The Displacement Wars

[Cano]

The car is mild! The suspension is the most radical part of the car and it's all aftermarket bolt-on stuff. In fact, the car read awfully similar to a friend of mine's in that aspect, and the suspension is very very capable, but not as radical as it could be. The engine has some bolt ons, and that's it.

Frankly, again, intake and exhaust and tires on these cars are like the beginning, not "mild". In fact these mods are so common you'll be hard-pressed to find one that hasn't had them done. They're not "mild", they're almost standard these days.

 

[MrWednesday]

That amount of aftermarket support for a certain vehicles doesnt change anything. That car is not mild. Like Mclaren mentioned, Street tires, intake, and exhaust, would be something mild.

I take "General UHPs" to mean street tires. Not typical daily-driver street tires, but I'd expect them to be DOT-legal and suitable for both rain and dry driving.

 

[McLaren]

I'd love to know where you got that information

From you. A mildly modified car typically consists of I/E/T.

I think you need to check your times, a fully stock 2010 Camaro SS does a time of 8:20, and frankly a 5th gen isn't all that much faster than a 4th gen. Granted that time was in the hands of a professional driver, but here are the exact modifications of his Z28:

Exactly. A professional. And you claim some guy had never been on the Ring before somehow managed to beat it & several other sports car times set by professionals.

Engine/Drivetrain Modifications: FRA mod- MTI clear lid- Ported/Polished stock TB- LS6 intake- 28.8lb inj- SLP 160 stat- SW stainless steel longtube headers- Bassani stainless steel Tru duals- HPTuners- AFX NTK
EPS cam:222/226 LSA 113 | GM casting 243 heads
LS7 clutch- drill mod- stock T56 | Hurst billet shifter- Lou's short stick- 3.42

Suspension Modifications: BMR STB | UMI susp: Adj panhard bar- Adj LCAs- relo brackets | Strano bars: 35/21 mm | Konis- single adj | DMS lowering springs | SS brake lines | ATE brake fluid | DBA/brembo blanks| Hawk pads | C6 BBK


Wheels/Tires Modifications: Powdercoated C5 Z06 replicas, General UHPs

Quite a sophisticated "exhaust, intake and tune" setup

Here's a pic:

None of what you listed would still lead me to believe your friend piloted a 2000 Camaro to a low 8 minute lap time. Even with changed suspension & brake setup, that doesn't make up for driver skill and there's no way some guy brought such a car & set such a lap time on the world's most challenging race circuit with no previous experience.

If he did, your friend needs to be contacting every race team imaginable because he obviously has more talent than some of the men who set the times he beat in a car nowhere near engineered as the ones they drove.

And that's not even getting into the timing inconsistencies when people try to record their own lap times.

 

[Liquid]

And it's not even a muscle car. Sports-Pony.

 

[Harry6784]

From you. A mildly modified car typically consists of I/E/T.

And where's that golden rule? This is all perspective. But still, if that is your idea of a "mildly" modified car I'd love to see what you consider to be a "lightly" modified car... installing a performance oil filter?

Exactly. A professional. And you claim some guy had never been on the Ring before somehow managed to beat it & several other sports car times set by professionals.

None of what you listed would still lead me to believe your friend piloted a 2000 Camaro to a low 8 minute lap time. Even with changed suspension & brake setup, that doesn't make up for driver skill and there's no way some guy brought such a car & set such a lap time on the world's most challenging race circuit with no previous experience.

If he did, your friend needs to be contacting every race team imaginable because he obviously has more talent than some of the men who set the times he beat in a car nowhere near engineered as the ones they drove.

And that's not even getting into the timing inconsistencies when people try to record their own lap times.

Again, you assume too much. I never said he was a poor driver, simply that he had not yet raced around the ring before. He has done many many autocross events and track days here in the US so he knows the limits of his car quite well.

Frankly I don't care what time you think his car "should" have run, the people racing with him were just as surprised as you were, only they respected him and his car for accomplishing such a feat.

