The Displacement Wars

[Joey D]

If someone disrespects you if you're driving a Supra instead of a Corvette (or anything else with a large engine) then they're the kind of jerk that's ruining car culture. As long as you keep your Supra looking nice, keep it maintained, and don't try to pass it off for something it isn't, a true car person will respect it.

 

[Cano]

massive Corvette 6.0L V8.

massive, 6 liters? Oh, kid.

If someone disrespects you if you're driving a Supra instead of a Corvette (or anything else with a large engine) then they're the kind of jerk that's ruining car culture. As long as you keep your Supra looking nice, keep it maintained, and don't try to pass it off for something it isn't, a true car person will respect it.

Yet again, this.

 

[RDF97]

But is displacement everything?

Say you have two friends.
The first has a V8 Commodore. He's a keen driver, but he uses it every day so it's basically stock.
The second has a supercharged V6. It's his weekend car, so he's worked the suspension, taken a lot of the sound deadening out, put an aftermarket exhaust on, worked the engine all the way through and had it tuned, and various other things. It's streetable, but it's not that pleasant on a long trip.

Is one really more impressive than the other?

The V8 is cool, and it's fine that the guy keeps it stock because that's the way he needs to use it. It's a nice car, and one that most people would be happy to own.

The supercharged V6 is going to be faster both in a straight line and through the corners through all the work that's been done to it, and a better drivers car in almost every way except user friendliness. Displacement aside, it's a better car, and anyone who has even the first idea about cars will know that.

And regarding the sound thing, I had the pleasure of hearing a supercharged SV6 at a track day I went to at Sandown. One of the most amazing sounds I've ever heard.

If you want your car to generate respect, you just need a good car. I think the assumption is that a car with a bigger engine is always better, and that's just not true at all. A guy I used to work with had an absolutely mint R34 Skyline GTR V-Spec II Nur. That's not the biggest engine in the world, but a hugely impressive car to any car nerds due to the care he took with every upgrade he did to it and the sheer rarity of the thing.

Don't get me wrong, a V8 Commodore or Falcon is a lovely car and I'd love to have one (in manual please). But you pay a price for that huge lump up the front, and serious drivers are aware of that. An SS Commodore just isn't that impressive against any real sports car, big engine or not.

It's the Australian muscle car thing. Anyone who grew up in 70's Australia were surronded by big cars fitted with big engines. I like the whole appeal of the muscle car. You can get a smaller V8 car like an M3, Audi S/RS with more power and put that power to better use. But they have appeal.

I understand the appeal of muscle cars, they are for people who pose. They show off, they are driven by people who pass by pushing the pedal on the right all the way down. They want to demonstrate their presence by flooring that sucker and half deafining you with the sound of a V8. They may not be the best cars and as you say. An SV6 or even an XR6 Turbo would technically be better but having the Australian muscle car live on is undeniabley cool.

 

[Cano]

It's the Australian muscle car thing. Anyone who grew up in 70's Australia were surronded by big cars fitted with big engines.

Sorry bud, but like over here in Mexico, Australia never got big engines. Hell, I don't even think Mopar offered a V8 in there.

 

[Imari]

...but having the Australian muscle car live on is undeniabley cool.

Oh, I don't disagree. It would be a great loss for those kinds of cars to die out. They have a charm of their own.

But what I don't agree with is the principal argument for the last few pages of this thread that bigger engine = better. At best it's a personal thing.

Muscle cars do what they're designed to do very well, go like stink in a straight line. People respect them for that. I don't quite get why a car that is designed to go around corners very quickly doesn't get the same respect.

Possibly it has a lot to do with the type of driving people tend to do, both the US and Australia have a lot of very long, relatively straight roads. Maybe people that grow up driving like that just can't see the value in being able to corner well, because they can't imagine themselves using it.

A well cared for classic or sports car is a beautiful thing, regardless of what it has under the bonnet. It'd be nice if people could recognise that regardless of their own personal preferences for engine size, but on that day we'll probably have world peace too.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Hell, I don't even think Mopar offered a V8 in there.

Chrysler Valiant Charger 770. 318ci or 340ci for the SE. Though the Hemi-6 Charger R/T is more renowned here (and a lot more rarefied).

~350ci seemed to be the magical number for top-shelf Australian muscle cars. The Monaro GTS' had a 350, the Valiant Charger a 340 and the Falcon GT of course getting the Cleveland 351.

 

[Cano]

Chrysler Valiant Charger 770. 318ci or 340ci for the SE. Though the Hemi-6 Charger R/T is more renowned here (and a lot more rarefied).

Ah, so you did get a small block. Well, at least.

Pretty similar to what we got over here in Mexico, actually. But we didn't get the 340 block, we only got a hi-po version of the 318 with everything from the 340 that could be put into it.

