The American Revolution

[Danoff]

It's a funny link between the U.S. and the U.K.

Over there you don't hear much about your loss in the American Revolution, just as much as we don't here about Vietnam. (to be fair, we get a lot about Vietnam, but in the wrong way. Our systems try really hard to keep the "kick ass and chew bubble gum motif")

It's also funny how the U.K. was a nation all up in everyone's business back then, kind of how the U.S. is today. Shoving their noses where it doesn't belong.

It's awfully depressing the kids over there don't learn more about history. My teacher said it straight once, "People will be more interested if you know facts about history than algebraic functions."

I also don't get how you can just stop learning history. History is the most important subject. All the others (language arts, mathematics, science) focus on a specific sector of our world used by certain people who use it for job criteria. Should I know why the Niagara Falls receded 7.5mi due to erosion causing shale to undermine the more resilient dolomite? No. But should I know about the past, present, and future of my world? Yes.

And in fact, it all falls back on history. Advances in science are a historic moment. But do historic moments advance science? Nope.

I also am more challenged when history isn't just dates. Our world is so much more than "1946".

Wow, you're so wrong all over the place in this post.

History is not the most important subject, that would be science. People might be more interested if you know facts about history than algebraic functions, but there's a reason that you don't get hired to work by knowing facts about history, knowing algebra on the otherhand...

History is excellent context, being familiar with it is a good way to understand the nature of man and societies. It's a good way to understand the significance of what is happening today. It is NOT generally a good way of actually producing anything at all, and that's why history majors struggle to find jobs. It's better to be an engineer who reads a few history books than a history major who can't read books about engineering.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

Well I never said people make jobs out of history. Yes, it is hard to make a job by being an expert on historic details. But it's the most important IMO because everything that happens in our world, whether related to literature, mathematics, or science, is a part of history. History isn't just politics and war, it's everything that's happened in the past, present, and can determine the future.

Out of all the jobs requiring those 4 main subjects, science is probably the most important. But that's only if you use it to make money. To just sit in your house and know why your table isn't floating isn't really something needed to understand. You know the table's on the floor, whether you care about the laws of gravity or not.

The same with mathematics. Only people with relevant jobs need more than just high school level math. It's their job to know how to do it and relate it to something that needs answered. But in my life, say I sit home with bills and whatnot, I'll need some basic math skills and sometimes a little more. How often do we use math, especially high-level math, in our home lives?

 

[Stevisiov]

Wow, you're so wrong all over the place in this post.

History is not the most important subject, that would be science. People might be more interested if you know facts about history than algebraic functions, but there's a reason that you don't get hired to work by knowing facts about history, knowing algebra on the otherhand...

History is excellent context, being familiar with it is a good way to understand the nature of man and societies. It's a good way to understand the significance of what is happening today. It is NOT generally a good way of actually producing anything at all, and that's why history majors struggle to find jobs. It's better to be an engineer who reads a few history books than a history major who can't read books about engineering.

This.

History is definitely a useful tool, looking at what happened in the past can often help us make better informed decisions in the future. In that sense its very valuable.

Science is at the heart of what is most valuable to our culture, Science ensures that we actually move forward, improve our understanding of the world as it is and as it will be. Not just how it used to be.

Now looking at the history of science is actually very interesting, it can help give an appreciation of what science is all about, its always interesting to see how our understanding of the world has changed over time. At the turn of the 20th century we still thought that we lived in a static universe. We hadn't flown an aircraft, fast forward 60 years or so and we have people walking on the moon. It was culmination in advances is mathematics, science and engineering. It's a truly magnificent achievement, looking into the past would not achieve that goal.

[edit]

Well I never said people make jobs out of history. Yes, it is hard to make a job by being an expert on historic details. But it's the most important IMO because everything that happens in our world, whether related to literature, mathematics, or science, is a part of history. History isn't just politics and war, it's everything that's happened in the past, present, and can determine the future.