Frankly, given the aftermarket there is for these cars, the thing is quite mild. It could be a loooot more radical than that. There isn't even anything fabricated in that list.

Looks badass on the Caroussel too.

Yep. With enough money, the F-Body platform can be stupid quick around a track or at a drag strip, the market is huge. But since when is an intake, exhaust and tune considered a "mildly modified car", my daily driver has more mods than that

 

[Wolfe]

Who cares what is generally accepted as "mildly modified." You gave a misleading description, don't blame anyone else for not being more clear.

 

[Cano]

But since when is an intake, exhaust and tune considered a "mildly modified car", my daily driver has more mods than that

Yeah that's kinda my point here, those are kinda the beggining of the spiral in this case. Yet, of course, they'll yield 400 horses easily.

 

[Slash]

That amount of aftermarket support for a certain vehicles doesnt change anything. That car is not mild. Like Mclaren mentioned, Street tires, intake, and exhaust, would be something mild.

Like Cano said, that car is mild by what most people consider mild. I consider mild to be headers, exhaust, mild cam, possibly cheap heads, intake etc. that's mild to me. When you start getting into the bottom end that changes.

 

[Harry6784]

Like Cano said, that car is mild by what most people consider mild. I consider mild to be headers, exhaust, mild cam, possibly cheap heads, intake etc. that's mild to me. When you start getting into the bottom end that changes.

Exactly, everyone has their idea of what mild means, my bad then, maybe I should have been more specific

 

[Slash]

When I said the one you posted was mild, I meant very very very very mild. All good though.

 

[Liquid]

Whatever we say about it, what we can say is that this particular Camaro is a bad example of a 'stock' 'muscle' car that can 'go around corners', which was the original claim.

 

[McLaren]

Again, you assume too much. I never said he was a poor driver, simply that he had not yet raced around the ring before. He has done many many autocross events and track days here in the US so he knows the limits of his car quite well.

I never did, either. I said I don't believe he beat several professionals on a race track he has never been on in a car that had a severe disadvantage to what the other professionals were driving.

Knowing the limits of your car doesn't mean anything on the Nurburgring if you've never driven it before. You're in no way going to know how fast to take each corner & there's no way you're going to become so adapt to remembering it the next time around when there's 153 other turns of varying difficulty to through. I'm speaking from my own experience & I'm sure many here can too, that it is an extremely overwhelming track if you attempt to start going towards your car's limits because there's so many turns you have never taken & it takes a ridiculous amount of laps to finally get a general idea of how fast you could start taking certain corners whilst knowing what comes next. It's an incredibly, highly improbable chance someone with no hands-on experience could set a time to rival men who likely have 100-200 laps of the track under their belt with a car that is at a disadvantage to those same men.

Frankly I don't care what time you think his car "should" have run, the people racing with him were just as surprised as you were, only they respected him and his car for accomplishing such a feat.

Who's assuming what again?

I'm not disrespecting him for taking a Camaro to the 'Ring & staying with some sports cars. They take everything under the sun on the 'Ring now-a-days.

What I'm doing is calling your claim a made up time based on the car & driver experience for the track in question & that the feat never happened.

 

[Harry6784]

I never did, either. I said I don't believe he beat several professionals on a race track he has never been on in a car that had a severe disadvantage to what the other professionals were driving.

Who said the other drivers were professionals? You know as well as I that anyone from Michael Schumacher in the latest Ferrari to my grandma in her '99 Sentra could show up at a track day. Just because someone is driving a 911 does not mean they have the skills to push it to it's mechanical limits. It seems that we could go back and forth but short of putting you in the passenger seat you will not believe his car ran an 8 min lap. Regardless, you're missing the whole point I'm trying to make; that you can take a stereotypical, loud, American "muscle car" and with basic modifications & upgrades it can keep up with the established, "proper" European sports cars that are 10 times it's price.

 

[oopssorryy]

Who said the other drivers were professionals?

I think he ment the lap records that are set by pros, not the other drivers out that day.

