The Carmagedonn Thread: FCA and "Consolidation"

[Tornado]

I read something similar. The article I read talked about how if GM could slim their brands (in America) to Cadillac, Chevy and Saturn, they might be able to avoid bankruptcy. The catch-22 comes from the fact that they would probably need to declare bankruptcy to get away with it.

Either way, if this ship goes down, my whole state is going with them

As will everything east of the Mississippi (in America and possibly in Canada as well).

 

[Omnis]

But the best option is bankruptcy. Why try to avoid it? Their business model is totally backwards. They're just asking for our money, and when they get it they'll declare bankruptcy anyway.

It would be just the thing they need to restructure and escape the clutches of the UAW. The big three didn't tank Michigan, unions did.

 

[YSSMAN]

UAW workers would disagree with you, but those of us who never bought into it are absolutely certain that it is the case. If they declare bankruptcy, they could easily scratch all of the UAW folks out and bring everyone back in for $15.00 an hour with minimal benefits. Ditch Hummer, dump whats left of Isuzu and Suzuki, get rid of AC Delco and get down to the nitty-gritty. Chevrolet (with models slashed), Pontiac, Buick, Saab and Cadillac.

 

[buickgnx88]

Well the passenger side of Isuzu is pretty much gone, all that's left is the commercial side, so you can ignore them. I agree that Hummer should be sold, and I think they should once again be a standalone company. Suzuki ditch.
Here's my take on the rest of the brands.
Chevy-the main, mostly conservative brand with the SS trim being the only sportiness. Have all HD models be under Chevy, get rid of the Aveo, Cobalt, Trailblazer, and Equinox. Also tone down the LTZ level for the Tahoe/Suburban and distance it from the Escalade in terms of luxury and price.
GMC-Dump, same as Chevrolet trucks.
Pontiac-Midgrade sportiness, all models have variable sport suspension with top of the line GXP models. Drop G5.
Buick-Comfort/Luxury, lose the V8's in the sedans (upgrade the V6's) and keep them marketing towards people who want comfort over performance, but at a lower price.
Cadillac-High performance/Luxury, lose the STS and just have the CTS as their midsize. Also turn the XLR into a more niche car, have only a certain amount built, and not off the Corvette chassis.
Saturn-Low cost budget brand, like it used to be. Lose the Outlook and Sky, and offer another version of the Cobalt/G5 alongside the Astra so there would be a range of body styles (add in a convertible version as well). Also have a version of the Aveo here and reinclude the plastic body panels on all vehicles.
Saab-Should try to sell off.

 

[Jim Prower]

Suzuki's actually doing well on their own, almost autonomously, of GM. In fact, the only shared product I can think of in their 2009 range (There are no longer any Daewoos) is a rebadged Suzuki Wagon R for Chevrolet Japan, the Chevy MW.

Oh, and Suzuki now has a rebadged Nissan Frontier in their lineup, the Equator.

 

[Tornado]

No no no no no! Kill Buick. All the brand does is make some of the Cadillac range seen overpriced. Yet they still don't sell any of them in meaningful numbers.
GM would be better off holding on to Hummer than pumping more money into Buick.

 

[Keef]

UAW workers would disagree with you, but those of us who never bought into it are absolutely certain that it is the case. If they declare bankruptcy, they could easily scratch all of the UAW folks out and bring everyone back in for $15.00 an hour with minimal benefits. Ditch Hummer, dump whats left of Isuzu and Suzuki, get rid of AC Delco and get down to the nitty-gritty. Chevrolet (with models slashed), Pontiac, Buick, Saab and Cadillac.

Speaking of AC Delco...what's the deal with all these extra companies GM owns? AC Delco? They make parts right? Honda...makes their own parts. Mr. Goodwrench? The hell? Honda has...technicians. Ford's Motorcraft? What is the deal with these companies? Why doesn't Honda have all these strings attached?

 

[TheCracker]

Speaking of AC Delco...what's the deal with all these extra companies GM owns? AC Delco? They make parts right? Honda...makes their own parts. Mr. Goodwrench? The hell? Honda has...technicians. Ford's Motorcraft? What is the deal with these companies? Why doesn't Honda have all these strings attached?

Motorcraft, and i presume AC Delco, make parts and consumables for other brands other than Ford and GM. AC Delco hasn't always been a part of GM and had it's own well known brand image well before GM came on the scene and bought them.

 

[Keef]

Ah. I thought it was a company GM came up with to provide themselves with their own parts. Just trying to pin another screw up on GM!

 

[Greycap]

its volvos suv that is keeping it alive.

Err, no. It's the V70. While the SUV's may be the halo cars it's the good old wagon that brings the food to the table.

I think Volvo's biggest problem is that many people still have that image of a heavy and slow 240 wagon in their brains when they think of the company.