~350ci seemed to be the magical number for top-shelf Australian muscle cars. The Monaro GTS' had a 350, the Valiant Charger a 340 and the Falcon GT of course getting the Cleveland 351.

As I said, no big engines.

 

[Zenith]

I understand the appeal of muscle cars, they are for people who pose. They show off, they are driven by people who pass by pushing the pedal on the right all the way down. They want to demonstrate their presence by flooring that sucker and half deafining you with the sound of a V8.

I know several muscle car owners. None of us pose.

Automotive stereotypes about drivers are just as uncool as automotive stereotypes about cars.

I find it odd that the same people complaining that nimble cars with small engines are under appreciated as wimpy or nerdy are the same ones going around saying that anyone who drives a muscle car must be Captain 'Roid Rage. It might also explain why some people aren't being treated nicely at car shows.

 

[Harry6784]

Oh, I don't disagree. It would be a great loss for those kinds of cars to die out. They have a charm of their own.

But what I don't agree with is the principal argument for the last few pages of this thread that bigger engine = better. At best it's a personal thing.

Muscle cars do what they're designed to do very well, go like stink in a straight line. People respect them for that. I don't quite get why a car that is designed to go around corners very quickly doesn't get the same respect.

Possibly it has a lot to do with the type of driving people tend to do, both the US and Australia have a lot of very long, relatively straight roads. Maybe people that grow up driving like that just can't see the value in being able to corner well, because they can't imagine themselves using it.

A well cared for classic or sports car is a beautiful thing, regardless of what it has under the bonnet. It'd be nice if people could recognise that regardless of their own personal preferences for engine size, but on that day we'll probably have world peace too.

I recently had to make a decision between a stereotypical "muscle car" and a renown sports car. Having saved up enough money to get a nice car, I was originally looking at a BMW E46 M3. Loved its looks and of course its famed "M3" handling. But as I did more research and a couple of test drives, it's magic wore off on me. I eventually got a very American, very "stereotypical" Trans Am WS6 and have never looked back. Maybe in Europe it's different, but here in the US, the Trans Am is just more fun to drive on a day to day basis. The M3 has great handling but as a daily driver there aren't enough mountain roads that I can blast through to make it enjoyable. On a track, I would love to have both, but on the road there's no question on my mind. And who doesn't love the throaty V8 exhaust

As far as Muscle cars "not being able to corner" they need to do some more research. My buddy on ls1tech took his mildly modified 2000 Z28 over to Europe and the Nurburgring. On street tires he was keeping up with M5's, 911's and even a couple of older Ferraris. He was pulling low 8 min laps never having been on that track before. Not bad for something with a "primitive" solid rear axle.

 

[Badasp5.0]

As far as Muscle cars "not being able to corner" they need to do some more research. My buddy on ls1tech took his mildly modified 2000 Z28 over to Europe and the Nurburgring. On street tires he was keeping up with M5's, 911's and even a couple of older Ferraris. He was pulling low 8 min laps never having been on that track before. Not bad for something with a "primitive" solid rear axle.

Yep some car people are under the impression that a IRS is a REQUIREMENT for a good handling car.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Displacement wars, you say?

I win.

You're actually looking at a 133 litre () diesel I-6 used in trains, making 1,160 bhp at 750 rpm. It's about 2 metres high. Pretty cool. Now, if only we could put it in a car...

 

[ildd]

Displacement wars, you say?

I win.

You're actually looking at a 133 litre () diesel I-6 used in trains, making 1,160 bhp at 750 rpm. Pretty cool. Now, if only we could put it in a car...

How big is that compared to a regular sedan?

 

[Wolfe]

Maybe in Europe it's different, but here in the US, the Trans Am is just more fun to drive on a day to day basis...

It's still subjective and depends on your situation, naturally. I'm sure there are flat areas in Europe with more straight roads than you can find in the hills around my house; even before I lived in this corner of the state, I enjoyed my lightweight 4-cylinder BMW every day I drove it. My wagon is still lighter than a Corvette and is a pleasure on the Pirelli all-seasons it wears. It's about as big as I'm willing to go for a daily driver, if I can help it.

Big displacement isn't for everyone. Neither is high revs. Nor straight lines, or twisted backroads. Variety is one of the things that makes the car community so widely appealing, and that's a good thing.

Yep some car people are under the impression that a IRS is a REQUIREMENT for a good handling car.

I agree, the type of suspension is not as important as how it's utilized. Few people realize that the AE86 Corolla rode on a live rear axle, and IIRC the Porsche Boxster/Cayman runs "lowly" MacPherson struts front and rear. The latest Mustangs prove how capable a LRA can be.

 

[Crash]

Displacement wars, you say?

I win.

You're actually looking at a 133 litre () diesel I-6 used in trains, making 1,160 bhp at 750 rpm. It's about 2 metres high. Pretty cool. Now, if only we could put it in a car...