I agree that history is valuable to us. It's basically experience, and we would be foolish not to refer back to history to make informed decisions about our future.

Out of all the jobs requiring those 4 main subjects, science is probably the most important. But that's only if you use it to make money. To just sit in your house and know why your table isn't floating isn't really something needed to understand. You know the table's on the floor, whether you care about the laws of gravity or not.

I really couldn't disagree with this more.

Sitting in your living room, is it really essential that you understand why the Roman empire collapsed?

If you just randomly pick some arbitrary facet of science, obviously its not going to apply to your life at every given point. Instead of looking at our understanding of how gravity works on earth, why don't you stop and take a look around your living room?

Perhaps you have TV sat in the corner of your room? Have you ever stopped and wondered how it actually works? Perhaps you have thought about the time and consideration that has gone into each an every aspect of designing it, all of it is carefully engineered. Have you thought about the scientific principles involved? of which, a lack of understanding would make the possibility of making a TV impossible. Perhaps you've thought about the endless research that goes into the electronics involved that constantly drives improvements in TV's year after year? Or do you just look at your TV and accept it works because it works and that's all there is to it? I'm assuming for you its the latter, because anyone who really appreciated the level of mathematics, Science and Engineering that goes into even common items such as TV's, would never underestimate exactly how valuable they are to us. It doesn't just stop at TV's, look around your room and you will find that almost everything you own has been carefully engineered.

You are so hopelessly dependant on science and technology and you never even realised it. It's not just about TV's and leisure, think about your car, imagine the world as it is today without cars, vans, trains, planes. How would the world possibly run? 6 billion people live in this world, its far over the amount of people that should be able to exist on this planet, yet they do. If you removed our knowledge of science in technology tomorrow, almost all of us would die, mostly through starvation alone. It's not just you who is hopelessly dependant on science, its all of us we simply cannot exist as we do today without it, it really is that valuable.

Science is not just valuable for making money as it is has so crudely been put above. It's about understanding the world we live in, and that understanding allows us to shape and sculpt that world for the better.

 

[Keef]

The fact is that pretty much every subject in school is valuable and intertwined with all the others. Well, except political science. But other than that, having a solid base knowledge of everything is important, and that's why you don't start to specialize until halfway through college, on the road to whatever career you're focusing on. A major problem is that people simply don't know much of anything except how to do laundry, buy new jeans, and pay their taxes on time. Those are by far the most important aspects of life.

EDIT: Bad example about paying taxes. That actually is very important unless you want your house raided by the Special Forces.

 

[DK]

The fact is that pretty much every subject in school is valuable and intertwined with all the others.

That rule doesn't apply over here. I've been learning Irish for nearly 12 years and I still can't speak it, and it is spoken by around 2% of our population AFAIK.

On the subject, I chose History as one of my optional subjects. I now need to write a long-ass essay on the Russian Civil War over Easter. If anyone can find good quotes from Allied leaders (e.g. Woodrow Wilson, Lloyd George, Churchill - yes, he was around back then) about the Russian Civil War and examples of Soviet anti-Allies propaganda, let me know, it will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Stevisiov]

The fact is that pretty much every subject in school is valuable and intertwined with all the others. Well, except political science. But other than that, having a solid base knowledge of everything is important, and that's why you don't start to specialize until halfway through college, on the road to whatever career you're focusing on. A major problem is that people simply don't know much of anything except how to do laundry, buy new jeans, and pay their taxes on time. Those are by far the most important aspects of life.

EDIT: Bad example about paying taxes. That actually is very important unless you want your house raided by the Special Forces.

While this is very much true, there are a few key area's that its important to have a base knowledge in, although some are arguably more important than others. Drama, Music and Art were on our curriculum, I would argue a base knowledge in those areas are less important than say a base knowledge in language and sciences.

