texas
- JoshsoJB
I've personally come to slightly prefer online play because the idea that the A.I. might or might not be using a simplified, easier physics model to be able to present a challenge weighs on my mind as I'm racing them. I'm thinking "what's the point if we're not on the same playing field?" the whole time. But some tight action between the A.I. can flip my "whatever" button and I can have fun. So yeah, expending the time and resources for a strong online and offline mode are worth it; neither should be neglected or are better or worse than the other.
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What are you talking about. It has nothing to do with defending polyphony. Grow up.
It used to be important when you didnt have online mode so playing against AI is the only thing we had.
Learn to play against others and you will realise how boring the AI is. No soul, too predictable, too dull.
And I'm not talking about sport mode, but lobbies. In lobbies you have power to kick off dirty players.