That's it? Lolol, you noob.

The Wärtsilä-Sulzer RTA96-C is the largest diesel engine in the world, making 109,000 horsepower. The engine has 14 cylinders and displaces 25480 liters, and is used to power some of the world's largest container ships.

Obviously, if you don't have a 25480 liter engine in your car, then you're not a real man, or something like that.

 

[ildd]

That's it? Lolol, you noob.

The Wärtsilä-Sulzer RTA96-C is the largest diesel engine in the world, making 109,000 horsepower. .

I got that in my x2011

 

[Third Reign]

That's it? Lolol, you noob.

The Wärtsilä-Sulzer RTA96-C is the largest diesel engine in the world, making 109,000 horsepower. The engine has 14 cylinders and displaces 25480 liters, and is used to power some of the world's largest container ships.


Obviously, if you don't have a 25480 liter engine in your car, then you're not a real man, or something like that.

Holy crap...is that thing running on Uranium? The ignition power of that thing must be incredible to get all parts in that motor block moving...

As far as Muscle cars "not being able to corner" they need to do some more research. My buddy on ls1tech took his mildly modified 2000 Z28 over to Europe and the Nurburgring. On street tires he was keeping up with M5's, 911's and even a couple of older Ferraris. He was pulling low 8 min laps never having been on that track before. Not bad for something with a "primitive" solid rear axle.

Even if it is a BTG time...I hate it when people pull these times out of their ass. Anyone that has never driven the track real life is far off from anything close to 8 minutes. Keep up with the listed cars, sure, there are tons of casual drivers on the Ring, in for the experience. Just to give you an idea...VLN race spec M3 on slicks does 7:35 BTG, driven by regulars.

 

[TheBook]

In fairness, 8.59.999 is still an 8-minute lap. I can imagine something like that doing a lap in the high 8 minute range.

OT: I love giant V8 engines with massive cams that shake the ground at idle and you can hear from three miles away when they take off from a stoplight. But I also love revs; small 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder engineers that just spin to eternity. Rotaries, too, for this reason.

 

[Liquid]

As far as Muscle cars "not being able to corner" they need to do some more research. My buddy on ls1tech took his mildly modified 2000 Z28 over to Europe and the Nurburgring. On street tires he was keeping up with M5's, 911's and even a couple of older Ferraris. He was pulling low 8 min laps never having been on that track before. Not bad for something with a "primitive" solid rear axle.

While it is easy to ridicule American cars, correctly or incorrectly, and less than 8 minutes around the Ring is impressive if true, I wouldn't class the 4th gen Camaro as a muscle car.

But of course, 'muscle' car has such a broad definition that even old Mustangs are frequently lumbered into the category.

 

[Badasp5.0]

While it is easy to ridicule American cars, correctly or incorrectly, and less than 8 minutes around the Ring is impressive if true, I wouldn't class the 4th gen Camaro as a muscle car.

But of course, 'muscle' car has such a broad definition that even old Mustangs are frequently lumbered into the category.

How is it not? Its officially a "pony car" which has always been a smaller subset of muscle cars.

 

[playnthru]

How is it not? Its officially a "pony car" which has always been a smaller subset of muscle cars.

Are you gonna claim a 6cylinder Mustang a Muscle car?

Big block= Muscle car generally

Small block= Pony car.

👍

 

[Badasp5.0]

Are you gonna claim a 6cylinder Mustang a Muscle car?

Big block= Muscle car generally

Small block= Pony car.

👍

Not if were talking V6s LOL

 

[MrWednesday]

I race a turbo-four, and I'm happy with how it sounds and drives, but I still have a soft spot for the sound of a 302 V8 at full song on a straight.

... so I brought up the point that in a can of beer there's no real difference in alcohol content

Maybe they just sell the macrobrews where you live, but I can buy ~9% ABV microbrew cans where I live... so yes, there is a real difference in alcohol content in a can of beer.

But that's not all there is. Some of it has to do with sound. Four-cylinder engines can produce a variety of unappealing noises, from "overtaxed blender" on the low end to "wind-up toy" on the high end. There might be a sweet spot somewhere in there, but the sheer number of engines that don't hit it is amazing.

Near as I can tell, the biggest effect on the sound an engine makes is the displacement per cylinder, rather than the overall displacement. A 1.6L I4 sounds different from a 2.3L I4. A 3.0L V6 sounds different from a 3.8L V6. (In each case, the former is more on the wind-up toy end, the latter is lower-pitched.)

Can you? Not once have you ever explained on how 4 cylinders sound "terrible" beyond, "OMG, they sound like blenders".

This is obviously purely subjective. Some low-displacement engines sound pretty good, especially when they rev higher. But some have a sort of a hollow, tin-can kind of sound that I really don't care for. I've never heard a bad-sounding V8, but some have more meat to their exhaust note than others.