 

[Keef]

That rule doesn't apply over here. I've been learning Irish for nearly 12 years and I still can't speak it, and it is spoken by around 2% of our population AFAIK.

While it's great to understand your country's heritage and traditional language and whatnot, wasting time on a subject that is near as can be extinct is just that, a waste of time. In Alaska many people can speak native Eskimo languages, and in many villages out in the wilderness that is the dominant language. But of course, it is the dominant language there. Same thing with American Indians. There are many different tribes and many different languages, and there are still areas around the country where the culture and language is dominant. I'm sure there are areas like that in Ireland where people still speak Irish dominantly.

I've never learned Eskimo or American Indian languages because I don't need to. Making an entire population waste their time on something they literally will never use is just depriving them of a decent education. While it's fantastic to keep alive the native language and culture of your people, it's none of the government's business to decide to whom it should be taught. If you want to learn it, learn it. If not, don't.

While this is very much true, there are a few key area's that its important to have a base knowledge in, although some are arguably more important than others. Drama, Music and Art were on our curriculum, I would argue a base knowledge in those areas are less important than say a base knowledge in language and sciences.

Drama is useful in daily life, especially in professional settings, helping people with language skills, presentation, communication, etc. I'm not exactly the smoothest person in the world so I'm sure a few years of drama classes would be of great benefit.

As for art, keep in mind that products don't go to market until they've passed through marketing and advertising. People gravitate toward things that look good. Employers' eyes are caught by resumes that are visually attractive, even if they're covered with BS. A little design sense goes a long way, especially when I, for example, am dressing up for my interview with Delta Airlines.

But aren't you some sort of engineer? Of course an engineer would look down on all the artsy fartsy stuff!

 

[drivehard]

"I've never learned Eskimo or American Indian languages because I don't need to. Making an entire population waste their time on something they literally will never use is just depriving them of a decent education."

 

[Keef]

?

Also, use the quote button. Holy crap, 480 posts later, use the damn quote button.

 

[drivehard]

How do I quote only a fraction of a post? Is there a way other then deleting hundreds of characters?

I use to have a friend that felt he didn't need to wash his hands after using the bathroom before preparing a meal.

 

[Keef]

How do I quote only a fraction of a post? Is there a way other then deleting hundreds of characters?

No. You have to manually manipulate the quotes by splitting them and adding tags and whatnot. It can get annoying with very long posts, but for this one it took me an extra minute.

I use to have a friend that felt he didn't need to wash his hands after using the bathroom before preparing a meal.

I'm not understanding your point here. You're comparing something you need to do to something you don't need to do. Explain to me why I need to spend 12 years learning a near-extinct language when I will never use it and might never even encounter it for the rest of my life.

 

[BobK]

Drag mouse to highlight, then hit delete key. Quick and easy.

 

[drivehard]

What and how do you add tags? I really would like to know how you use the quote feature then use it later on down in your post. I've tried pasting the text and then typing

around it but it didn't do the trick.

You don't need to learn any language. Nor do you need to wash your hands...I just dislike the idea of people whining about "having" to learn other languages when actually does you a great deal of good.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/benefits-of-learning-a-second-language.html

 

[Joel]

You don't need to learn any language. Nor do you need to wash your hands...I just dislike the idea of people whining about "having" to learn other languages when actually does you a great deal of good.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/benefits-of-learning-a-second-language.html

Learning a second language is great, but why not let people actually choose which one they want? Here in Canada we do the same, everyone has to learn French, but few people really want to. I wanted to learn French, so I've continued taking French classes at school even though I don't have to anymore. If people want to learn a language, they will, but if they're being forced to, they're just going to learn enough to pass a test and forget it all later anyway. Especially with nearly dead languages like Keef was talking about. At least with French I have realistic opportunities to use it.