 

[Harry6784]

I think he ment the lap records that are set by pros, not the other drivers out that day.

Looked like he was referring to them in context:

I never did, either. I said I don't believe he beat several professionals on a race track he has never been on in a car that had a severe disadvantage to what the other professionals were driving.

How is his car at a "severe disadvantage" anyway?

----edit----

Since this is GTplanet, I decided to do some testing on GT5. I took a new '10 Camaro SS fresh from the dealer and took it straight to the nurb. With no aids (ABS at 1) on Comfort Mediums I managed to get a best lap of 8:28, 8 seconds within the 8:20 in real life. I then got a 0/0/0 '00 Camaro SS, same tires, same conditions, I got a best of 8:46. So according to GT5 at least, there are very little between these two cars. Now calculate in all the mods he has done to his car and I'd say it is very possible for this car to be in the 8 min range.

---- more edit ----
Decided to share someone else's F-Body (T/A Formula) experience:

Here is the not so short story of my nurburgring experience.

First time out about 1.5 years ago. The car had strano springs/ sway bars / koni adjustable shocks, michelin pilot sport a/s 245 series tires on 16in rims.
Hawk pads, and curved vane rotors from strano.

My goal was to do 10:00 Bridge to gantry......(top gear challenge)

My first timed lap was around 12:30. Car was extremely loose, but a lot of fun to drive. Shocks were set to full soft front and back. Basically I would drift the first couple of corners, the tires would get greasy, and the rest of the lap I was just trying to stay out of the barriers.

I wasn't learning the track, so I rented a 195hp Renault Clio, with slick tires, big brakes, and within 6 laps, I ran a 10:00.56. close enough for me.

Jumped back into the formula, and even with my new knowledge of the track my best was a 10:03.xx. The car was too lose, I was overheating the engine, and the brake pedal was going to the floor by the end of the lap(dot 3 brake fluid).

As I'm getting ready to leave a very tall German gentleman stops me, and asks if I would like to do a formation lap with another f-body. I tell him my car has been cooking its brakes, and tires, and that I need it to get me home still. So he offers me a ride in his mint 2001 SS camaro(German spec). Its stock down to the paper air filter engine wise. Has the same suspension set up as my car, but with cooled 13in brakes, and 275 slick tires on zr1 rims. He takes me for a ride in the low 9s, said his best was in the 8:40 range.

I believe there's your answer. A mostly stock F-Body, in the hands of a "professional" pulling a time of 8:40.

 

[McLaren]

Who said the other drivers were professionals? You know as well as I that anyone from Michael Schumacher in the latest Ferrari to my grandma in her '99 Sentra could show up at a track day. Just because someone is driving a 911 does not mean they have the skills to push it to it's mechanical limits. It seems that we could go back and forth but short of putting you in the passenger seat you will not believe his car ran an 8 min lap.

You're attempting to divert the argument now by bringing in nothing of any relevance.

Even if we take the new SS' time of 8:20 set by a professional, you claim a Nurburgring novice was able to match it in a car that should (not is, should) be "equal" to it. At this point again, the car doesn't even matter; this is some guy with 0 laps being able to match a professional who has a lot more.

Regardless, you're missing the whole point I'm trying to make; that you can take a stereotypical, loud, American "muscle car" and with basic modifications & upgrades it can keep up with the established, "proper" European sports cars that are 10 times it's price.

We all know that here.

The example you chose to provide though doesn't prove your point because it didn't happen.

How is his car at a "severe disadvantage" anyway?

Try looking at the fastest cars in the low 8 minute range:
M3, Cayman S, 911 GT3, NSX-R, RS4, 996 GT2, Boxster S, ISF. All cars engineered way beyond the Camaro you listed.

----edit----

Since this is GTplanet, I decided to do some testing on GT5. I took a new '10 Camaro SS fresh from the dealer and took it straight to the nurb. With no aids (ABS at 1) on Comfort Mediums I managed to get a best lap of 8:28, 8 seconds within the 8:20 in real life. I then got a 0/0/0 '00 Camaro SS, same tires, same conditions, I got a best of 8:46. So according to GT5 at least, there are very little between these two cars. Now calculate in all the mods he has done to his car and I'd say it is very possible for this car to be in the 8 min range.