For what it's worth, my sound critiques are entirely based on track driving with modified exhaust systems. For street driving, I don't generally expect to hear anything "interesting" aside from really obnoxious coffee-can exhausts. Unmodified, mufflers eat it all anyway, and day-to-day, that's just fine with me.

 

[McLaren]

This is obviously purely subjective. Some low-displacement engines sound pretty good, especially when they rev higher. But some have a sort of a hollow, tin-can kind of sound that I really don't care for. I've never heard a bad-sounding V8, but some have more meat to their exhaust note than others.

Bingo, my friend. It's all subjective, yet W&N in the past as constantly touted it as if it were a fact.

As far as Muscle cars "not being able to corner" they need to do some more research. My buddy on ls1tech took his mildly modified 2000 Z28 over to Europe and the Nurburgring. On street tires he was keeping up with M5's, 911's and even a couple of older Ferraris. He was pulling low 8 min laps never having been on that track before. Not bad for something with a "primitive" solid rear axle.

I doubt he even broke the 9 minute barrier for starters.

Even when you ignore the specific vehicles that have set such times in the low 8 minute bracket or that they were professionally driven, for a 2000 Camaro Z/28 to come anywhere close, it would have to

A) Break the laws of physics & just literally fly around the track.
B) Have the world's most insane driver.
C) Be an actual race car & not "mildly modified".
D) Make up a story claiming so.

Just to be clear, there's no doubt what he may or may not have been beating, it's the time you claim a 2000 Z/28 managed to accomplish on street tires & probably sporting an exhaust, intake, & tune with an amateur driver.

 

[Zenith]

Are you gonna claim a 6cylinder Mustang a Muscle car?

Big block= Muscle car generally

Small block= Pony car.

👍

Nope.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

Also consider that almost every modern V8 is considered a small block, or not considered either because small-block/big block isn't dependent on cylinder count or displacement.

 

[Slash]

Are you gonna claim a 6cylinder Mustang a Muscle car?

Big block= Muscle car generally

Small block= Pony car.

👍

What about the pony cars that had big blocks then? Ex. 1969 Mustang 428/429 etc.

Or the supposed economy car the Dodge dart that had the 426 Hemi and 440s? In fact I saw and got a picture of one last night with a 440 based 572 that was blown and quoted from the owner "has between 1200-1400 horsepower with less that 20 minutes running".

 

[Harry6784]

Even when you ignore the specific vehicles that have set such times in the low 8 minute bracket or that they were professionally driven, for a 2000 Camaro Z/28 to come anywhere close, it would have to

A) Break the laws of physics & just literally fly around the track.
B) Have the world's most insane driver.
C) Be an actual race car & not "mildly modified".
D) Make up a story claiming so.

Just to be clear, there's no doubt what he may or may not have been beating, it's the time you claim a 2000 Z/28 managed to accomplish on street tires & probably sporting an exhaust, intake, & tune with an amateur driver.

I'd love to know where you got that information

I think you need to check your times, a fully stock 2010 Camaro SS does a time of 8:20, and frankly a 5th gen isn't all that much faster than a 4th gen. Granted that time was in the hands of a professional driver, but here are the exact modifications of his Z28:

Engine/Drivetrain Modifications: FRA mod- MTI clear lid- Ported/Polished stock TB- LS6 intake- 28.8lb inj- SLP 160 stat- SW stainless steel longtube headers- Bassani stainless steel Tru duals- HPTuners- AFX NTK
EPS cam:222/226 LSA 113 | GM casting 243 heads
LS7 clutch- drill mod- stock T56 | Hurst billet shifter- Lou's short stick- 3.42

Suspension Modifications: BMR STB | UMI susp: Adj panhard bar- Adj LCAs- relo brackets | Strano bars: 35/21 mm | Konis- single adj | DMS lowering springs | SS brake lines | ATE brake fluid | DBA/brembo blanks| Hawk pads | C6 BBK

Wheels/Tires Modifications: Powdercoated C5 Z06 replicas, General UHPs

Quite a sophisticated "exhaust, intake and tune" setup

Here's a pic:

 

[Slash]

Not even close to stock.....

 

[ImaRobot]

Thats the most modified mildly-modified car I've ever seen.

 

[Cano]

Thats the most modified mildly-modified car I've ever seen.

Frankly, given the aftermarket there is for these cars, the thing is quite mild. It could be a loooot more radical than that. There isn't even anything fabricated in that list.

Looks badass on the Caroussel too.

 

[ImaRobot]

Frankly, given the aftermarket there is for these cars, the thing is quite mild. It could be a loooot more radical than that. There isn't even anything fabricated in that list.

Looks badass on the Caroussel too.

That amount of aftermarket support for a certain vehicles doesnt change anything. That car is not mild. Like Mclaren mentioned, Street tires, intake, and exhaust, would be something mild.