The image that is wrong as hell, the said 240 wagon weighs roughly the same as the new hatchback Golf TDI and up to 300 kg less than the new Mondeo. It's admittedly large but it's far from heavy for its size and cargo capacity.

Continuing with the Swedes, GM should just get rid of Saab instead of killing it. It used to be one of the most original car brands in the world and it could still be it today if the models weren't rebadged Opels with new sheet metal. The last true Saab was the old 900 and it was also the last one of them that was properly built.

 

[forza2.0]

Err, no. It's the V70. While the SUV's may be the halo cars it's the good old wagon that brings the food to the table.


Have you seen the volvo sales list?

Also rumours have it that GM are gonna end up in liquidation if the government doesnt bail em out.

 

[AOS-]

that's what happends when gas prices go up and still making gas guzzling monsters...

 

[Slicks]

My version of what GM needs to do:

Chevrolet
-Replace the Aveo with something that's not the Aveo. No Korean rebadging allowed.
-Keep the Cobalt. It's time to update it, though.
-Axe the HHR. It's redundant.
-Axe the Impala. Outdated and unpopular.
-Axe the Equinox and TrailBlazer.
-Axe the Uplander and come up with something new.
-Redesign the Colorado. Toyota sells lots of their crap, there is a market for it.
-Think about introducing a Malibu wagon as a crossover alternative.

Pontiac
-Axe the Wave.
-Update the G5. Introduce a GXP.
-Axe the G6
-Axe the Montana
-Axe the Torrent.

Buick
-Redesign the Allure. Completely.
-Update the Lucerne.

GMC
-It's a wash. They've always been the 'nicer' version of Chevy's trucks. Either differentiate it more, or axe it.

Saturn
-Saturn is fairly well positioned. Keep on top of the Aura, and don't let it fall out of date.

Hummer
-Goodbye. The military vehicle is at the end of its' lifespan, anyway.

Saab
-They may have a future, but it's not with GM. Sell and let them reinvent themselves.

Cadillac
-Axe the SRX.
-Axe the DTS.
-Update the STS
-Introduce a CTS wagon.

 

[YSSMAN]

Motorcraft, and i presume AC Delco, make parts and consumables for other brands other than Ford and GM. AC Delco hasn't always been a part of GM and had it's own well known brand image well before GM came on the scene and bought them.

Pretty much, but they do mostly cater to the needs of GM and Ford. Sad thing is that I haven't seen an ad for either of them in what feels like a decade.

==============

Bloomberg Says GM Can't File For Chapter 11, Would Be Forced Into Chapter 7 Liquidation

Well, isn't that an interesting side-note? If thats true, the only way to keep them around would be to secure federal financing, or have a suitor come in immediately to keep things running.

A big "uh oh" if we're to listen to John Cramer:

"Save GM... Or Risk Another Great Depression!"

He makes a solid point. One of the companies go down, any of the three, and thats millions of Americans out of a job. All over the country.

 

[Philly]

So is the sky really falling or is everybody just saying it is?

 

[V1P3R]

Watching news right now... I think we're past funny now. Get ready for the next great depression people.

 

[Tornado]

I have a question: Where the hell did all of this come from? There weren't even rumblings of this back in September. Was this the result of Enron-style shenanigans (we're fine, we're fine, we're fine, we're fine...oh, by the way, we don't have enough money to last out the year) or what?

 

[Philly]

I think it could be a result of a terrible September and October for all automakers and then the general credit crisis that is going on leading to a recession. Maybe they could have made it through the gas crisis, but that stuff could easily be what tipped them over the edge.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I feel bad for GM, they should have continued the EV-1. Oh well, an SUV/Truck-dependant company should learn their lesson altogether.

-> T-shirts anyone?

 

[YSSMAN]

I have a question: Where the hell did all of this come from?

As a GM guy, I have no idea. This wasn't even a blip on my radar. All of the news coming down to us was that everything had been peachy, and that even if sales were slowing down, it wasn't enough to drive them into the ground. Say six months ago, I'd have been more worried about Ford than GM... Thats saying a lot given how things look right now.

I should write my Congressman and find out what hes doing about it...

 

[forza2.0]

And the vultures are in he waiting. SAAB and opel/vauxhall are being watched by bmw, porsche and mb.

 

[Greycap]

Have you seen the volvo sales list?

If you mean the American sales list that can be found by Googling "Volvo sales" then yes. Doesn't change the fact that it's not that way everywhere - in the UK it's the V50 that leads the line-up, in continent Europe it was the V70 the last time I checked and it was in July. The SUV's rule America, the wagons do it in the rest of the world. And the information comes from a Volvo magazine.

About something being bought by BMW, I thought they weren't after Saab but the other Swede. Would do a lot of good if it happened as BMW knows how to make RWD cars. Slicks is right about the future of Saab, the company can do it but not under another company, at least as huge as GM.