Using GT to prove real world times is absolutely meaningless. The fastest people on this forum could more than likely drive the same car to near 8 minute dead lap time.

We've had a huge discussion about the poorly modeled tire physics in GT in the GT5 section as well.

---- more edit ----
Decided to share someone else's F-Body (T/A Formula) experience:

I believe there's your answer. A mostly stock F-Body, in the hands of a "professional" pulling a time of 8:40.

And that relates to anything regarding your claim? Mostly stock, yet running full slicks, aftermarket suspension, & bigger brakes. Oh yes, that is indeed, "mostly" stock to what came off the factory showroom.

Here's one more problem with your last quote. Bridge to Gantry isn't a complete lap. It misses out on an entire mile long section of upward hill straight that can drastically increase the times meaning that "mostly stock in the hands of a professional" 2001 SS is in reality barely breaking the 9 minute barrier. And yet you think those mods listed in the 2000 example w/ a complete novice bested it by an entire 30+ seconds.

 

[Third Reign]

I then got a 0/0/0 '00 Camaro SS, same tires, same conditions, I got a best of 8:46. So according to GT5 at least, there are very little between these two cars. Now calculate in all the mods he has done to his car and I'd say it is very possible for this car to be in the 8 min range.

...

As I'm getting ready to leave a very tall German gentleman stops me, and asks if I would like to do a formation lap with another f-body. I tell him my car has been cooking its brakes, and tires, and that I need it to get me home still. So he offers me a ride in his mint 2001 SS camaro(German spec). Its stock down to the paper air filter engine wise. Has the same suspension set up as my car, but with cooled 13in brakes, and 275 slick tires on zr1 rims. He takes me for a ride in the low 9s, said his best was in the 8:40 range.

I believe there's your answer. A mostly stock F-Body, in the hands of a "professional" pulling a time of 8:40.

After the N24 qualifying this year I decided to also try it with an Audi R8 LMS, detuned to real life specs and sport soft compound. I bested Frank Stippler's by a second. Now there is no way in hell I'm faster than Frank Stippler...GT5 isnt quite comparable to the real track. You have way more sight of corner entry and exit. You lack the fear of not seeing the exit in GT5.

The quoted experience seems more believable for BTG times. As such I highly doubt any newcomer to the track would drive close to 8:40 on their first few go arounds.

 

[oopssorryy]

To get back on topic:

Back in the day (in the US at least) if you wanted a fast car it had to be a V8, mostly due to all the pig iron we used in the frames/blocks. Small displacement motors just werent that well developed, not was any version of FI. Anymore however the choice of engine mostly comes down to budget and preferance of power delivery. A LS1 can spit out 400 easily, but a 4AG will most likely be turbo'ed and have a bit of lag. But the 4A will rev forever where the LS wont. There still is no replacememt for displacement, but with todays tech you can get just about any engine to pump out more power than you can really use on the street. I prefer 3-4 liter V6s only because they on on the fence between the high revving micro motored 4 bangers and the big block v a millions engines.

 

[Harry6784]

Try looking at the fastest cars in the low 8 minute range:
M3, Cayman S, 911 GT3, NSX-R, RS4, 996 GT2, Boxster S, ISF. All cars engineered way beyond the Camaro you listed.

A 1998 Firebird Formula with stock 106K mile LS1. Intake, exhaust, springs, shocks, swaybars, and brembo front brakes from a CTS-V. Running a high 8 min lap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BlG-40CbX8

Driver of the firebird had some practice around the track in a spec Miata, but nowhere near the "hundreds of laps" you mentioned were required. Now those mods aren't even close the the one I originally described. If this amateur driver can drive that car around the nurb in 8 min, what will another car with more power and a better suspension do? You seem to disregard f-bodies potential as a track day car which simply isn't true.