 

[drivehard]

Learning a second language is great, but why not let people actually choose which one they want? Here in Canada we do the same, everyone has to learn French, but few people really want to. I wanted to learn French, so I've continued taking French classes at school even though I don't have to anymore. If people want to learn a language, they will, but if they're being forced to, they're just going to learn enough to pass a test and forget it all later anyway. Especially with nearly dead languages like Keef was talking about. At least with French I have realistic opportunities to use it.

All I'm saying is that the benifits go beyond utility. And the mindstate that says "all that is valuable must be useful" is a sign of low quality of life.

 

[Azuremen]

All I'm saying is that the benifits go beyond utility. And the mindstate that says "all that is valuable must be useful" is a sign of low quality of life.

But people should be able to choose what they learn. Benefits may go beyond utility, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time learning an effectively dead language that has no bearing on what I do.

And that analogy with washing one's hands is just terrible. Health dictates you generally should wash your hands when preparing food in general; and I know all about that, working for the health department at my university.

 

[drivehard]

I agree people should be able to choose and I would love to learn Latin although it's dead.

Sorry.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

Wait, when'd it get so off topic in here?

About languages, I'm in the Noob616 boat. I've learned French for a year now because I can and I enjoy it. Will I ever use it? Maybe. It's a nice thing to know. I won't get a job by speaking French but I can operate without offending French people if I go to France. BUT, it may have been my choice, but colleges here in the country of kicking ass and chewing bubblegum, require 2 or 3 years of languages. So yeah, you kind of have to, but you can find a choice you like.

-------------------

Can we get back on task now? We went from the American Revolution to the application of history to a language debate.

 

[Keef]

I agree people should be able to choose and I would love to learn Latin although it's dead.

Sorry.

Latin isn't dead. Scientific names for most things are based on latin words. Latin is a very important language in the scientific community.

 

[Cheeky?]

Being in the US, I have never heard of that war.
Then again, it's a war that we aren't involved in, and therefore we don't give a damn.

Ah well, back to chewing bubble gum and kicking ass now that I've been enlightened.

Where do you think the IRA got a lot of their money and other support from?

 

[gogatrs]

OK, let's get back on topic here.
Forget the education part of it.
What does everyone think of the revolution?
Do any of you non bubble gum chewing, kick ass people feel that it would be better if we had not broken away?

 

[Keef]

Do any of you non bubble gum chewing, kick ass people feel that it would be better if we had not broken away?

That's an interesting question. I don't think I've ever heard that asked before lol.

I wish I could go back in time and live in that era and feel what the people of the time felt in the years preceding the Revolution. The problems they were dealing with don't seem as potentially catastrophic as the problems we're dealing with today. I'd like to see how society operated back then, and how people thought, and maybe bring that into the society of today. I can't even imagine what it would take to convince so many average people to band together, guns in hand, and battle with one of the largest armies in the world at that time. The problems of today are pretty serious, and yet I would be blown away if I heard rumors about a group looking to start another revolution. How bad does life have to be to take that step?

 

[Danoff]

Do any of you non bubble gum chewing, kick ass people feel that it would be better if we had not broken away?

Nope.

In fact, I think England has benefited from US democracy quite substantially.

What the US created when we wrote our constitution is too important not only to our own lives, but to the world, to consider it having been better for us to help keep a monarchy alive.

Too bad we've forgotten everything we stood for.

 

[icelt]

Too bad we've forgotten everything we stood for.

Damn near it seems like sometimes. I try to debate the side that our "values," as laid out in the Bill of Rights and Constitution, are ultimately more important than the lives of individuals. As the longer the values endure unsoiled the greater the benefit to every generation born underneath them. However as soon as the values are watered down or made exception for, I'm looking at you 4th amendment, then its just a slow decay until they become effectively meaningless. Naturally I don't get too far though.

 

[DK]

Where do you think the IRA got a lot of their money and other support from?

They mostly made money through robbing banks, and from sympathetic Irish-Americans sending money over. And let's not forget the help they had from Libya.