 

[slowman]

I still say let them fail.

If they did know about their money problems, they should've been dealing with it months and months ago. Not my fault, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

If they didn't know about their money problems, then they screwed themselves because of fiscal mismanagement. Not my fault, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that they shouldn't pay for something that wasn't their fault? I really don't understand why this is even a question. This will NOT, I repeat NOT, result in the economy crashing. Its absolutely ridiculous to think that it will. Businesses large and small need to understand that they can't put on their pouty face and go to the government with their hand out every time they have money problems.

I will concede that it is government regulation that got them into quite a bit of this mess in the first place. Automakers are in one of the most tightly regulated industries in this country. The problem here is the government, and anyone that doesn't see that is blind. Plain and simple.

 

[V1P3R]

Umm... isn't the fact that a lot of people won't have jobs, won't be able to buy anything, so then more businesses will start to fold, more people won't have jobs, more people won't be able to buy things, and so on the reason?

 

[Philly]

I still say let them fail.

If they did know about their money problems, they should've been dealing with it months and months ago. Not my fault, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

If they didn't know about their money problems, then they screwed themselves because of fiscal mismanagement. Not my fault, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

I will concede that it is government regulation that got them into quite a bit of this mess in the first place. Automakers are in one of the most tightly regulated industries in this country. The problem here is the government, and anyone that doesn't see that is blind. Plain and simple.

Don't these statements contradict themselves? On the one hand, you're saying that the government shouldn't help out the industry, yet you come around and say that the government had a part in putting them where they are. And perhaps if they are a part of the problem, the least they could do is turn around and be a part of the solution for them?

 

[Keef]

Maybe they should fire all their incompetent executives and hire Carlos Ghosn instead.

 

[YSSMAN]

Maybe they should fire all their incompetent executives and hire Carlos Ghosn instead.

I'm up for it. I hated Wagoner for a long time, but more recently, he has been otherwise pleasant. With this, I hope, he has the guts to step down. I don't know why the reigns haven't been given fully to Bob Lutz (it always seems like they've been in his possession), we need someone with a real passion for automobiles to be at the head of the company.

RE: Slowman

You've got a point, and depending on your outlook for things, you are completely right. But here is the problem: Letting just one of the companies fall puts nearly 3 Million people out of work, many of which are going to be here in my home state of Michigan (the local plant employing 1500 people is due to close next year), in Ohio, Indiana, Kansas, California, etc. As the industrial backbone to the economy, the loss of GM would be staggering, especially with its effect on parts suppliers. Its a domino effect that, in theory, could have absolutely terrible consequences with an already floundering economy.

The simple question is, are you willing to risk it? I'd prefer to have GM bought-out by a "respectable" company, or to be able to file for Chapter 11 and sort itself out, but when its looking like it will be down to either Chapter 7 (complete liquidation) or Government Aid... I'd rather see the company stick around.

 

[Omnis]

Don't these statements contradict themselves? On the one hand, you're saying that the government shouldn't help out the industry, yet you come around and say that the government had a part in putting them where they are. And perhaps if they are a part of the problem, the least they could do is turn around and be a part of the solution for them?

They don't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Government can't help by stealing from another party. They can help by repealing crap, or GM can just go bankrupt because they can't keep up.

 

[slowman]

Then these 3 million people had better start beating down GM's door. GM has enough value right now to give a 6 month final severance pay to their employees.

GM is NOT the industrial backbone to the US economy. They are the industrial backbone to Michigan's economy. I really do understand that the end result of GM failing would be extremely detrimental to MICHIGAN. But when it really comes down to it, that isn't my fault, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

The solution here is not for the government to cover their asses. The best solution is for the government to cease to exist, at least in the realm of literally regulating these companies to death.

My anger here is not directed at GM or it's employees. It is directed at the government.

The highest grossing casino in the US makes more money than GM does. If they start to fail, should we bail them out too?

 

[Keef]

I'm up for it.

...we need someone with a real passion for automobiles to be at the head of the company.

But Ghosn has no passion. He's a very good business man. He knows how to make money, and I think that's what GM needs. Obviously in this market you need good cars to make money, but they'll only make money if they fit a good business model. Nissan has been doing so well that they're infringing on Inifiti's territory! The cars are very good, and expensive to make, but they cash in.

And yes, I think there's no reason to theorize about the devastation GM's bankruptcy would cause. Job loss would be in the multi-millions. And I have no idea what would come of outstanding contracts with suppliers, such as the machine we're building right now. Tons of lost money from wasted labor and material. My shop does work for GM and DMAX and other places related to GM. That would cut nearly half of our usual work. But, thankfully we have a diverse group of clients and services, so I think they'd be able to deal with. Probably without my employment, though, along with a few others.