To get back on topic:

Back in the day (in the US at least) if you wanted a fast car it had to be a V8, mostly due to all the pig iron we used in the frames/blocks. Small displacement motors just werent that well developed, not was any version of FI. Anymore however the choice of engine mostly comes down to budget and preferance of power delivery. A LS1 can spit out 400 easily, but a 4AG will most likely be turbo'ed and have a bit of lag. But the 4A will rev forever where the LS wont. There still is no replacememt for displacement, but with todays tech you can get just about any engine to pump out more power than you can really use on the street. I prefer 3-4 liter V6s only because they on on the fence between the high revving micro motored 4 bangers and the big block v a millions engines.

Yes I agree that now motors with turbos are getting more clever. The whole idea is to get as much power with as little weight as possible. Turbos do that well but since they tend to produce most of their power at high rev rages, they are great for the track, but on the street they are still sluggish. Granted there are some turboed engined out there with basically no lag, so I do agree that the need for a V8 is becoming obsolete, guess I'm just old school

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

There's a solution to that. Twincharging.

 

[Luminis]

Lincoln Continental by GTRdaan, on Flickr

It's parked and it's still taking up half the road.

Sorry for quoting the image, but dang, that plate is from the town I was born and raised in

Anyways, personally, I don't get the constant bickering about engine sizes. Me, I like an engine because it's nice and dislike it because it isn't. Whether that's something small like the 4A-GE or something big and meaty like the LS7, don't care. They just have to sound nice and do their job well. And depending on what that job is, I'd rather have something light and small or something big and heavy. Thinking of a Lotus Exige, for example, I'd say that a small, light, high-revving I4 would be better suited than a big V8. A loud, growling V8 rumble wouldn't sound right coming from such a car, either. On the other hand, I couldn't picture a car like a classic Mustang screaming at the top of its 2 litre I4 lungs while going down the highway at 55 miles per hour in an attempt to overtake another car. A low rumble that oozes with grunt fits such a car way better.

Now, a big, heavy cruiser is suited to long, wide roads. A small, lightweight car is suited for tight, winding raods. As such, a big V8 is suited for the first (especially when insurance, taxes and fuel consumption weren't an issue), a revvy I4 (or something similar) for the latter. You wouldn't try to eat soup with a fork and you wouldn't try to cut a steak with a spoon. Same with cars. I just don't get why people judge a car based on its origin or its engine configuration instead of how well it does it's job. You know what I'd do when someone tells me the E30 was garbage because it doesn't run splendid quarter mile times? I'd ask them whether they try to hammer a nail into the wall using a screw driver, that's what I'd do.

I'll admit that I'm quick to dismiss a car if I think it's boring, even though it does its job well. I don't like a Prius, even though it does its only job well. It gets people from A to B, doesn't consume a lot of fuel and isn't even uncomfortable. But... I guess that's a bit different than dismissing a car just because it doesn't achieve a certain amount of HP per litre or a certain displacement. That's what I like to tell myself, at least.

 

[Cano]

A 1998 Firebird Formula with stock 106K mile LS1. Intake, exhaust, springs, shocks, swaybars, and brembo front brakes from a CTS-V. Running a high 8 min lap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BlG-40CbX8

That was really cool to watch 👍

 

[McLaren]

A 1998 Firebird Formula with stock 106K mile LS1. Intake, exhaust, springs, shocks, swaybars, and brembo front brakes from a CTS-V. Running a high 8 min lap

Then it's not stock, esp. if it's running CTS-V gear which was already tested around the Nurburgring itself.

You can quit trying to prove a point, no 4th Gen F-Body is lapping low 8 minutes without a seriously fast driver & a lot of mods that would put it on the verge of a race car.

Driver of the firebird had some practice around the track in a spec Miata, but nowhere near the "hundreds of laps" you mentioned were required. Now those mods aren't even close the the one I originally described. If this amateur driver can drive that car around the nurb in 8 min, what will another car with more power and a better suspension do?