As for support, they received that when many Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland lost faith in democratic parties being able to end the Unionist-supported discrimination against Catholics. Therefore, they turned to supporting the IRA in the hope that their violent campaigns would make the British take notice, and that they would hit their Unionist oppressors hard.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'm very surprised that a lot of time isn't spent on the American Revolution over there. Though it isn't the brightest spot in British history, it would be an excellent lesson on what not to do.

I long suspected there were gaps in European history lessons. Haven't you ever noticed that a large number of people from other countries act as if we invented slavery? It seems to never occur to many that we had slavery because it was brought here by the countries that colonized the continent.

See, that's interesting...Throughout my schooling "History" is taught in small bits and pieces until around 4th Grade, where you usually take a multitude of required courses: A State history course, followed by a basic U.S. history course the next year. Then World History in 6th grade, Geography in 7th (sort of like World History-lite), U.S. History in 8th. Freshman year was World History once more, Sophomore year was Economics and Civics, Junior year was U.S. History (again), and our Senior year was an optional Contemporary History (post-WWII world history) class that wasn't actually required (to be honest, half of it was going over the newspaper and other news-of-the-day). College even required a single History of Civilization course for everyone, regardless of major (many topics on world history again, which sort of stopped around 1900 or so).

So we get the History thing pounded into our heads for many years, sort of like taking most Algebra courses, it just goes a bit deeper each year; funny how I never took too much interest in History until after it was no longer required.

This reflects my education as well. And in my college required history course the stuff we learned was about the same level as what I learned in 8th grade. I actually started skipping every day but the test. After one test got handed back and I got an A and this girl next to me (she was a cheerleader) had a D. She got mad because I was never there and she studied non-stop. I just said it was stuff I learned in 8th grade and I don't need to be there to pass the class with a good grade.

Indeed, for me that's true of just about every subject. Except drama, I still couldn't give a damn about drama.

Bit dramatic, don't you think?

Do any of you non bubble gum chewing, kick ass people feel that it would be better if we had not broken away?

No. We are screwed up now when a group of guys (and a few womens) on the east coast pretend they know what is best for everyone in all 50 states, and do so on many issues that are not specifically a power granted to them as a power grab. Imagine having the same situation from a group of guys on the other side of the globe who might not have ever stepped foot on this continent.

 

[ChadSpeed]

I still don't like America

Your in PA and you don't like America........then why are you here? Why do you not like America?

 

[FoolKiller]

Your in PA and you don't like America........then why are you here? Why do you not like America?

He's 14.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

He's 14.

Canada isn't that far...

Nah still have Border Control.

 

[Famine]

It's awfully depressing the kids over there don't learn more about history.

I'd argue that they do - they just don't learn more about your history.

Kids in British schools learn about the histories and the cultures that are directly relevant to the formation and demographics of Britain. We don't have "world history" and "British history" in the same manner than US schools would have "world history" and "US history" (or even "state history"). We may invoke local sites in history lessons, but then the UK is littered with Roman, Viking, Norman and even Civil War sites - it's part of the whole. We just have "history".

My 9 year old is currently learning about the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, which is pushing for five thousand years ago (basically Bronze Age stuff). I recall doing similar when I was her age. She's spent about half a year on each.


Short of A-levels (16-18 years) and degree courses, we don't learn too much about any specific period - all you can cram into 4 hours a week for three months - but it covers five thousand years of cumulative heritage.

With respect to US history - and I will add that I'm often impressed with how much Americans know of their own country's history and geography, compared to how little Brits know of their own country's history and geography - there's just not that much of it. I was at Fort Jefferson recently and we opted to explore the park ourselves rather than the guided history tour. The park guides agreed that, being Brits, we were probably used to much, much more history behind things (we pointed out the 11th Century church at the bottom of our street) and, with the history of the fort being largely Caribbean piracy and US Civil War, probably not all that interesting to us. We still enjoyed the place though (along with several others from the Seminole wars).