I didn't say hundreds of laps were required. I said the professionals have hundreds of laps under their belt, thus they're beyond more experienced.

And that video doesn't prove anything because it was timed from Bridge to Gantry. So a high minute 8 lap time actually translates to a low 9 minute lap time when he does a complete lap. Beyond that, it doesn't even actually post a lap time for you to base anything on.

You are only continuing to prove my point.

You seem to disregard f-bodies potential as a track day car which simply isn't true.

Never said that, either. What I'm saying for the last time is the car described originally with a driver who had zero Nurburgring experience did not beat a professional in a better engineered car. If we were talking about someone like Sabine Schmitz or Walter Rohrl behind the wheel of the said Camaro, then yes, I could easily believe it. But, it wasn't.

What I think is happening is since you own a 4th Gen. F-Body, you're probably taking offense to me saying it can't do what you claimed someone did with one.

 

[Harry6784]

Then it's not stock, esp. if it's running CTS-V gear which was already tested around the Nurburgring itself.

Only the brakes were from a CTS-V

That car is a far cry from being considered a "race car".

And that video doesn't prove anything because it was timed from Bridge to Gantry. So a high minute 8 lap time actually translates to a low 9 minute lap time when he does a complete lap. Beyond that, it doesn't even actually post a lap time for you to base anything on.

I already took that into consideration. The driver claims a 8:22 lap, bridge to gantry. 30 seconds is a generous amount of time to complete back straight, but add that and you get a high 8 min lap. Now you'll notice he started from the back straight, if he were doing a flying lap, like the professionals, he would be doing 150+ at the point where he entered the track and started the timer. So realistically that's a mid 8 min lap at least, but technically a high 8.

 

[McLaren]

Only the brakes were from a CTS-V

Perhaps learn how to use grammar correctly next time.

That car is a far cry from being considered a "race car".

Throw reading on to that as well.

Any F-Body in general with a low 8 minute lap (8:22 is not a low minute lap btw) would be on the verge of a race car.

I already took that into consideration. The driver claims a 8:22 lap, bridge to gantry. 30 seconds is a generous amount of time to complete back straight, but add that and you get a high 8 min lap. Now you'll notice he started from the back straight, if he were doing a flying lap, like the professionals, he would be doing 150+ at the point where he entered the track and started the timer. So realistically that's a mid 8 min lap at least, but technically a high 8.

Since he actually started before Gantry, we can take 5 seconds off the 30 second generosity. So he did somewhere around a 8:50 give or take complete lap time with the mods listed & a track-experienced driver. This only again, proves my point that the original claim wasn't even close to the low-mid 8 minute time posted & that for a F-Body to dip somewhere below 8:20 on a complete lap, it would need a bigger amount of chassis, braking, & suspension mods beyond what you listed on that car in the video to knock 30-40 seconds off the guess-estimated time; hence it becomes on the verge of needing to be a race car.

As for how generous the time is & the speed, you are forgetting the straightaway is an upward climb, & is also full of bumps. This can easily throw off estimated lap times. The average full lap time for a F-Body appears to be around the 9 minute mark with some suspension & brake modifications from the 2 examples you provided. Given the cars in that range, I could see that being very possible.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Displacement wars? Ok..

GM LS7. 7l displacement, 505bhp, 640nm
Ferrari 6.3l V12, 730bhp, 690nm.

Let's see how this one will go.

 

[Badasp5.0]

Displacement wars? Ok..

GM LS7. 7l displacement, 505bhp, 640nm
Ferrari 6.3l V12, 730bhp, 690nm.

Let's see how this one will go.

Until you compare cost.

 

[Slash]

Displacement wars? Ok..

GM LS7. 7l displacement, 505bhp, 640nm
Ferrari 6.3l V12, 730bhp, 690nm.

Let's see how this one will go.

Also has 4 less cylinders on the LS7.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Uh huh, but this is displacement wars, not cylinder and cost wars..

 

[Slash]

Uh huh, but this is displacement wars, not cylinder and cost wars..

Last time I checked, the number of cylinders changes displacement.